Unanswered Questions (Penal Substitution Theory)

[JonC]

This thread is to discuss and track questions that have been asked but not answered regarding the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement.

The first will be questions posed to @Martin Marprelate on another thread.

 

[JonC]

1. How does Penal Substitution Theory maintain God's declaration that the wages of sin is death as an eternal truth (that the person who sins dies as a result of sin)?

The reason this is asked is that God declared two truths in Romans 6:23:

(1) For the wages of sin is death; (2) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is reinforced by God's declaration in Ezekiel 18:5 that "the person who sins will die".

Does Penal Substitution Theory really teach that every person who sins will die as a result (a rightfully earned wage) from sin?

If so, then why did Christ suffer the wages God tells us that we will suffer?

If not, then why negate that declaration of God?

 

[JonC]

2. Scripture states that God will forgive those who repent - the requirement being repentance as defined by turning from a mind set on the flesh to a mind set on the Spirit (a change of mind); by turning to God; by repenting and believing in the gospel of Christ Jesus (Chronicles 7:14;Proverbs 28:13 ;1 John 1:8-9 ; Acts 3:18-19; 2 Peter 3:9; Matthew 9:13 ;Revelation 3:19 Luke 17:3 ;Luke 15:10; Luke 15:7; Romans 2:4 ; Isaiah 55:6-7; Acts 2:38 ; Matthew 4:17 ;;Mark 1:15 ;; Ezekiel 18: 21-23 ;;Luke 24:45-67).

@Martin Marprelate rejected this idea as it is what he calls "simple forgiveness".

The point is that under the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement God can punish sins but it is impossible for God to actually forgive sins (the theory holds that God forgives the wicked by punishing sins).

Why is it impossible for God to forgive actual sins?

How does Penal Substitution theorists justify nullifying those passages which base forgiveness in repentance (not saying "I'm sorry" but a change of mind - from a mind set on the flesh to a mind set on the Spirit in Christ Jesus)?

 

[JonC]

3. @Martin Marprelate insisted that Classic Christianity does not deal appropriately with sin as it relates to God.

Classic Christianity holds that God has stored up His wrath until "that day" (Judgment) and at Judgment God's wrath will be poured out in the wicked, that they will be "cast into the outer darkness" the Lake of Fire.

How is this (experiencing God's wrath) not an adequate judgment against sin?

 

[JonC]

4. The Classic view holds that God has stored up His wrath for a particular time in history referred to in Scripture as "that day" and "the Day of Judgment".

What verse disproves the idea that God's wrath is "stored up for that day" and instead was partially expended to punish the sins of the elect lain on Christ?

 

[canadyjd]

1. How does Penal Substitution Theory maintain God's declaration that the wages of sin is death as an eternal truth (that the person who sins dies as a result of sin)?

The reason this is asked is that God declared two truths in Romans 6:23:

(1) For the wages of sin is death; (2) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is reinforced by God's declaration in Ezekiel 18:5 that "the person who sins will die".

Does Penal Substitution Theory really teach that every person who sins will die as a result (a rightfully earned wage) from sin?

If so, then why did Christ suffer the wages God tells us that we will suffer?

If not, then why negate that declaration of God?

I will attempt to answer the first but may address the others as well.

Penal Substitution, by definition, refers to something that takes place in a court. The person is declared innocent (righteous).

1. This “court” is the great throne judgment in heaven. Everyone dies prior to getting their court appearance. Even those alive when Christ returns will lose their mortal body, being transformed. So death is an eternal truth.

2. In Romans 6, Paul personified both sin and death as masters that rule over the person in this life. Sin rules over them. When the sin master is through, he turns them over to death.

You seem to be equating “death” with “punishment”. Death is the consequence (wages) of sin. Punishment comes after the great throne judgment. There is no declaration of God “negated” with PSA.

3. Christ didn’t just suffer “death”, (unjustly) but suffered our punishment by becoming sin for us. He was resurrected as the Firstborn of the resurrection with a transformed body.

