Ukraine War

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Good question!

OK…now for the follow up question. What’s Trumps plan of action now that he started a contentious fight with Zilinsky and caused him to walk out of the Oval Office , probably never to return?

So what’s the follow up plan?

What is the Stable Geniuses strategy…or was the plan all the time to split the profits of the ill gotten gains with Putin his buddy. Could ya be more transparent than that!?!

Dear Lord, if I was a fly on the wall of the European inner sanctum…. mostly all these G7 coalition countries, I’d be having some serious conversations about what’s going on with Trump and his allegiances and to his commitments to any country at all. As we speak, there are leaders of political parties in Canada now out right want to bar him from attending the up and coming G7meeting being held in Canada this year. Yea, and Germany, with Shady Vance’s scolding speech to them a few days ago….like, who the heck is this schmuck telling us how to operate?

 

[asterisktom]

It is very rare for me to comment on politics here. If America wants to elect a convicted criminal as President it is none of my business. However, Trump's negotiating tactic with Putin is certainly unusual. 'Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat.' One does not normally give away one's entire negotiating position before the talks even start. With regard to Trump's various other claims, please look at this article

Fact-checking Donald Trump's claims about war in Ukraine

President Donald Trump appeared to accuse Ukraine of being responsible for the war with Russia.

www.bbc.co.uk

Zelensky is a dictator in the same way as Winston Churchill was a dictator. Britain does not hold elections in wartime. There was a coalition government from 1940 until the end of WW2. And of course Zelensky could have ended the war three years ago: he could have surrendered.
There is a cartoon in one of the British newspapers today showing Trump as a poodle being led on a leash by Putin, but I forbear to post it.

I'm not surprised that you are linking to BBC. Your one-sided comments on this rather complex situation give the impression that your main go-to information source is BBC. That is just as bad as Americans hanging on every word from CNN or MSNBC. You really should look at a wider spectrum of sites for a better understanding.

I am not a real fan of Trump. He is a demagogue, but he is making a lot of good moves right now, mostly ones that are undoing the blunders of our previous faux prez. I have spent 8 months in Ukraine and have noticed that, even then (2020) there were plenty of people who despised Zelensky. To equate him with Churchill ... Wow.

 

[atpollard]

I'm not surprised that you are linking to BBC. Your one-sided comments on this rather complex situation give the impression that your main go-to information source is BBC. That is just as bad as Americans hanging on every word from CNN or MSNBC. You really should look at a wider spectrum of sites for a better understanding.

I am not a real fan of Trump. He is a demagogue, but he is making a lot of good moves right now, mostly ones that are undoing the blunders of our previous faux prez. I have spent 8 months in Ukraine and have noticed that, even then (2020) there were plenty of people who despised Zelensky. To equate him with Churchill ... Wow.

Why don’t you explain to me how Ukraine started the war (as Trump claimed) … because I didn’t need ANY news agency to make me scratch my head at that one. Russia invaded a sovereign nation TWICE and the country invaded “started it”? Really?

Did France and Poland start WW2 by being invaded by Germany? Should they have negotiated a peace in 1939 rather than drag the US into sending aid? Should the US have collected reparations from Europe rather than rebuild it?

Perhaps it is not too late. Trump can send the EU a bill with interest for WW2.

 

[asterisktom]

Why don’t you explain to me how Ukraine started the war (as Trump claimed) … because I didn’t need ANY news agency to make me scratch my head at that one. Russia invaded a sovereign nation TWICE and the country invaded “started it”? Really?

Ukraine broke their agreement to cease hostilities in 2014. That is when all sides signed the Minsk Agreement. Angela Merkel later admitted what the game plan was all along - “an attempt to give Ukraine time” so they could build up their military. And when they were ready they started rolling into those oblasts that had voted to rejoin with Russia.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ukraine broke their agreement to cease hostilities in 2014. That is when all sides signed the Minsk Agreement. Angela Merkel later admitted what the game plan was all along - “an attempt to give Ukraine time” so they could build up their military. And when they were ready they started rolling into those oblasts that had voted to rejoin with Russia.

Who invaded who…or is that whom?

And, I think that was a pretty good strategy that the Ukraine implemented…did it give them the time they needed? I liken it to punching first…gives ya the unfair advantage when an aggressive bully picks a fight.

 

[atpollard]

Ukraine broke their agreement to cease hostilities in 2014. That is when all sides signed the Minsk Agreement. Angela Merkel later admitted what the game plan was all along - “an attempt to give Ukraine time” so they could build up their military. And when they were ready they started rolling into those oblasts that had voted to rejoin with Russia.

Actually, according to the GOVERNMENT OF FRANCE (a third party without a vested interest), THIS is what happened …

Conflict between Ukraine and the Russian Federation broke out following a political crisis in late November 2013. Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych’s decision to suspend the process which would have led to the signing of an Association Agreement with the European Union caused a popular movement called the “Revolution of Dignity” (Euromaidan).

