unaccredited degrees... whats the point?

[RG2]

First, thank you for making this new thread as we started to really get off topic in that other thread. I was going to suggest it myself except I was really under the weather yesterday.

I think the issues isn't with non-regionally accredited schools as we've found there are some really good bible schools that are accredited by other CHEA/USDE approved accreditation organizations. The problem is with schools that aren't accredited at all, or are accredited by organizations that aren't approved by the CHEA/USDE. It was brought up in the previous thread, if you make the argument against needing a CHEA/USDE accreditation why would you get "accredited" by a seemingly "bogus" non approved entity.

 

[Ruiz]

Ruiz,

I think you answered your own question. If someone only wants to again scholarship, that is possible through unaccredited routes. However, those people who are scholars are few and far between. However, a degree is a means of recognition of study. Most people want to be recognized for the credential. Some churches may not question unaccredited degrees, I would.

There are some exception unaccredited institutions that have wonderful scholarship, but those, as previously mentioned, are few and far between. Even if a person has a degree from one of those exceptional institutions, what can he or she do with it? He or she will not be able to teach at any seminary, college, or secular institution. He or she may have more difficulty working in a church, than if he or she went to an accredited institution.

Accreditation is basically a standard a institution has to hold. If a school doesn't have a standard, how does a person know its up to par?

I have never been asked if my degrees came from an accredited source when interviewing with churches. Granted, teaching is the big issue and that I will concede and stated initially, but I think accreditation is overated having both taught, worked in academics going through accreditation and having obtained my degrees in them. There are diploma mills on both side of the accreditation process.

Since ministry is not a professional enterprise, there is much greater freedom that is granted. Thus, people like RC Sproul can have a degree from an unaccredited source and no one really cares except a few in academia.

While I have a Seminary degree, I also have a professional degree (MBA). When I talk to people working towards their MBA, I alway recommend an accredited school. Yet, I do not see the same in the church sphere to compel me to say the same thing.

 

[StefanM]

Since ministry is not a professional enterprise, there is much greater freedom that is granted. Thus, people like RC Sproul can have a degree from an unaccredited source and no one really cares except a few in academia.

To be fair, though, RC Sproul has two degrees from accredited schools in the U.S., plus the doctorandus credential from the Free University of Amsterdam (note: this is not a doctorate; it's like a master's degree). The only unaccredited credential is from Whitefield. I'm not sure why he chose to go that route, though.

 

[StefanM]

First, thank you for making this new thread as we started to really get off topic in that other thread. I was going to suggest it myself except I was really under the weather yesterday.

I think the issues isn't with non-regionally accredited schools as we've found there are some really good bible schools that are accredited by other CHEA/USDE approved accreditation organizations. The problem is with schools that aren't accredited at all, or are accredited by organizations that aren't approved by the CHEA/USDE. It was brought up in the previous thread, if you make the argument against needing a CHEA/USDE accreditation why would you get "accredited" by a seemingly "bogus" non approved entity.

Here's why: to deceive. There is no shame in declaring, "We are an unaccredited institution. For (X, Y, Z reasons), we have decided not to pursue accreditation. Be advised that your credits may not transfer to another institution." I still don't think these schools should offer doctorates, but I could see a place for undergraduate degrees (and possibly graduate, if they are truly at that level).

What is deceitful is when they claim bogus accreditations or say they are "fully accredited" through some random hole-in-the-wall "agency."

Regional accreditation is generally the most accepted accreditation, but other accreditors, such as TRACS and DETC, are legitimate.

 

[StefanM]

I have never been asked if my degrees came from an accredited source when interviewing with churches. Granted, teaching is the big issue and that I will concede and stated initially, but I think accreditation is overated having both taught, worked in academics going through accreditation and having obtained my degrees in them. There are diploma mills on both side of the accreditation process.

Are your degrees from accredited schools? It is possible that the churches already knew they were accredited before they interviewed you.