So, when we stand before God in the great throne judgment, God will view our sins through the “lens” of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. His righteousness will clothed us like a robe.

As far as “wrath stored up for the wicked on the day of judgment”, the elect are no longer counted among the wicked since they are clothed in the righteousness of Jesus.

Therefore, their sins are forgiven as far as punishment goes. However, they still experience the consequence of sin, which is death.

Peace to you

 

[JonC]

I will attempt to answer the first but may address the others as well.

Penal Substitution, by definition, refers to something that takes place in a court. The person is declared innocent (righteous).

1. This “court” is the great throne judgment in heaven. Everyone dies prior to getting their court appearance. Even those alive when Christ returns will lose their mortal body, being transformed. So death is an eternal truth.

2. In Romans 6, Paul personified both sin and death as masters that rule over the person in this life. Sin rules over them. When the sin master is through, he turns them over to death.

You seem to be equating “death” with “punishment”. Death is the consequence (wages) of sin. Punishment comes after the great throne judgment. There is no declaration of God “negated” with PSA.

3. Christ didn’t just suffer “death”, (unjustly) but suffered our punishment by becoming sin for us. He was resurrected as the Firstborn of the resurrection with a transformed body.

So, when we stand before God in the great throne judgment, God will view our sins through the “lens” of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. His righteousness will clothed us like a robe.

As far as “wrath stored up for the wicked on the day of judgment”, the elect are no longer counted among the wicked since they are clothed in the righteousness of Jesus.

Therefore, their sins are forgiven as far as punishment goes. However, they still experience the consequence of sin, which is death.

Peace to you

I agree that those in Christ escape the wrath to come. We are no longer wicked but are remade into new creations in Christ (in whom there is no condemnation). That is part of a point I made before - God is just and the justifier of sinners (we die to sin, are no longer wicked but are new creations). God needn't punish our sins to forgive us AND recreate us because in recreating us He removed our old heart and gives us a new one.

But there is still an issue.

The wages of sin is death. Like you point out, we suffer the wages of sin (death) because sin produces death. Christ suffered the wages of sin, but not instead of us.

How is this important in your opinion?

 

[canadyjd]

I agree that those in Christ escape the wrath to come. We are no longer wicked but are remade into new creations in Christ (in whom there is no condemnation). That is part of a point I made before - God is just and the justifier of sinners (we die to sin, are no longer wicked but are new creations). God needn't punish our sins to forgive us AND recreate us because in recreating us He removed our old heart and gives us a new one.

But there is still an issue.

The wages of sin is death. Like you point out, we suffer the wages of sin (death) because sin produces death. Christ suffered the wages of sin, but not instead of us.

How is this important in your opinion?

Again, PSA is something that occurs in court. That court is the great throne judgment.

I simply disagree God doesn’t “need” to punish our sins and give us new bodies. It is a package deal.

Just as the consequence of sin (wages) is death, and then eternal punishment, the consequences of being in a right relationship with God through our Lord Jesus is forgiveness of sins, a new resurrected body and eternal joy in the presence of God.

And, as I stated before, Jesus did not just suffer death, He suffered our punishment by becoming sin for us. Although we still die because the consequences (wages) of sin is death, our sins are forgiven because Jesus took our sins to the cross with Him AND we are clothed in His righteousness when we stand before God at the great throne judgment.

I do not see an issue.

peace to you

 

[DaveXR650]

1. How does Penal Substitution Theory maintain God's declaration that the wages of sin is death as an eternal truth (that the person who sins dies as a result of sin)?

There is physical death which we all die. It's generally considered that part is universal and due to Adam being our "head" in some way. That's why physical death hits innocents like babies who have not sinned on their own yet. Then there is spiritual death or eternal separation from God which is also part of "death" in Romans 6:23.

Does Penal Substitution Theory really teach that every person who sins will die as a result (a rightfully earned wage) from sin?

So yes.

If so, then why did Christ suffer the wages God tells us that we will suffer?

You answered your own question. Because Christ suffered in our stead so we don't have to. No one is following you on this.