In Crimea, masked Russian soldiers without insignia took control of all the strategic points in the region on 27 February 2014. On 16 March 2014, a “referendum” for independence and attachment to the Russian Federation was held. The international community did not recognize this annexation.

At the same time, a destabilization operation was launched in eastern Ukraine. In March 2014, armed groups without insignia under Russian control supported demonstrators calling for the independence of these regions. On 11 May, the de facto entities of the “Donetsk People’s Republic” and of the “Luhansk People’s Republic” declared their independence following a “referendum”. This vote, held outside of the framework established by Ukrainian legislation and marred by a number of irregularities, was considered illegal by Ukraine and was not recognized by the international community (including the Russian Federation).

France supported the European Union’s sanctions in response to the illegal annexation of Crimea and the destabilization of Ukraine..

[source HERE]

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why don’t you explain to me how Ukraine started the war (as Trump claimed) … because I didn’t need ANY news agency to make me scratch my head at that one. Russia invaded a sovereign nation TWICE and the country invaded “started it”? Really?

Did France and Poland start WW2 by being invaded by Germany? Should they have negotiated a peace in 1939 rather than drag the US into sending aid? Should the US have collected reparations from Europe rather than rebuild it?

Perhaps it is not too late. Trump can send the EU a bill with interest for WW2.

Why was it our responsibility to rebuild it?

And actually, Trump should demand mineral rights….thats the least they could do to repay the USA right.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Actually, according to the GOVERNMENT OF FRANCE (a third party without a vested interest), THIS is what happened …

Conflict between Ukraine and the Russian Federation broke out following a political crisis in late November 2013. Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych’s decision to suspend the process which would have led to the signing of an Association Agreement with the European Union caused a popular movement called the “Revolution of Dignity” (Euromaidan).

In Crimea, masked Russian soldiers without insignia took control of all the strategic points in the region on 27 February 2014. On 16 March 2014, a “referendum” for independence and attachment to the Russian Federation was held. The international community did not recognize this annexation.

At the same time, a destabilization operation was launched in eastern Ukraine. In March 2014, armed groups without insignia under Russian control supported demonstrators calling for the independence of these regions. On 11 May, the de facto entities of the “Donetsk People’s Republic” and of the “Luhansk People’s Republic” declared their independence following a “referendum”. This vote, held outside of the framework established by Ukrainian legislation and marred by a number of irregularities, was considered illegal by Ukraine and was not recognized by the international community (including the Russian Federation).

France supported the European Union’s sanctions in response to the illegal annexation of Crimea and the destabilization of Ukraine..

[source HERE]

And what did we do to forestall the annexation and the rattling of a Sovereign country! Like who has possession of the Crimea ….

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm not surprised that you are linking to BBC. Your one-sided comments on this rather complex situation give the impression that your main go-to information source is BBC. That is just as bad as Americans hanging on every word from CNN or MSNBC. You really should look at a wider spectrum of sites for a better understanding.

I am not a real fan of Trump. He is a demagogue, but he is making a lot of good moves right now, mostly ones that are undoing the blunders of our previous faux prez. I have spent 8 months in Ukraine and have noticed that, even then (2020) there were plenty of people who despised Zelensky. To equate him with Churchill ... Wow.

Yea?!?! what good moves are you referencing.

 

[atpollard]

Why was it our responsibility to rebuild it?

And actually, Trump should demand mineral rights….thats the least they could do to repay the USA right.

It was not our “responsibility” to rebuild. The Marshall Plan was enacted because it was in the best interest of the US to rebuild Europe and Japan. The regions went from a history of war after war to approaching a century of peace and prosperity that has benefitted both THEM and the USA.

With respect to the war in Ukraine, we should not be supporting Ukraine‘s fight to remain free because it is economically profitable (we are not the world’s mercenary), but because it is the right thing to do. Thus it is right to send EQUIPMENT so that they can fight, but not US Soldiers to fight for them. However, calloused as it might seem, a war that weakens Russia and reduces its capability and incentive for further aggression into Europe does benefit the USA and NATO members. That makes it to our advantage to support Ukraine’s fight for maintaining independence.

Personally, I think a mineral deal with the USA to create a U.S.-Ukraine alignment of interests is a good idea since it would, long term, deter Russian annexation without creation a NATO trigger or placing NATO so close to Moscow (a point of antagonism to Russia). However, it is not something that the US is owed, just as NATO membership is not something that Ukraine is owed.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ukraine broke their agreement to cease hostilities in 2014. That is when all sides signed the Minsk Agreement. Angela Merkel later admitted what the game plan was all along - “an attempt to give Ukraine time” so they could build up their military. And when they were ready they started rolling into those oblasts that had voted to rejoin with Russia.

