DrJamesAch
New Member
Oh wah. Get over yourself you self righteous dramaturge.
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Typical Calvinists’ Methods of “Debate” and Elitism
- Thread starter Benjamin
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Oh wah. Get over yourself you self righteous dramaturge.
Yeah, dad, we got to give you credit…you display some of “kindest” and most innocent demeaning we’ve seen around here! :thumbs:
Conveniently doesn’t seem to recognize his own smell though that when continuously accusing others of such things is still insulting and has the same demeaning nature as if it was given more honestly and direct.Word!!!
:thumbs:
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DrJamesAch
New Member
Another debate tactic of Calvinists-they commonly avoid the issues with Augustine doctrine and Calvin's life. http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=87103
saturneptune
New Member
Yes, I am quite guilty of avoiding issues concerning Calvin's life. Do you ever bother to read the threads, or do you just flap your mouth on a keyboard?
saturneptune
New Member
At least the person is honest.
Hey, hey Dr. A,
How many posts have you plagiarized today?
Hey Dr. James, is education free?
Or is there a fee for a foney degree?
It’s alright man, I’m not holding any grudges about it.
I understand you got a little carried away in the moment trying to help out your little buddy – ...and maybe were still a little upset at my joke. Still trying to decide if going to a “know-it-all” is an improvement or not along with a “smart aleck” and if I‘ve been excused on the “snob” part now though? :smilewinkgrin:
Nah, really, thanks.
saturneptune
New Member
It’s alright man, I’m not holding any grudges about it.
Still trying to decide if going to a “know-it-all” is an improvement or not along with a “smart aleck” and if I‘ve been excused on the “snob” part now though? :smilewinkgrin:
Nah, really, thanks.
Actually, Benjamin's posts are quite logical and civil compared to others on his side.
DrJamesAch
New Member
[anti-Semitic accusation deleted) Your posts about John Calvin are exactly what I was talking about, Calvinists who say they aren't Calvinists who some are honest enough to admit he was a heretic, but aren't honest enough to admit that they still follow the majority of that same heretics beliefs. Reformer, "DoG", SoG" whatever you want to call it, is still Calvinism.
Actually, the international bankers paid for my degree. It was reparation from the Holocaust that never happened. But they were discreet about it! They hid it in a Golda Meir lunch box and tucked it in the middle of the Protocols of Zion so I wouldn't get stopped by customs on my way back from a Bilderberg meeting in Belgium.
Interestingly, Hitler was fascinated with the supposed paradoxical relationship between Saturn and Neptune, an occultic view of the difference between physical and spiritual.
And by the way, something else of interest while you are attempting to call out people with "fake credentials"-why don't you tell us the difference between "third class petty officers" and E-3
http://www.hadit.com/forums/index.php?/topic/48598-cant-access/#entry283882
And wow, 2 terms as an IC Man and stuck at E-3??? Probably a Jewish conspiracy
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I find it highly humorous that so many in this thread argue about the argument rather than discussing the issue the argument is actually about.
If God is NOT Sovereign in salvation, who is?
And if God is NOT sovereign, does man have the ability to limit God?
If God is NOT sovereign, but some aspect of our salvation is based on our own works/faith/whatever then isn't Paul wrong when he said we had nothing to boast about?
If, on the other hand, God IS Sovereign in salvation, man cannot limit God, and God, and God alone, gets all the glory and praise for the salvation of every soul He redeems, and Paul was right when he said we have nothing of which to boast.
You may believe what you please, stand where you want to, and fellowship with the persons of your choice, but as for me and my house, we will serve, love, honor, and do all possible to bring glory and honor and praise to the Lord our God, and stand with those who do.
If God is NOT Sovereign in salvation, who is?
And if God is NOT sovereign, does man have the ability to limit God?
If God is NOT sovereign, but some aspect of our salvation is based on our own works/faith/whatever then isn't Paul wrong when he said we had nothing to boast about?
If, on the other hand, God IS Sovereign in salvation, man cannot limit God, and God, and God alone, gets all the glory and praise for the salvation of every soul He redeems, and Paul was right when he said we have nothing of which to boast.
You may believe what you please, stand where you want to, and fellowship with the persons of your choice, but as for me and my house, we will serve, love, honor, and do all possible to bring glory and honor and praise to the Lord our God, and stand with those who do.
The real question is does it limit the sovereignty of God when God opens up the heart of man and enables him to make a choice to accept God or reject God?
No, that is not the "real" question. The whole point is that God must first give man the new heart of faith thus enabling him to believe.
In his fallen condition he has already freely chosen to be the enemy of God. It is only by God's grace that a man is given the new heart of faith and a new desire to come to God through Christ.
If man can do that without the intervention of God then for what purpose was Christ's sacrifice?
If man can please God acting according to his own will then Christ died in vain.
