U.S. Nears 1,000th Execution Since 1977

[canadyjd]

Phillip

I have made a general statement that it is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone. I didn't direct it to anyone personally, so don't take it personally.

My statement is based on what Jesus has taught us in scripture. I Tim. 1:16 is very clear. Jesus had mercy on Paul, the worst of sinners, that His example of perfect patience would be demonstrated to future believers. That means we are to have that same kind of patience with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul. We are to pray for them, and witness to them, and have perfect patience with them. To seek or support their death is not having perfect patience with them.

I can therefore stand on the inerrant, infallible Word of God, and say it is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

BTW, Moses was not allowed to see the promised land, not for the murder of the Egyptian, but because he was careless with his words and struck the rock twice. That was a strong punishment, but not applicable to this discussion.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Pastor Larry

You said, refering to Gen. 9 and the "death penalty"...

"It establishes a principle which God alone can abrogate. Unless God changes it, we are to abide by it."

Jesus changed the conditions for executing the death penalty in John 8. He was not just trying to shame these people. He was refering to the Old Testament Law concerning execution. (Deut. 17:7) The two witnesses were the first to throw stones, then the rest of the people.

Jesus changed that when He said, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first the throw a stone at her." No longer do the two witnesses cast the first stones. Only someone without sin can execute the death penalty. Since God is the only one without sin, then only God can execute the death penalty.

I hope that answers all the rest who are claiming I think God/Jesus are "unChristlike". Only God has the perfect wisdom and judgment to take a person's life, and He does so according to His perfect plan.

According to John 8, God has changed the requirements for execution. Are you going to abide by it? Or will you hang on to the culture of death that pervades this country in the face of the clear teaching of scripture?

peace to you

 

[Pastor Larry]

You still have the problem of God's clear words, plus his actions. All the wicked will be forever separated from him as a part of his justice.

We should pray for murderers, witness to them as we have opportunity, hope to see them saved, forgive them if they have sinned against us. But none of that is incompatible or contradictory to God's command to protect the sanctity of human life through capital punishment.

 

[canadyjd]

Pastor Larry

I see no teaching, clear or otherwise, from Christ, the apostles, or those associated with them that Christians are to seek or support the death of anyone.

I do see the clear teaching of scripture that Christians should not be like the world, that we should seek the salvation of all men (not the death of any), that we should have an attitude of perfect patience (just as Jesus did with Paul the murder) toward even the most violent offenders.

I have shown you scripture that clearly teaches that man cannot execute because of his sin, and therefore, only God can execute the death penalty because only God is sinless.

Please show me scripture that says Christians should seek or support the death of anyone. I dare, at this point, to be bold and predict you will find none, because there are none.

It is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

peace to you

 

[Matt Black]

I think this is another example of cross-cultural differences: on this side of the Pond you'll be hard-pressed to find many Christians in favour of the death penalty; to most of us, a civilised nation should not sanction judicial murder.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Jesus changed the conditions for executing the death penalty in John 8. He was not just trying to shame these people. He was refering to the Old Testament Law concerning execution. (Deut. 17:7) The two witnesses were the first to throw stones, then the rest of the people.

Gen 9:6 is not the OT Law. It is pre law, and establishes a timeless command (capital punishment) based on a timeless truth (image of God in man). The command of Gen 9 last as long as man is made in teh image of God.

]Jesus changed that when He said, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first the throw a stone at her." No longer do the two witnesses cast the first stones. Only someone without sin can execute the death penalty. Since God is the only one without sin, then only God can execute the death penalty.

This is a misuse of Scripture. Christ was not against "throwing stones." He was against hypocrisy. In that passage, the Pharisees were hypocrites, and that was the problem.

I hope that answers all the rest who are claiming I think God/Jesus are "unChristlike".

Nope. Doesn't even address it.

According to John 8, God has changed the requirements for execution. Are you going to abide by it? Or will you hang on to the culture of death that pervades this country in the face of the clear teaching of scripture?

John 8 didn't change Gen 9, and yes I will abide by it. I don't believe in a culture of death at all. To the contrary, the reason why there are so many murders is in part due to the lax judgment on it. Lack of capital punishment for murder is a disregard of human life. It is a slap in the face to the culture of life that we should embrace.