 

[Ruiz]

To be fair, though, RC Sproul has two degrees from accredited schools in the U.S., plus the doctorandus credential from the Free University of Amsterdam (note: this is not a doctorate; it's like a master's degree). The only unaccredited credential is from Whitefield. I'm not sure why he chose to go that route, though.

The University of Amsterdam was not accredited. Yet, the obvious rebuttal is that no European schools are accredited and that they are evaluated individually and could be recognized as a school meeting the criteria for accreditation, which is a route I considered.

For teaching purposes, your Masters and/or Doctorate must be accredited. Thus, an undergraduate degree would not count (Westminster is out). Pittsburgh was accredited after Sproul attended this school. While the accreditation does impact past students, it was not while he attended or for several years after.

 

[StefanM]

First, you are missing a bit here.

DETC is held in way higher regard than TRACS. The majority of regionally accredited universities will take some transfer credits from DETC, and will also allow entrance into their Grad programs with an Undergrad from DETC. This is not true of TRACS. TRACS is the "bottom of the barrel" in terms of legitimate accreditation. Nevertheless, it is legitimate.

I'm not sure this is the case. I think you might be overestimating the acceptance of DETC credits. In my experience, if a school is willing to accept non-RA credits, then they tend to be open to DETC and TRACS. This is anecdotal, however, so I recognize my mileage may vary.

Second, ATS is no longer the "Gold Standard." Now, if you meant "Regionally accredited TOGETHER WITH ATS" is the gold standard, then I would agree with you. However, lack of ATS accreditation will not keep you out of any program that I know, if the degree is RA. On the other hand, ATS only (and there are some) degrees, will absolutely keep you out of some Universities and jobs.

You are correct. The vast majority of ATS-accredited schools have both, however.

RA is the Gold Standard. ATS is a nice addition, that is quickly going the way of the dinosaurs...

ATS is a joke. I can't fathom why conservative/evangelical schools would want to affiliate with this accreditation agency. I would recommend either sticking completely with RA or pioneering an alternate evangelical accreditor. IMO, a theological accreditor has no real legitimacy when it accredits schools for ministry ranging from Westminster Seminary-PA to The Starr King School for the Ministry (a Unitarian-Universalist school).

 

[TCGreek]

To be fair, though, RC Sproul has two degrees from accredited schools in the U.S., plus the doctorandus credential from the Free University of Amsterdam (note: this is not a doctorate; it's like a master's degree). The only unaccredited credential is from Whitefield. I'm not sure why he chose to go that route, though.

Someone of RC Sproul's status doesn't need to get caught up in our accredited and unaccredited squabbles.

An accredited degree, as good as it is, does not make a person.

 

[RG2]

There are diploma mills on both side of the accreditation process.

True, I remember seeing a documentary about "for profit" schools (e.g. like University of Phoenix and the like). I remember seeing a thing about how the investors like to purchase schools that already have their accreditation because they can make more money off of it So basically a lot of them are buying smaller already regionally accredited schools that are in financial trouble and turn them into for profit universities. Unfortunately it turns a lot of them into diploma mills in the process.

 

[Ruiz]

Are your degrees from accredited schools? It is possible that the churches already knew they were accredited before they interviewed you.

Is it possible they knew? Yes! However, I doubt everyone knew it was accredited and there were a couple of years my school was on probation due to high debt. As well, in my professional career, I have been required to submit my transcripts. I have never been asked for these in Christian ministry. I think there is a major difference between the two.

Personally, I do not see this as an issue for churches. If it is, I would highly caution them because the qualifications of an Elder is not to graduate from seminary from an accredited school.

Personally, I would prefer someone graduating from a Seminary with strong Elder/Pastor influence and oversite (outside the qualifications in I Timothy 3). This would be a higher criteria to me than merely a graduate of a school.

 

[GraceClarified]

To be fair, though, RC Sproul has two degrees from accredited schools in the U.S., plus the doctorandus credential from the Free University of Amsterdam (note: this is not a doctorate; it's like a master's degree). The only unaccredited credential is from Whitefield. I'm not sure why he chose to go that route, though.

