Typical Calvinists’ Methods of “Debate” and Elitism

[Benjamin]

Subject: 1. Why it is rather worthless and frustrating to attempt to reason with Calvinists on this board. {Calvinist elitist views} 2. Presentation of an example of the type of reasoning they typically resort to and to hear their (honest) opinions about these methods.

Claim: Typically, no valid logical reasoning is offered by the Calvinists, who engage in debate argumentation on this board, to believe their position is true.

Prediction: 1. If I present the fallacious and worthless methods of argumentation from the Calvinist being used on this “debate” board they will not acknowledge it was illogical nor even show that they recognize the types of arguments they present to be fallacious and thereby do not consider it worthless and meaningless toward the goal of drawing out the truth in debate. 2. Attacks will be directed at the person in this debate rather than on the position and the issues at hand.

Conclusion: The typical Calvinists “debating” on this board either don’t understand how to logically reason for the truth and/or disregard such ethics and they are just here to “argue” through repeating meaningless circular pattern arguments as their goal. IOWs they do not appreciate the value of logically reasoning on a debate board as being important nor do they demonstrate they think it ethically necessary to prove their position is correct in a debate. Calvinist typically rest on the elitist belief if others “can not see it” according to “their insight” and “their form of reasoning/arguing” then they are simply just wrong, nothing more is worthy of answering logically.

(1) Calvinist will deny or ignore that they are not being “logical” in their methods of “debate”.

(2) Calvinist typically merely point to endless proof-texting as the way to discover the truth because they do not value having the reasoning ability to know the truth.

(3) This is consistent with the Calvinist thinking that one cannot know the truth unless God gives it to them, therefore they are elitist.

(4) The Calvinists being elitist and arguing in that mindset is the core to what frustrates any practical attempts to debate with them.

(5) The Calvinists' goals in debate are not geared to be logical within any ethical philosophical standards.

 

[Benjamin]

A typical demonstration of trying to discuss practical reasoning with Calvinists as it begins upon pointing out fallacy in a typical Calvinist' argument:

A

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

I am one who denies "free will exists".Man does have a will ...self will...however it is bound by his nature...

Choice is choice....it has nothing to do with the condition of the will....

Bill C: “God determined all things that ever happen, He is Sovereign."
Bob A: "Did God determine the things Jeffrey Dahmer did?"
Bill C: "No, Jeffrey Dahmer did what he did because of his nature."
Bob A: "Who determined Jeffrey Dahmer’s nature?"
Bill C: "God did, He determines all things, He is Sovereign."

First and only response to fallacy pointed out:

Originally Posted by Benjamin
Bill C: “God determined all things that ever happen, He is Sovereign."
Bob A: "Did God determine the things Jeffrey Dahmer did?"
Bill C: "No, Jeffrey Dahmer did what he did because of his nature."
Bob A: "Who determined Jeffrey Dahmer’s nature?"
Bill C: "God did, He determines all things, He is Sovereign."

Originally Posted by Yeshua1

Wonder what Paul meant us us as mere pottery trying to tell th almighty just how he should run things more our way?

B

Originally Posted by Benjamin

Bill C: "Determinism is logically explained to be biblical by Calvinism."
Bob A: "How do you know?"
Bill C: "Because it’s in the Bible."
Bob A: "Why should I believe the Calvinist' view is logically seen in the Bible?"
Bill C: "Because the Bible was written by God."

Originally Posted by Yeshua1

maybe just easier to say because it is the truth?

Clarifying the points of A and B:
(Addressing the reasoning methods, to no avail, hence the topic of this thread)

Originally Posted by Benjamin

Exactly, but the point you clearly missed was “how” you say it is the truth. But it’s aight, didn’t really expect you to grasp the meaning, its deep, don’t hurt yourself by trying to get in over your head on this one…I momentarily forgot where I was at…nevermind.

Results:

Originally Posted by Mexdeaf

And people on here talk about the Calvinists being snobs and smart-alecks.

Originally Posted by Benjamin
Is this your way of calling me a snob and a smart-alecks?

Originally Posted by Yeshua1
maybe just easier to say because it is the truth?

Originally Posted by Revmitchell

Which is an unsubstantiated claim and not credible.

Originally Posted by Yeshua1
well, at least we can see how ben and van approach coming to this topic with an "open mind!"

Originally Posted by Benjamin

Well, that gets right to the heart of the matter at hand and settles it doesn't it now? Thanks for the fine demonstration of your methods of getting to the truth here.

