Types of Calvinists

[epistemaniac]

Thank you all for taking the time to educate me on Calvinism. Another question.

On page 74 of Stanley's book on eternal security the following is written:
"The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand".

The above seems to conflict with the Calvinist "Perseverence of the Saints". Does it conflict? Any ideas of what type of Calvinists Stanley is?

in this case, it's not so much a question of what kind of Calvinist Stanley is, it's rather, which side of the debate called "Lordship Salvation" does he fall? He and persons like Charles Ryie and Zane Hodge believe in "carnal Christians", that is, a person can be living a life of wanton sin and still be a Christian. These folks claim that if you have to make Christ the Lord of your life in order to be saved, then you are adding works to the salvation equation. On the other side of the fence are folks like dispensationalist John MacArthur who has written strongly against these folks, and from the Reformed camp, Michael Horton has written a helpful book on the subject. But, if you just google "lordship salvation", you will no doubt find much information on the subject.

blessings

 

[epistemaniac]

here is one link to the lordship controversy....

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/lordship.html

blessings

 

[pinoybaptist]

No need to preach to a lost and dying world then is there?

I disagree, peace

No need to preach to a lost and dying world because there is no more lost and dying world.
The gospel is to be preached to the living, not the dead.
Christ Himself said that when He told His disciples to follow Him, and let the dead bury their dead.

 

[pinoybaptist]

<snip>......
The above seems to conflict with the Calvinist "Perseverence of the Saints". Does it conflict? Any ideas of what type of Calvinists Stanley is?

I don't think Stanley is a Calvinist. Heard him say so himself in one of his programs.

 

[Brother Bob]

Pinoy;

there is no more lost and dying world.

Where did you get this?
There sure is a lot of missionaries, preachers and children of God, wasting their time if no one is lost. jeepers!!

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

No one lost I would think that God sure is happy.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Thank you all for taking the time to educate me on Calvinism. Another question.

On page 74 of Stanley's book on eternal security the following is written:
"The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand".

The above seems to conflict with the Calvinist "Perseverence of the Saints". Does it conflict? Any ideas of what type of Calvinists Stanley is?

Dr. Fuss,

There is a phrase in theology about the eternal security of the believer. It goes something like this, "Once saved always saved." That phrase embraces the notion that there is a permanence to the relationship established through faith in Jesus Christ. In my previous comments I warned you that anyone who teaches that you can lose your salvation teaches a works based salvation. Now if you are following my previous post you will see that not only does the notion of losing your salvation conflict the notion of P in the TULIP but every other notion as well. If you are totally and without question depraved, that is to say, fallen and not able to do anything to redeem or repair yourself then you are in need of a savior. That savior is Jesus Christ. Everyone is fallen and not anyone is able to save themselves. So if anyone is going to be saved Christ must do the work in salvation. The process of being called out of a fallen state and into a state of being redeemed is called election. That election is unmerited or unconditional. Those whom believe are atoned for and redeemed (Limited Atonement) and God will accomplish his desired objective in accomplishing his task of redeeming those whom believe, hence Irresistible Grace. Because of his ability to accomplish his desired objective there is not a chance of falling from grace, hence Perseverance.

In the given scenario the only explanation I can offer you that would subscribe to biblical teaching would be one of two things. Either the stated person is saved or they are not saved. If they leave the faith because they are not truly saved then they were never truly apart of the faith to begin with and therefore it would not be considered apostasy or loss of salvation but a failure to genuinely convert to Christ and hence a falling away due to a lack of substance in terms of the nature of their salvation, ie false belief. They profess to believe but they never actually converted to Christ, meaning there was no change of heart. The Bible teaches that we must repent of sin and believe in Jesus Christ as our savior. The biblical word for repent means change. Unless we change then we cannot claim to have truly believed in Christ. The second, option is that the person in question is saved and born again as a believer but has allowed sin to regain control and has fallen not from grace but from fellowship. The difference in falling from grace verses fellowship is one, grace, has to do with position, and the other, fellowship, has to do with the quality of the relation. So anyone whom has believed truly in Jesus as their Savior can claim a relationship with the Lord, and yet there is a variation of degree in terms of the quality of that relationship. I am pretty sure that Billy Graham has a better walk with the Lord than most, and I am pretty sure that a potty mouth beer drinking cigarette smoking deacon needs to clean his act up. Maybe God is working on that individual and we have no way of knowing what is in a man’s heart. I will tell you this, I would rather assume someone is not saved than that they, because if we assume someone is saved then they may not be and they may actually need to receive the gospel. Keep in mind the gospel is indispensable to leading people to the Lord. Our chief purpose in being created is to bring God glory, and an unregenerate or nominal Christian, ie Christian in name only, cannot do that. In order to bring God glory we must be converted and transformed. That is something that I am sure even Brother Bob will agree with me on.