Whitefield is very well respected within the Reformed community. Learning is learning regardless of what a man made institution thinks. I know of 2 pastors that attended Whitefield and they both came out with a very strong understanding of the Holy Scriptures and Theology.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

Whitefield is very well respected within the Reformed community. Learning is learning regardless of what a man made institution thinks. I know of 2 pastors that attended Whitefield and they both came out with a very strong understanding of the Holy Scriptures and Theology.

Many say the same thing about Louisiana Baptist University and I suspect it may be true, and I know of others, but some of these institutions are out and out scams. Isn't that the bare minimum that accreditation is supposed to guard against?

 

[revmwc]

This concerns me a little bit, depending on the level of work...

9 courses in that short of a period of time causes me to wonder a little bit here. It seems the work is too easy, but again I do not know. I've never been to the institution you speak of. However, staying on point, have you had any real issue finding work in a church or educational institution?

I took american history 2 units from the 1400's to 1860 and 1860 to the present. The workbooks covered 300 questions each from and 5 papers of 1 to 5 pages each. Then memorizing the workbook questions to answer 50 to 70 questions on the final. So too science, English for composition was a workbook and papers one paper being at least 3000 words. Then a final. 3 book reports and biographies for the arthors. Three book reports and biographies on the authors and a paper on a favorite poem and a bio on the arthor. Sociology same workbook, papers and a final, Bible atlas a workbook, 5 maps 3 papers and a final, as well as the elective read the book do the workdbook, papers and a final exam. All workbooks and papers had to be submitted at one time, then the final sent with the retuned work books. To take the finals you must go to a person outside your home and have them sign that you took the test without notes or the testbook.

 

[revmwc]

Credit for reviewing a catalog seems questionable.

You had to answer 30 or so questions about the school as you went through the catalog. 2 hours credited for an afternoon of reading.

 

[revmwc]

This concerns me a little bit, depending on the level of work...

9 courses in that short of a period of time causes me to wonder a little bit here. It seems the work is too easy, but again I do not know. I've never been to the institution you speak of. However, staying on point, have you had any real issue finding work in a church or educational institution?

Haven't tried recently. Pastored a church for five years before I received my associates. Have served in various ministry positions for well over 25 years.

I was filling a pulpit for a church ofr 2 months in December and January, was on their very very short list when the Lord put the brakes on and I had to go on the road to work. Just received my Bachelors degree in Biblical studies, was going to get my Masters but you guys has just about talked me out of it with all this. Why get a degree when even if it from an accredited school really does nothing for anyone.

Accredidation just means some board has examined them and received $100,000 of thousnads of dollars to approve them as an accredited school. then if the state hasn't accredited them the price goes even more for state accredidation. Just so they can charge the students more to have the scam of accreidation. Someone somewhere is getting rich off of all this and isn't the schools.

A man called by the Lord will be given the gift to Pastor and Teach, the only reason I even finished the Bachelors is because so many chucrches want at least that as a minimum, but now if they start asking for accrediation that will throw many a pastor out their pulpits.

So why even get a degree it really does not do anything for you.

Thanks for helping me decide not to spend anymore of the Lord's money at a Biblical universtiy and wasting it. I am far too old to start all over and I can't afford to go to normal university classes to get the degree. Since I have a job that pays me very well I will continue to fill pulpits as I can and not worry about going back to pastoring. Was thinking of trying to go full time thanks for helping to see that it can't be done without the Proper Degree from the proper school. No matter how good the academics and how much yo uwork late at night and on weekends studying, wiriting and taking finals.

Thanks All

 

[StefanM]

You had to answer 30 or so questions about the school as you went through the catalog. 2 hours credited for an afternoon of reading.

That doesn't make it any better, unless you are speaking in terms of "clock" hours. Two undergraduate credit hours for a 30 question review through a catalog doesn't seem right.

 

[revmwc]

That doesn't make it any better, unless you are speaking in terms of "clock" hours. Two undergraduate credit hours for a 30 question review through a catalog doesn't seem right.