Originally Posted by Revmitchell
You are not a cal so you are to much of a peon to have to prove anything to.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=86983&page=4

 

[Winman]

Calvinists know they are wrong, so they resort to games. They will do anything to change the subject and avoid the logical conclusions of their doctrine. It is very rare that you will run into a Calvinist who will honestly address the issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1ckoCBtXvU

 

[Revmitchell]

A typical demonstration of trying to discuss practical reasoning with Calvinists as it begins upon pointing out fallacy in a typical Calvinist' argument:

A





B


Clarifying the points of A and B:
(Addressing the reasoning methods, to no avail, hence the topic of this thread)


Results:








http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=86983&page=4

I hope you did not quote me because you believe I am a cal. That would be in error. And my statement was in support of what you said not against.

 

[12strings]

...busy now...will be back later to address inaccuracies...perhaps tomorrow morning.

 

[saturneptune]

I have been accused of many things, but elitist is not one of them.

 

[Revmitchell]

I have been accused of many things, but elitist is not one of them.

You are one of the very few cals on the board that are graceful instead of full of themselves.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Calvinists know they are wrong, so they resort to games. They will do anything to change the subject and avoid the logical conclusions of their doctrine. It is very rare that you will run into a Calvinist who will honestly address the issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1ckoCBtXvU

That video is hilarious! So much truth in just a 1 minute video.

The responses in the video are equally funny. If I had a nickel for every time I heard a Calvinist say, "You don't understand Calvinism", I could solve the debt crisis.

 

[Benjamin]

I hope you did not quote me because you believe I am a cal. That would be in error. And my statement was in support of what you said not against.

No, you brought up a very good point of Calvinists' elitism ...when it came to the opponent's clear evasion of addressing the argument (logically) and your point demonstrated the typical Calvinist mindset that they didn't need to prove anything, hence elitism.

 

[saturneptune]

You are one of the very few cals on the board that are graceful instead of full of themselves.

Thank you for that comment. It may be the root cause of my crossing swords with Rippon constantly.

 

[12strings]

1. Your Sample size is way to small to draw the conclusions you are drawing. It is very easy to find and cite a several calvinists who skirt the issue and don't answer questions adequately, or who simply state facts without proving them, or who attack their debate opponents...unfortunately its easy to find non-cals who do the same thing...even at our best, we all (cal & non cal) can be drawn into debate and forget to be civil and kind and logical...but it does not follow that all, most, or even the majority of cals do this same thing as a regular course of action, or that cals do not care about truth and only want to cause trouble and attack people.

2. Even if you were able to cite over 50% of BaptistBoard Calvinists posting in a certain way...it should be obvious that the very people who frequent the Baptistboard are more inclined to be argumentative than your average Joe, and that goes for cals, non-cals and everybody.

3. For Winman, It is obvious exageration, either unintentional or not, to say calvinists know they are wrong and are simply playing games...it is unfair to the thousands of calvinists who are faithful, godly church members and pastors, who are ignorant of our BaptistBoard triflings, and who are deeply comforted by trusting in a God who maintains control over every good and bad thing in their lives, even their eternal destiny.

 

[Winman]

That video is hilarious! So much truth in just a 1 minute video.

The responses in the video are equally funny. If I had a nickel for every time I heard a Calvinist say, "You don't understand Calvinism", I could solve the debt crisis.

Here's another one you might like;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcPFpgcIHhc

 

[Benjamin]

If I had a nickel for every time I heard a Calvinist say, "You don't understand Calvinism", I could solve the debt crisis.

Yes, very typical to hear that, it often reminds me of hearing a Pentecostal tell you that God told them how they’ve have been specially selected to receive the gift of speaking in tongues. – “sorry you can’t understand and see this.” = Elitism

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Subject: 1. Why it is rather worthless and frustrating to attempt to reason with Calvinists on this board. {Calvinist elitist views} 2. Presentation of an example of the type of reasoning they typically resort to and to hear their (honest) opinions about these methods.

Claim: Typically, no valid logical reasoning is offered by the Calvinists, who engage in debate argumentation on this board, to believe their position is true.

Prediction: 1. If I present the fallacious and worthless methods of argumentation from the Calvinist being used on this “debate” board they will not acknowledge it was illogical nor even show that they recognize the types of arguments they present to be fallacious and thereby do not consider it worthless and meaningless toward the goal of drawing out the truth in debate. 2. Attacks will be directed at the person in this debate rather than on the position and the issues at hand.