 

[drfuss]

Pinoybaptist Writes:
"I don't think Stanley is a Calvinist. Heard him say so himself in one of his programs."


That seems consistent with the discussions here. Just to show how much I knew, before asking these questions I thought Stanley might be a hyper- Calvinist based on his type of eternal security belief. By the way, I didn't agree with Stanley's statement anyway.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

What I underlined in your previous post does not pertain to the effectuality (is this an English word ? Sorry, I was not born and raised in the language) of Christ's death and resurrection.

In fact, you are in need of correction here but it is entirely relevant to the efficacy of the atonement. If there is no actual atonement, then there is not a genuine offer. Therefore in order for the offer of salvation to be real the atonement has to be effectual. With a general atonement there is a potential atonement as opposed to an actual atonement. If a general atonement person believes that literally every human being is atoned for, that is that 1 John 2:2 states that Christ is the propitiation for every human being at all times then they without knowing it teach Universalism. If a person believes that Christ’s death was efficacious for all human beings at all times that mean that the wrath of God was appeased for all human beings and therefore they no longer stand condemned before God. If they no longer stand condemned before God, then by nature they are no longer Children of wrath or lost but have been granted a new status as righteous and holy before God. There are two soteriological options available within a biblical worldview, Universalism or Exclusivism.

But eternal salvation ? I have never found it to be an offer. It is given, to whoever its intended recipient is. And since the cross is past us, eternal salvation is now a reality to all for whom it was authored and finished by Christ.

Just as I often wonder about the term "lost".

Who is the "lost" ?

After the cross, no elect child of God can ever be considered "lost". At enmity with God, yes, by virtue of their fallen nature, before regeneration, but since each and every child of God will at some point be quickened by the Holy Spirit without use of any means, how can there be those who are "lost". Christ has found all His sheep, and have brought them into one fold, and Zion is back to where it belongs, with God reigning in it.

This statement of yours almost makes no sense, but let me take a stab at it. Overall, you are claiming that no one who is elect is truly lost because all of the elect are redeemed in Christ at the point of his crucifixion. If that is what you are saying then let’s just put that to the test of Scripture. For one if what you are saying is true then as you seem to imply no one was ever lost to begin with. And yet Christ explicitly states that he came to seek and save the lost (see again Luke 19:10). However, while it is true that the effects of the atonement remove the guilt of the elect they are still unregenerate and lost prior to coming to Christ. The fact that you make the work of Christ effective at a particular point in time also reveals your lack of understanding regarding the nature of the atonement. Christ was slain before the foundation of the world (See Ephesians 1:4, 1 Peter 1:20, and Revelation 13:8). So the atonement is accomplished in time but the effect was already known in eternity past.

No need to preach to a lost and dying world because there is no more lost and dying world.
The gospel is to be preached to the living, not the dead.
Christ Himself said that when He told His disciples to follow Him, and let the dead bury their dead.

Romans 3:23 states clearly that all are sinners and therefore in need of salvation. Romans 6:23 makes it plain that sin brings death and the way to escape death is through Christ Jesus. Just because someone is elect does not mean they are not by nature children of wrath. According to Isaiah 53 everyone is by nature prone to rebel against God and in fact does rebel against God. You want to talk about an offer of salvation read Romans 10…(ESV)

8 …“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for
“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”
19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”
20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,
“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”
21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

 

[drfuss]

J. D. wirtes:
"5. I don't think Arminians use the term "total" depravity, but if they do, it certainly does not mean the same thing that a cavlinist intends by "total". The Arminian does not believe that the Adamic corruption reaches into the soul (heart) of man, that he is morally, but not spiritually, corrupt. Calvinism maintains that man is corrupted in all features - in body, in heart, in spirit - and is therefore incapable of godliness in works or faith."

Calvinism maintains a man is corrupt in all features. What about a one year old child that dies? If he is not a part of the elect, does he go to hell?

 

[Jarthur001]

J. D. wirtes:
"5. I don't think Arminians use the term "total" depravity, but if they do, it certainly does not mean the same thing that a cavlinist intends by "total". The Arminian does not believe that the Adamic corruption reaches into the soul (heart) of man, that he is morally, but not spiritually, corrupt. Calvinism maintains that man is corrupted in all features - in body, in heart, in spirit - and is therefore incapable of godliness in works or faith."

Calvinism maintains a man is corrupt in all features. What about a one year old child that dies? If he is not a part of the elect, does he go to hell?

Hello Dr Fuss,

JD can speak for himself, but I would like to give my input.