Tom…you go and live in all these countries that are conflicted so I have a suggestion, try New York City for a while. I’m sure Eric Adams could put ya up at a hotel…maybe even the Plaza.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It was not our “responsibility” to rebuild. The Marshall Plan was enacted because it was in the best interest of the US to rebuild Europe and Japan. The regions went from a history of war after war to approaching a century of peace and prosperity that has benefitted both THEM and the USA.

With respect to the war in Ukraine, we should not be supporting Ukraine‘s fight to remain free because it is economically profitable (we are not the world’s mercenary), but because it is the right thing to do. Thus it is right to send EQUIPMENT so that they can fight, but not US Soldiers to fight for them. However, calloused as it might seem, a war that weakens Russia and reduces its capability and incentive for further aggression into Europe does benefit the USA and NATO members. That makes it to our advantage to support Ukraine’s fight for maintaining independence.

Personally, I think a mineral deal with the USA to create a U.S.-Ukraine alignment of interests is a good idea since it would, long term, deter Russian annexation without creation a NATO trigger or placing NATO so lose to Moscow (a point of antagonism to Russia). However, it is not something that the US is owed, just as NATO membership is not something that Ukraine is owed.

Agreed

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It was not our “responsibility” to rebuild. The Marshall Plan was enacted because it was in the best interest of the US to rebuild Europe and Japan. The regions went from a history of war after war to approaching a century of peace and prosperity that has benefitted both THEM and the USA.

With respect to the war in Ukraine, we should not be supporting Ukraine‘s fight to remain free because it is economically profitable (we are not the world’s mercenary), but because it is the right thing to do. Thus it is right to send EQUIPMENT so that they can fight, but not US Soldiers to fight for them. However, calloused as it might seem, a war that weakens Russia and reduces its capability and incentive for further aggression into Europe does benefit the USA and NATO members. That makes it to our advantage to support Ukraine’s fight for maintaining independence.

Personally, I think a mineral deal with the USA to create a U.S.-Ukraine alignment of interests is a good idea since it would, long term, deter Russian annexation without creation a NATO trigger or placing NATO so close to Moscow (a point of antagonism to Russia). However, it is not something that the US is owed, just as NATO membership is not something that Ukraine is owed.

The Marshall Plan was enacted because it was in the best interest of the US to rebuild Europe and Japan. The regions went from a history of war after war to approaching a century of peace and prosperity that has benefitted both THEM and the USA.

And you know of course that would never be our current Presidents agenda in dealing with other nations…no rebuild, just take advantage and that’s my problem with this character….. no planning for the future, no development and no guidance with the thought process to making the enemy your eventual comrade. With Japan, we taught them about manufacturing efficiency and quality standards and we worked with Germany to the point they now shun past antisemitism and encouraged their design & manufacturing proclivities. My son works for Porsche and I know he would benefit from living in Stuttgart to develop the Germans eye for engineering and design for cars and motorcycles. Perhaps he could even source me some excellent beer varieties as we both are (beer aficionados).

 

[asterisktom]

Tom…you go and live in all these countries that are conflicted so I have a suggestion, try New York City for a while. I’m sure Eric Adams could put ya up at a hotel…maybe even the Plaza.

Aah, no thanks, brother. I lived in NYC for a couple years. That was enough.

And I am not saying that my living in Ukraine for those eight months made me an expert, but I did encounter a number of people who were more favorably disposed toward the Russians than to the Kiev government. Especially in Donetsk and Luhansk oblasti, which had very high percentages of votes in their respective plebiscites to break away from Kiev. The other two plebiscites were also legitimate, though Western sources predictably claim vote-tampering.

In Odesa we lived just a few blocks away from the Trade Union building where the ethnic Russians were cornered and killed by pro-Kievan thugs. They were either burnt to death or - those that jumped from the burning building - were clubbed to death.

It would be good for folks here to read the history of Ukraine. I mean well before the Soviet Empire. What used to be called "THE Ukraine" was, from the beginning, considered part of Russia. The very word means "borderland"or "frontier zone". The term dates back to the 13th century. The word, then, implies that the territory was part of Russia.

Whether or not Ukraine had the right to be separate country is a separate question, but this background needs to considered. Many people here refuse to see beyond the Soviet era.

Whenever I see people writing about the Soviet "invasion" of Ukraine I have a good indication that they are getting their information from only one side. Putin, also, has a history of evildoing in his past, but his actions here aren't.

 

[asterisktom]

Martin Marprelate wrote:

'Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat.'

I like that quote. It could be directed to either side, however. I was surprised to see it here in Latin. I know that it is not an ancient saying, going only as far back as Longfellow, I think. Maybe a little earlier. The better known English is:

"Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad."

The question in this discussion is - Which is the mad side?