You avoid honesty and truth-telling mixed in with little to no discernment of actual Church History.
No, that is not the "real" question. The whole point is that God must first give man the new heart of faith thus enabling him to believe.
In his fallen condition he has already freely chosen to be the enemy of God. It is only by God's grace that a man is given the new heart of faith and a new desire to come to God through Christ.
If man can do that without the intervention of God then for what purpose was Christ's sacrifice?
If man can please God acting according to his own will then Christ died in vain.
You have correctly posted on this.....The new heart is given by God,then it is still God who opens the heart.....not to accept or reject,but rather to exercise the obedience of faith.....
25 And I have sprinkled over you clean water, And ye have been clean; From all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols, I do cleanse you.
26 And I have given to you a new heart, And a new spirit I give in your midst, And I have turned aside the heart of stone out of your flesh, And I have given to you a heart of flesh.
27 And My Spirit I give in your midst, And I have done this, so that in My statutes ye walk, And My judgments ye keep, and have done them.
14 and a certain woman, by name Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, worshipping God, was hearing, whose heart the Lord did open to attend to the things spoken by Paul;
Lets get some scripture rolling in here... So i have more things to read and drink sweet tea to.
One thing I have always wondered and been curious about (and it should be an easy one for the cal team as its a popular verse).
John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
ok so we got all the definitions down, so without changing the definitions, and listing some 20 page textbook circumventing language. Can I please hear a rational explanation on why this would mean, a selected elect group.
One thing I have always wondered and been curious about (and it should be an easy one for the cal team as its a popular verse).
John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
ok so we got all the definitions down, so without changing the definitions, and listing some 20 page textbook circumventing language. Can I please hear a rational explanation on why this would mean, a selected elect group.
Benjamin
Those fallacies exist in your world....What you can watch is scriptural responses to your attemped attack...ready my friend:wavey:
I will modify this for the sake of clarity....[your premise is bogus]
Benjamin- {B} Since God determines all things that ever happen...did God determine the things Jeffery Dahmer did?
ANY BIBLICAL CALVINIST-{ABC} While God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass,He has also ordained the means to accomplish the ordained end. To say that God determines all things is an attempt to blame God for the sinful behavior of fallen sinful mankind.
So if you are really trying to ask if God is Sovereign over even the evil acts of sinful men we do not have too look too far, we can see the most evil act ever committed among men......
22 `Men, Israelites! hear these words, Jesus the Nazarene, a man approved of God among you by mighty works, and wonders, and signs, that God did through him in the midst of you, according as also ye yourselves have known;
23 this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified -- ye did slay;
24 whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it,
And again....the scripture provides all we need to know for life and godliness
like right here;
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
Notice my friend Benjamin...the evil acts of sinful men were a part of God's ordained purpose. Peter does NOT speak of carnal logic, debate fallacies, etc. He by the Spirit explains how the evil men rage against God and His electing Covenant love......HE DOES SO BY QUOTING SCRIPTURE...not logically debate formulas.....nope...he quotes from Psalm2
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
Why does he refer to the heathen rage as ...VAIN THINGS??
because they stand opposed to God's eternal purpose which cannot in any way be diminished...dan 4 psalm 115 deut 32
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
[ABC]-That would be Adam,whose fall into sin and death condemned the whole of mankind to be bound over to sin and death...Rom5:212-21
[ABC]- sure you can ...just stop whining about debate fallacies and reconcile all the scriptures together,not just the six or seven you misuse.here are some that might help get you started;
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.
8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
So then my friend, lay down the weapons of your warfare,serve God and confess Him openly:wavey:
Those fallacies exist in your world....What you can watch is scriptural responses to your attemped attack...ready my friend:wavey:
I will modify this for the sake of clarity....[your premise is bogus]
Benjamin- {B} Since God determines all things that ever happen...did God determine the things Jeffery Dahmer did?
ANY BIBLICAL CALVINIST-{ABC} While God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass,He has also ordained the means to accomplish the ordained end. To say that God determines all things is an attempt to blame God for the sinful behavior of fallen sinful mankind.
So if you are really trying to ask if God is Sovereign over even the evil acts of sinful men we do not have too look too far, we can see the most evil act ever committed among men......
22 `Men, Israelites! hear these words, Jesus the Nazarene, a man approved of God among you by mighty works, and wonders, and signs, that God did through him in the midst of you, according as also ye yourselves have known;
23 this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified -- ye did slay;
24 whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it,
And again....the scripture provides all we need to know for life and godliness
like right here;
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
Notice my friend Benjamin...the evil acts of sinful men were a part of God's ordained purpose. Peter does NOT speak of carnal logic, debate fallacies, etc. He by the Spirit explains how the evil men rage against God and His electing Covenant love......HE DOES SO BY QUOTING SCRIPTURE...not logically debate formulas.....nope...he quotes from Psalm2
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
Why does he refer to the heathen rage as ...VAIN THINGS??
because they stand opposed to God's eternal purpose which cannot in any way be diminished...dan 4 psalm 115 deut 32
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
[ABC]-That would be Adam,whose fall into sin and death condemned the whole of mankind to be bound over to sin and death...Rom5:212-21
[ABC]- sure you can ...just stop whining about debate fallacies and reconcile all the scriptures together,not just the six or seven you misuse.here are some that might help get you started;
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.