Conclusion: The typical Calvinists “debating” on this board either don’t understand how to logically reason for the truth and/or disregard such ethics and they are just here to “argue” through repeating meaningless circular pattern arguments as their goal. IOWs they do not appreciate the value of logically reasoning on a debate board as being important nor do they demonstrate they think it ethically necessary to prove their position is correct in a debate. Calvinist typically rest on the elitist belief if others “can not see it” according to “their insight” and “their form of reasoning/arguing” then they are simply just wrong, nothing more is worthy of answering logically.

(1) Calvinist will deny or ignore that they are not being “logical” in their methods of “debate”.

(2) Calvinist typically merely point to endless proof-texting as the way to discover the truth because they do not value having the reasoning ability to know the truth.

(3) This is consistent with the Calvinist thinking that one cannot know the truth unless God gives it to them, therefore they are elitist.

(4) The Calvinists being elitist and arguing in that mindset is the core to what frustrates any practical attempts to debate with them.

(5) The Calvinists' goals in debate are not geared to be logical within any ethical philosophical standards.

:laugh::laugh::laugh: looks like somebody has issues. Ahhhhh! :laugh:

 

[Rippon]

Thank you for that comment. It may be the root cause of my crossing swords with Rippon constantly.

LOL! The root cause for you "crossing swords" with me is because you are graceful. Ha,ha,ha.Oh man!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

LOL! The root cause for you "crossing swords" with me is because you are graceful. Ha,ha,ha.Oh man!

Oh oh oh.ha ha ha....you two are better than watching mud wrestling

 

[Benjamin]

:laugh::laugh::laugh: looks like somebody has issues. Ahhhhh! :laugh:

Great example of the mature and reasoned debate ethics and goals of the typical Calvinist! Thank you for your reply.

P.S.:

Oh oh oh.ha ha ha....you two are better than watching mud wrestling

Would you 3 Calvinists care to take this distraction elsewhere or is going to be another continuing example of the Calvinists' typical debate methods and attempts to derail the thread?

 

[Rippon]

Oh oh oh.ha ha ha....you two are better than watching mud wrestling

He brings Calvin and myself up every chance he gets! One never knows when the dual planet guy will strike!

 

[Rippon]

Great example of the mature and reasoned debate ethics and goals of the typical Calvinist! Thank you for your reply.

Lighten up there Ben.

 

[agedman]

1. Your Sample size is way to small to draw the conclusions you are drawing. It is very easy to find and cite a several calvinists who skirt the issue and don't answer questions adequately, or who simply state facts without proving them, or who attack their debate opponents...unfortunately its easy to find non-cals who do the same thing...even at our best, we all (cal & non cal) can be drawn into debate and forget to be civil and kind and logical...but it does not follow that all, most, or even the majority of cals do this same thing as a regular course of action, or that cals do not care about truth and only want to cause trouble and attack people.

2. Even if you were able to cite over 50% of BaptistBoard Calvinists posting in a certain way...it should be obvious that the very people who frequent the Baptistboard are more inclined to be argumentative than your average Joe, and that goes for cals, non-cals and everybody.

3. For Winman, It is obvious exageration, either unintentional or not, to say calvinists know they are wrong and are simply playing games...it is unfair to the thousands of calvinists who are faithful, godly church members and pastors, who are ignorant of our BaptistBoard triflings, and who are deeply comforted by trusting in a God who maintains control over every good and bad thing in their lives, even their eternal destiny.

Many have essentially said similar statements on posts at various times. Perhaps it is that some have wrapped up their whole esteem in what is or is not acceptable on the BB.

I have not seen the claim that the BB Calvinists are in an elite group. But that really isn't a bad thing.

Historically, it is that the elite camp is always set upon by the malcontents who wish to overthrow the right and proper elite.

It is the nature of the malcontent to use any exaggeration and slight to rise up to incite riot and pillage.

It is not within the character of the malcontent to regard the elite other than with disgust and personal attacks if an elite happens to find himself surrounded by a crowd of malcontents.

It is not in the method of operation for the malcontents to withhold judgment (warranted or not) at every opportunity upon the elite.

It is also the nature of the malcontent that there is no issue of the elite from which they will refrain from casting disparage, and, if there is no longer any elite, then surprisingly malcontents generally turn upon each other.

But, the elite have no such nature. They are more than happy to accept the high ground and often somewhat amused at the efforts of the lesser malcontents to emulate the elite's status.

Perhaps if the malcontents would spend more time being elite, and less as malcontents, then their cause would be less, and unity more.

Perhaps, but then did not Christ say that the world is no friend to the believer? I wonder why it is that the believer's consider it good to live and behave like the world?

And I bet you all thought I was posting about cal and non-cals.