 

[atpollard]

The question in this discussion is - Which is the mad side?

At this point, all three … Putin, Zelenskyy and Trump … but only one of those three has the power to STOP invading Ukraine.

 

[Mikey]

Trump has either delusions of grandeur or a Messiah complex. Possibly both.
Alienating your friends and sucking up to your enemies is not smart. Trump may think that Russia is an ocean away from the USA, but in fact the two are only separated by the Bering Strait.
Also, stand by for a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. If Xi Jinping thinks that America won't stand by her allies, then not only Taiwan but also South Korea, Japan and elsewhere in the region can be bullied, if not invaded.

I have to disagree, countries are not friends, they may be allies butr not friends. Coutries become allies based on shared benefit, allies come and they go. Throughout history allies have become enemies and enemies have become allies.

 

[JonC]

You nailed that one down correctly….in fact, ya hit it with a ball pean hammer! I would ask my fellow Americans, especially those of working class backgrounds, what is this guy really doing to impact your lives? You see, he operated out of the New York and New Jersey Metro area long before he ever had political aspirations. I also made my living in that same metro area working in the building construction trades and worked on quite a few Trump building projects. My father in law who was born and bred Swabian German worked for Fred Trump earlier than my tenure, so he knew the family and their rise to power in Queens, the Bronx, Brooklyn and Staten Island. His name BTW is Otto Frederick (Fred) and so Fred Trump had a like for the guy. Together my FIL and I would match notes at the kitchen table about the Trumps, the Unions (mostly Italian mob), current projects etc, so we saw first hand & I participated in “The Donald’s “ activities. In order to succeed in that cut throat industry you must be a ruthless SOB and Fred Trump taught his son well. Payments would be held from contractors for excuses like “you didn’t do the work to my satisfaction” but not to Fat Tony and that family group, normal criminal activity for NYC…allot of bad language words commonly used, allot of bribes, drugs and alcoholism…common occurrence things not normally talked about on Baptist Boards (LOL). The Donald’s legal team in the 1970’s & 1980’s was headed up by Roy Cohen and ohhh boy, let’s just say ole Roy is in hell today teaching Satan best practices.

So there ya have it, America that’s your current President …. Grifter and scum bag don’t even begin to scratch the surface. I’ll tell ya what, go and google the interview of Donald’s in the family’s history with his nephew and take a listen. Pay particular attention to his advice to his nephew about his crippled son. Even I was shocked. Sooo, there ya have it….Joe Biden is the son of a Scranton used car salesman and it shows and Donald J. Trump is the son of a Jamaica Queens NY Red Brick Building Contractor (and it shows it). Social climber done well for himself. Any wonder he is what he is?

I agree with Trump on Ukraine. Europe (especially the UK) has just been using the Ukraine as a proxy. The goal is to weaken Russia via a third party, not to secure any type of peace. The US needs to look after the interests of its citizens.

Ukraine was one of the founding republics of the Soviet Union. I get the strategic importance of the area. But at the same time we have to prioritize resources.

How much should American citizens send to support the war?

I agree with Trump that a vested US economic interest in both Russia and Ukraine would have a better chance of securing a peace than would sending billions of taxpayers money to help Ukraine fight a war it can never win. Zelenskyy was looking for gifts to keep fighting (like when Biden accused him of being ungrateful for what he sent when Zelenskyy immediately asked for more).

The UK, if it was not just looking to use Ukraine as a weapon without regard for human life would also be seeking diplomatic solutions.

 

[JonC]

I have to disagree, countries are not friends, they may be allies butr not friends. Coutries become allies based on shared benefit, allies come and they go. Throughout history allies have become enemies and enemies have become allies.

That was the issue with Ukraine and Russia. We would have the same issue should Mexico seek to be close alies with China (we did have issues with Panama joining the BRI). Russia's concern is not unreasonable. Ukraine's desires to join the EU and NATO is also not unreasonable. But it moves alliances. For Russia it puts a greater enemy at its doors. For Ukraine their enemy is already through the door.

 

[Christforums]

I am underwhelmed every time Donald kisses the ring of a despot. I am doubly underwhelmed that he blames Ukraine for being invaded by Russia. By that same logic, we would have peace in the Middle East if only the Jewish people would agree to die like the Palestinians keep asking.

Fortunately, this is the last time I have to vote for that buffoon to prevent a liberal democrat from taking the office (I NEVER voted for Trump in a primary).

The irony is that Obama rid military institutions of Just War Theory by Thomas Aquinas. And Trump reinstated the doctrine, however, the interest of the U.S. seemingly has come down to resources for a return investment. I too avoid damage control for any party. One of things I heard loud and clear from the Ukraine President is that this or that Political Party comes into office, the USA is unstable, and nobody seemingly wants to be accountable for the other party when waving the Red, White, and Blue.