I see no teaching, clear or otherwise, from Christ, the apostles, or those associated with them that Christians are to seek or support the death of anyone.

Gen 9 is explicit.

I do see the clear teaching of scripture that Christians should not be like the world, that we should seek the salvation of all men (not the death of any), that we should have an attitude of perfect patience (just as Jesus did with Paul the murder) toward even the most violent offenders.

Yes, I agree.

I have shown you scripture that clearly teaches that man cannot execute because of his sin, and therefore, only God can execute the death penalty because only God is sinless.

I assume you are referring to your above comments. As I showed, you took them out of context to address something they weren't intended to address. Bad exegesis again has led to a wrong conclusion

Please show me scripture that says Christians should seek or support the death of anyone. I dare, at this point, to be bold and predict you will find none, because there are none.

Gen 9 is still in the Scripture.

It is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

Then Christ lied, and I can't accept that.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I think this is another example of cross-cultural differences: on this side of the Pond you'll be hard-pressed to find many Christians in favour of the death penalty; to most of us, a civilised nation should not sanction judicial murder.

I don't know of any Christians over here who sanction judicial murder. Many of us do, however, take the commands of God about the sanctity of human life serious enough to believe in teh death penalty. A civilized nation must protect the innocent by justice. Any nation that allows murder to go unpunished by death cannot be legitimately called civilized. At some point, the image of God in man has to mean something as God said it did. I can't understand the aversion to it.

 

[Ed Edwards]

In our country we kill 4,000 innocent children
a DAY - 365 days a year.

About the same time we started killing these
46 Million innocent unborn people,
we started killing 1,000 GUILTY.

There is no need for me to give another moment's
thought to these 1,000 guilty people worthy
of death. It is the DUTY of civil governments to
protect us from these GUILTY people and prevent
them from doing further crimes.

 

[Matt Black]

Show me where Christ said that Christians should be in favour of the death penalty - surely His conduct in John 8 demonstrates the exact opposite?

Imagine (if you can) the horror of being wrongfully convicted and sentenced to death. Spending years in prison appealing your sentence, begging for clemency, and ultimately being executed for a crime you did not commit.

That this has happened is all I need to know to oppose the death penalty.

One innocent executed negates any benefit, real or imagined, of capital punishment.

And it has from time immemorial been a premise of Common Law (the basis for the criminal law in the US as well as in Canada and the UK) that it is better for twn guilty men to go free than for one innocent man to be punished. It's one of those things like the concept of due process and innocent until proven guilty that tends to get forgotten.

Re Gen 9, well, the thirst and process of human sacrifice is a universal feature in society. And it's part of what Christ overcame. If we believe that Jesus Christ was God among us, that He submitted Himself as a sacrifice, thereby triumphing and inaugurating a new era in human history, what does that mean? Rene Girard shows how, although His sacrifice was prefigured many times in literature and folklore, when it occurred it was the human sacrifice intended to end all human sacrifices. I believe that Christ walked among us to bring an end to it. For a professing Christian ever to propose the death sentence in God's name strikes me as not only doubting that what He did was efficacious, but rejoicing that it was not.

[ November 25, 2005, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

 

[Phillip]

Our problem is NOT capital punishment, it is the appeal process in overloaded appeal courts.

When it takes twenty years to enforce the death penalty, then the punishment has less effect on the crime.

In countries where the death penalty occurs swiftly, such as removing a head in a public square (which may sound very un-civilized to you), it has shown to reduce murder.

The only difference I would make here is to do the death penalty sooner, and possibly allow public viewing.

 

[Pastor Larry]

His conduct in John 8 doesn't do any such thing. In John 8, Christ was addressing a hypocritical group of people who were condemning a woman about adultery.

There is no dispute that adultery was a capital offense under the Law in certain cases, and in John 8, Christ was abrogating that in that instance.

However, that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about capital punishment for murder, for stamping out the image of God. John 8 has absolutely nothing to do with that.

In Gen 9:6 God, Christ, the Holy Spirit authorized capital punishment for murder on the basis that the image of God was stamped out.