8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
[ABC]- No problem my friend...believers have always done that....
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
So then my friend, lay down the weapons of your warfare,serve God and confess Him openly:wavey:
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Lets get some scripture rolling in here... So i have more things to read and drink sweet tea to.
One thing I have always wondered and been curious about (and it should be an easy one for the cal team as its a popular verse).
John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
ok so we got all the definitions down, so without changing the definitions, and listing some 20 page textbook circumventing language. Can I please hear a rational explanation on why this would mean, a selected elect group.
The short answer;
The promise of salvation was always designed to go worldwide,as in....not the nation of Israel only...the children of God are found throughout the world.
9 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered
abroad.
The children of God scattered abroad...are those elected and given to the Son by the Father...
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
ok so we got all the definitions down, so without changing the definitions, and listing some 20 page textbook circumventing language. Can I please hear a rational explanation on why this would mean, a selected elect group.
"God, in this manner, loved the world (of men) that He gave His only unique Son that the ones believing in Him would never die but rather have life eternal."
To the Jews, God only loved the Nation of Israel, and considered Israel as "His only Son."
But now the Jews are being told it is not just those believing ones of the Nation of Israel, but those believing ones from all the nations of the world who are the sons of God.
I'm not sure what your point is? Are you saying that God does not love anyone but the Nation of Israel, or that gentiles must first become Jewish proselytes prior to being saved?
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Lets get some scripture rolling in here... So i have more things to read and drink sweet tea to.
One thing I have always wondered and been curious about (and it should be an easy one for the cal team as its a popular verse).
John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
ok so we got all the definitions down, so without changing the definitions, and listing some 20 page textbook circumventing language. Can I please hear a rational explanation on why this would mean, a selected elect group.
Part of the challenge is that your "definitions" are not necessarily correct. Now, I have to say, that John 3:16 does not suggest "a selected elect group." But, neither does it say that "whosoever chooses God will be saved."
Here's something I wrote on this forum back in March:
Here is the phrase in question in the Greek:
ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν
Here's a translation: ἵνα (so that) πᾶς (all) ὁ πιστεύων (the believing ones) εἰς αὐτὸν (in Him)...
"The believing ones" is a Present Active Participle, Singular Nominative Masculine. This will be important later.
In Greek, there must be agreement with the article (ὁ, in this case) and the participle (πιστεύων, in this case). And, as it stands there is perfect agreement.
Some people, notably the translators of the KJV, have misread the article (ὁ) and have desired to read "ὁ"as the relative pronoun "whosoever."
But, here's the problem: In Greek the relative pronoun is this: ὅ
Here's where things get very tricky and very deep.
The masculine singular definite article in Greek is ὁ. (Notice the "rough" breathing mark...it looks like an apostrophe over the letter)
The neuter singular relative pronoun in Greek is ὅ. (Notice the accent mark next to the rough breathing mark)
The neuter relative pronoun might be translated "whosoever;" the definite article cannot be.
The participle "the believing one" (which is essentially made plural by the "πᾶς) is a masculine singular participle. The relative pronoun that couples with a masculine singular noun is ὅς, not ὅ. ὅ is the relative pronoun that would be used for a neuter singular noun.
So, it is not possible to take ὁ as a relative pronoun because to do so would break the Greek grammatical rules related to gender. Therefore, this participle cannot be translated "whosoever believeth." The proper translation is "the believing one" or "the one who believes."
The text makes no statement in verse 16 as to how one came to believe (it actually does that earlier because "born again" is passive, meaning the subject cannot act upon himself and must be acted upon).
So, a general Arminian argument can be made from certain passages of scripture, this just isn't one of them.
Blessings,
The Archangel
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Your main "problem", SN, is that you've got too much common sense, something in short supply nowadays, it seems.
I would say the verse is quite clear that whosoever believes will be saved. Not who was predetermined. So then I would say if this is true, and the Bible doesn't contradict itself. The idea that some are predestined and some are not,(I would say) is incompatible with Whosoever will. (2 Pe 3:9)
The Archangel: Even still with your redefinition, it gives no restrictions for who can believe. The rendering of Whosoever believes is still solid.
Icon: I agree... salvation was meant to go worldwide, to the Jew first and then the Greek (Ro 1:16). The whole world. I must be missing something in your response :tear:
Ciao!
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