A Calvinist says all salvation is in the hands of God. Therefore, we do not knew. It is all up to God.

As a freewiller that says salvation is in the hands of those that choose God on their own...what would you say happen to this child? Give Bible verse to support your view.

In Calvinism, God knows all things and knows when the child is born just how long he/she will live. God can elect who he wishes and we do not know who that is. Maybe God elects all babies. We just do not know.

Salvation is in the hands of God.


In Christ...James

 

[drfuss]

Hello Dr Fuss

Just how does this conflict?

I have that book somewhere. I have no idea how many points he believes in. I do not watch Stanley but maybe 2-3 times a year. I may have one other book by him..but I'm not sure. Anyway...I don't know that much about him to make that call. But..that quote i feel, all Calvinist would agree with.

Stanley says a person can walk away from the faith and still be saved. Do calvinists believe a Christian can walk away from the faith?

On Stanley's website in the 1990s, he said a Christian that is converted to Islam and works against Christianity the rest of his life, will still be saved. He said once a son, always a son.

 

[Jarthur001]

Stanley says a person can walk away from the faith and still be saved. Do calvinists believe a Christian can walk away from the faith?

On Stanley's website in the 1990s, he said a Christian that is converted to Islam and works against Christianity the rest of his life, will still be saved. He said once a son, always a son.

Yes..and i would agree with that. I'm at work right now and cannot post long post...or I can't today. Tonight ..late tonight, if no one else addresses this, I will prove this from the Bible. But for now..the key word is Son. Now if he was never a Son and only acted like a son to fool people...he was never saved.


BTW...

Because you hold to one point ...does not mean you must hold to all. When we say ...I'm a 5 pointer....does not mean we worship the writer of the points in all things that he said and one. It only means we agree with Him on the points he made. Just as I say in reply to many post..."I agree".

Brother Bob only holds to 1 point..and views himself as non Calvinist.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Hello Dr Fuss,

JD can speak for himself, but I would like to give my input.

A Calvinist says all salvation is in the hands of God. Therefore, we do not knew. It is all up to God.

As a freewiller that says salvation is in the hands of those that choose God on their own...what would you say happen to this child? Give Bible verse to support your view.

In Calvinism, God knows all things and knows when the child is born just how long he/she will live. God can elect who he wishes and we do not know who that is. Maybe God elects all babies. We just do not know.

Salvation is in the hands of God.


In Christ...James

Salvation is in the hands of God, but the Lord also is consistent with the Word and his own character.

Consider the following from Deuteronomy 1:

The Lord your God who goes before you will himself fight for you, just as he did for you in Egypt before your eyes, 31 and in the wilderness, where you have seen how the Lord your God carried you, as a man carries his son, all the way that you went until you came to this place.’ 32 Yet in spite of this word you did not believe the Lord your God, 33 who went before you in the way to seek you out a place to pitch your tents, in fire by night and in the cloud by day, to show you by what way you should go.

34 “And the Lord heard your words and was angered, and he swore, 35 ‘Not one of these men of this evil generation shall see the good land that I swore to give to your fathers, 36 except Caleb the son of Jephunneh. He shall see it, and to him and to his children I will give the land on which he has trodden, because he has wholly followed the Lord!’ 37 Even with me the Lord was angry on your account and said, ‘You also shall not go in there. 38 Joshua the son of Nun, who stands before you, he shall enter. Encourage him, for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. 39 And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

Here in verse 39 you have mention of the children being without knowledge of good or evil, ie not yet in willful rebellion. They are sinners by nature but not by choice and therefore they have not yet severed or gone astray in terms of their relationship with YHWH. This verse cast young children in the pre-fallen Adamic garden type of light, ie without knowledge of good and evil. Therefore I would conclude that children whom die are by nature elect and it was according to the grace of God.

 

[Jarthur001]

Salvation is in the hands of God, but the Lord also is consistent with the Word and his own character.

Consider the following from Deuteronomy 1:

The Lord your God who goes before you will himself fight for you, just as he did for you in Egypt before your eyes, 31 and in the wilderness, where you have seen how the Lord your God carried you, as a man carries his son, all the way that you went until you came to this place.’ 32 Yet in spite of this word you did not believe the Lord your God, 33 who went before you in the way to seek you out a place to pitch your tents, in fire by night and in the cloud by day, to show you by what way you should go.