Now, is man still in the image of God? If so, then Gen 9:6 still applies.

 

[Phillip]

Does this make me uncivilized? No, it makes me respectful of life that was created in God's image.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
In our country we kill 4,000 innocent children
a DAY - 365 days a year.

About the same time we started killing these
46 Million innocent unborn people,
we started killing 1,000 GUILTY.

There is no need for me to give another moment's
thought to these 1,000 guilty people worthy
of death. It is the DUTY of civil governments to
protect us from these GUILTY people and prevent
them from doing further crimes.

Amen, brother! Do more civilized countries in Europe allow for killing the unborn?

 

[JamieinNH]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
It is the DUTY of civil governments to
protect us from these GUILTY people and prevent
them from doing further crimes.

Correct! But NOT by killing them. They have this place call Prison. Put them in Prison and throw away the key, but we should not be killing people.

Jamie
Exd 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

 

[canadyjd]

Pastor Larry

I have re-read John 8. I don't see Jesus calling the pharisees hypocrites, and that is not what the passage is about. I understand they were in violation of the Law by bringing the woman and not the man (therefore sinning in the administration of justice per Deut. 17:1+). That is the whole point. We are unable to administer the death penalty because of our sin. And yes, Jesus changed the commandment concerning the death penalty, even Gen 9, if it established the death penalty (which it doesn't) would now be changed because all men are sinful.

I have taken no scripture out of context. I have shown what they mean in context, which is different than the preconcieved notions that many have.

You keep saying that if it is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone, then Christ lied.

Show me the words of Jesus, not Gen 9, not Old Testament Law, (I have already addressed these in context)...show me the words of Jesus to His follows to seek the death of someone. Show me a New Testament apostle telling Christians to seek or support the death of someone. Not to be in submission to the government. That is not the same as saying "seek the death of...." or "support the death of..."

Why are the Words of scripture so hard to accept? I Tim 1:16+ is very clear. Perfect patience. Just like Jesus had perfect patience with Paul, the murderer. Seek the salvation of all men...that is pleasing in the eyes of God, our Savior.

Never once are Christians told to seek or support the death of anyone. It is unChristlike to do so.

peace to you

 

[Phillip]

Let's talk from a practical point of view, if not a religious point of view. You would rather pay seventy-thousand dollars (cost of prison and overhead for one prisoner, average) per year in tax dollars to keep them alive and let them suffer confinement for their entire life?

Doesn't this actually sound like cruel and unusual punishment?

Especially when MOST criminals who are given a choice of life without parole and the death penalty take the death penalty?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Correct! But NOT by killing them. They have this place call Prison. Put them in Prison and throw away the key, but we should not be killing people.

We can certainly do this, but not if we want to be obedient to God. That is the call we must make. God did not institute prisons for murderers. He instituted capital punishment. Why wouldn't you believe it?

 

[Phillip]

In the case of the woman, the men who brought her before Jesus were not government officials or they would have ignored Jesus. Jesus was being tested to see what He would say and He threw their hypocracy right back in their faces. Its an obvious story.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
His conduct in John 8 doesn't do any such thing. In John 8, Christ was addressing a hypocritical group of people who were condemning a woman about adultery.

There is no dispute that adultery was a capital offense under the Law in certain cases, and in John 8, Christ was abrogating that in that instance.

However, that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about capital punishment for murder, for stamping out the image of God. John 8 has absolutely nothing to do with that.

In Gen 9:6 God, Christ, the Holy Spirit authorized capital punishment for murder on the basis that the image of God was stamped out.

Now, is man still in the image of God? If so, then Gen 9:6 still applies.

Jesus did not say the words in Gen 9. He did however address the issue of the death penalty in John 8 in a way that was entirely in keeping with His mission. We are under the New Covenant, not the Old, and thank Jesus for that! For me, the NT is my standard and I can find no instance, nothing, nada, diddly squat of Christians ever implementing or being asked to implement the death penalty

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

Many of us do, however, take the commands of God about the sanctity of human life serious enough to believe in teh death penalty.

Whoa. That just broke my irony meter!