Thanks I won't spend anymore money for any more degrees since you are saying that the only hours that count for me are about 20 and I am not going to start that far back I am too old and can't afford to go to classes everyday or evening and I am always on the road.

2 course hours for let me what the term was, orientation. All schools give credit for orientation don't they? The orientation consisted of reading throguh the catalog and answering the questions. What was your orientation like and how many hours did you get for it?

 

[StefanM]

Accredidation just means some board has examined them and received $100,000 of thousnads of dollars to approve them as an accredited school. then if the state hasn't accredited them the price goes even more for state accredidation. Just so they can charge the students more to have the scam of accreidation. Someone somewhere is getting rich off of all this and isn't the schools.

Not necessarily. The application fee for the DETC is only $3000. The re-accreditation fee is $1000. Regional accreditation is more expensive, to be sure, but it is also much more difficult to acquire.

A man called by the Lord will be given the gift to Pastor and Teach, the only reason I even finished the Bachelors is because so many chucrches want at least that as a minimum, but now if they start asking for accrediation that will throw many a pastor out their pulpits.

I would think that the expectation would be a legitimate degree, irrespective of accreditation.

So why even get a degree it really does not do anything for you.

Thanks for helping me decide not to spend anymore of the Lord's money at a Biblical universtiy and wasting it. I am far too old to start all over and I can't afford to go to normal university classes to get the degree. Since I have a job that pays me very well I will continue to fill pulpits as I can and not worry about going back to pastoring. Was thinking of trying to go full time thanks for helping to see that it can't be done without the Proper Degree from the proper school. No matter how good the academics and how much yo uwork late at night and on weekends studying, wiriting and taking finals.

Many accredited institutions will offer conditional admission to those with unaccredited undergraduate degrees. You may want to look into that.

You said two things: "I have a job that pays me very well" and "I can't afford to go to normal university classes." You can pursue accredited degrees online without having to quit your job. This could be an option for you.

 

[revmwc]

Not necessarily. The application fee for the DETC is only $3000. The re-accreditation fee is $1000. Regional accreditation is more expensive, to be sure, but it is also much more difficult to acquire.

revmwc The nthey don't have the accredidation required by the state and recognized by any major companies nor public institutions. The school for full accredidation must be accredited by the state or state recognized. Most of the ones we are talking are for christian institutions and arn't recognized by the state. To be recognized and fully accredited by the state you must follow their rules and that would include the guidlines for state institution on hiring.

I would think that the expectation would be a legitimate degree, irrespective of accreditation.

revmwc
But what is being said here is if they aren't accredited then they aren't legitimate degrees. The only legitimate degree that would fall in place here is one from a state run universtiy or schools like Baylor and Rice that the state recognizes as having the right hiring pratices.

So why even get a degree it really does not do anything for you.

revmwc
That's what I mean you are just paying for a piece of paper that says you did the work. Accredited by the state just means the state recognizes the school for the money they paid them. Since no degree benefits unless it is from a state accredited school why get one.

Many accredited institutions will offer conditional admission to those with unaccredited undergraduate degrees. You may want to look into that.

revmwc
No they won't I have tried, the one I tried at assessed me at needing over 100 hours too many for me to even hope I could do in my liftime.

You said two things: "I have a job that pays me very well" and "I can't afford to go to normal university classes." You can pursue accredited degrees online without having to quit your job. This could be an option for you.

I would be 3 or 4 years getting a degree from one of these and I haven't the desire nor the time I want to spend the money on for that since I do have a good paying job I have no need for taht type of degree.

 

[Ruiz]

So why even get a degree it really does not do anything for you.

The degree does do something for you. You gained knowledge and earned a degree from an Institution. The quality of that institution is not based upon accreditation, but based upon the institution itself.

Thus, to say that a government organization is the final say on whether an institution is quality or not is fallacious.

Rather, there is more freedom in non-accredited schools. In undergraduate, my school had to change their creation course into an apologetics class from science. So, there are limitations

I have never heard of one church refusing to talk to a person because of accreditation. I have heard of people refusing for belonging to a seminary that they disagree with or not a part of their denomination.