34 “And the Lord heard your words and was angered, and he swore, 35 ‘Not one of these men of this evil generation shall see the good land that I swore to give to your fathers, 36 except Caleb the son of Jephunneh. He shall see it, and to him and to his children I will give the land on which he has trodden, because he has wholly followed the Lord!’ 37 Even with me the Lord was angry on your account and said, ‘You also shall not go in there. 38 Joshua the son of Nun, who stands before you, he shall enter. Encourage him, for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. 39 And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

Here in verse 39 you have mention of the children being without knowledge of good or evil, ie not yet in willful rebellion. They are sinners by nature but not by choice and therefore they have not yet severed or gone astray in terms of their relationship with YHWH. This verse cast young children in the pre-fallen Adamic garden type of light, ie without knowledge of good and evil. Therefore I would conclude that children whom die are by nature elect and it was according to the grace of God.

hello Baptist_Pastor/Theologian,

I have a long post in my head for you in addressing this, but you will have to wait till tonight. I type slow, and I'm at work. I hope you understand. I hope you can join me tonight. For now...God loves His own and will always care for them.



In Christ..James

BTW...You post well. I agree with MOST of what you say. However..I hardly agree with any man 100%

 

[pinoybaptist]

Pinoy;


Where did you get this?
There sure is a lot of missionaries, preachers and children of God, wasting their time if no one is lost. jeepers!!

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

No one lost I would think that God sure is happy.

Where did I get that ? Surely you jest, Brother Bob. What for did Jesus Christ come into the world ? He said He came to seek that which was lost. Did He find them ? Didn't He know where and who they were ?
Did He shed His blood for nought ? Was His mission a failure ?

What was finished at the cross ? For what did He enter into the Holy of Holies bearing His own blood ? What for did He sit down at the right hand of the Father if His task is not done ?

Show me one Scripture, just one, that says after the cross, there are still lost souls that we have to find for Jesus, that God is now dependent on fallen sinners to rescue fallen sinners, and maybe I will rethink my position. Show me another Scripture that says the mandate of the church is to save souls for Christ.

Is God Happy ? I am sure He is. God is so Happy that He gave His Son a Name above all names, that every knee in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, should bow down and call Him Lord.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Pinoybaptist Writes:
"I don't think Stanley is a Calvinist. Heard him say so himself in one of his programs."


That seems consistent with the discussions here. Just to show how much I knew, before asking these questions I thought Stanley might be a hyper- Calvinist based on his type of eternal security belief. By the way, I didn't agree with Stanley's statement anyway.

Not even a hyper-Calvinist. I think he's a mixed bag of Arminianism, semi-Pelagianism and a wee bit of Calvinism.

 

[Brother Bob]

Acts, chapter 16

30": And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

"31": And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

"32": And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

"33": And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.



Mark, chapter 16



"1": And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

"2": And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

"3": And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?

"4": And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.

"5": And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

"6": And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

"7": But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

"8": And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.

"9": Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

"10": And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

"11": And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

"12": After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

"13": And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

"14": Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

"15": And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

"16": He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

"17": And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

"18": They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

"19": So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.



2 Corinthians, chapter 4


1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[drfuss]

Jarthur001 writes to drfuss:
"As a freewiller that says salvation is in the hands of those that choose God on their own...what would you say happen to this child? Give Bible verse to support your view."

I do not believe salvation is in the hands of those who choose God on their own. Salvation is in the hands of the Sovereign God who provides salvation through His grace. God draws sinners to Him who can either repent and accept His grace or reject His grace.

Concerning what would happen to this child, I agree with Baptist_Pastor/Theologian who writes:

"You also shall not go in there. 38 Joshua the son of Nun, who stands before you, he shall enter. Encourage him, for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. 39 And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

Here in verse 39 you have mention of the children being without knowledge of good or evil, ie not yet in willful rebellion. They are sinners by nature but not by choice and therefore they have not yet severed or gone astray in terms of their relationship with YHWH. This verse cast young children in the pre-fallen Adamic garden type of light, ie without knowledge of good and evil. Therefore I would conclude that children whom die are by nature elect and it was according to the grace of God."

Also, Matt. 18:2-4, Luke 18:15-17, @ Mark 10:13-16 which says the kingdom of heaven belongs to people like little children. This strongly implies innocent little children will get to heaven.

 

[2BHizown]

If one is a true believer they are forever a true believer!
All other changes, 'leaving the faith', 'walking away from the faith', converting to Islam and what else are nonsense and only show that that one was never one of God's family to begin with!!

 

[Brother Bob]

You also shall not go in there. 38 Joshua the son of Nun, who stands before you, he shall enter. Encourage him, for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. 39 And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

Here in verse 39 you have mention of the children being without knowledge of good or evil, ie not yet in willful rebellion. They are sinners by nature but not by choice and therefore they have not yet severed or gone astray in terms of their relationship with YHWH. This verse cast young children in the pre-fallen Adamic garden type of light, ie without knowledge of good and evil. Therefore I would conclude that children whom die are by nature elect and it was according to the grace of God."

Where is this??