I agree that those in Christ escape the wrath to come. We are no longer wicked but are remade into new creations in Christ (in whom there is no condemnation)

The point is your system would work without Christ dying. But he did. You consistently dance around the central issue here - that the suffering and death of Christ did something essential that makes it possible for you to correctly state that we can be remade into new creations in Christ. The "Classical theory" does not explain what that is. And it can't, because Christ was somehow actually dealing with our sin and you have to deal with that. And there are too many verses indicating him taking on our sin to ignore that.

Like you point out, we suffer the wages of sin (death) because sin produces death. Christ suffered the wages of sin, but not instead of us.

Your mistake here is trying to deny that there is a component of wrath or punishment in death. You have sin producing death above as if it were a chemical reaction in nature. Not a result of God's reaction to rebellion and unholiness. That is a fundamental mistake that you and Arthur make in all this. If like you say, Christ suffered the wages of sin, how could it not be instead of someone? Christ didn't sin. Once again, you always have to get back at some point to penal substitutionary atonement. You come right up to the edge like you did above and then back up. You try to make a subtle distinction and say that Christ suffered the wages of sin without it being instead of us. Why then in Romans 6:23 would the contrasting points be together and in the same sentence? "The gift of God" isn't just dished out, according to scripture. It is because of the work of Christ in the atoning sacrifice he provided.

 

[DaveXR650]

If so, then why did Christ suffer the wages God tells us that we will suffer?

If not, then why negate that declaration of God?

Have you been reading Owen? That was his argument. If He did then we won't. But outside of that, you are mixing up God stating a principle with an absolute declaration. There is nothing in Romans 6:23 that makes death (and I'm including spiritual death) as an absolute declaration - but it is an explanation of God's intention if there is no remedy. The reason there are two statements in Romans 6:23 is that there is a possibility that death will not occur because of sin, if the sin is forgiven.

Now you keep insisting that this can be done upon repentance, gratuitously by God. I suppose it technically could be but we depend on revealed scripture to understand God and justice is a high priority in His nature. So we have Christ providing an atonement, paying a ransom, propitiating God's wrath and so on. And once again, your statement above gets back to Owen's argument. The people who repent and are forgiven - guess who they are? The one's whose sins were paid for by Christ's atonement.

Book 3 Chapter 9 of "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ" goes into a lot of detail on the satisfaction of Christ on our behalf. There is just verse after verse supporting the concept of penal substitution. The fact is that while you Jon, believe that those of us who believe in penal substitutionary atonement don't have the central theme of the gospel right those of us who do believe it think like Packer - it is the heart of the gospel. We can't both be right.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

2. Scripture states that God will forgive those who repent - the requirement being repentance as defined by turning from a mind set on the flesh to a mind set on the Spirit (a change of mind); by turning to God; by repenting and believing in the gospel of Christ Jesus (Chronicles 7:14;Proverbs 28:13 ;1 John 1:8-9 ; Acts 3:18-19; 2 Peter 3:9; Matthew 9:13 ;Revelation 3:19 Luke 17:3 ;Luke 15:10; Luke 15:7; Romans 2:4 ; Isaiah 55:6-7; Acts 2:38 ; Matthew 4:17 ;;Mark 1:15 ;; Ezekiel 18: 21-23 ;;Luke 24:45-67).

@Martin Marprelate rejected this idea as it is what he calls "simple forgiveness".

The point is that under the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement God can punish sins but it is impossible for God to actually forgive sins (the theory holds that God forgives the wicked by punishing sins).

Why is it impossible for God to forgive actual sins?

How does Penal Substitution theorists justify nullifying those passages which base forgiveness in repentance (not saying "I'm sorry" but a change of mind - from a mind set on the flesh to a mind set on the Spirit in Christ Jesus)?

Penal Substitution is rooted in the character of God as He revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 34:6-7. “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding with goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty.” Immediately the question arises, how can God be merciful and gracious, how can He forgive iniquity, transgression and sin without clearing the guilty? How can He clear the guilty if He abounds with truth—if He is a ‘just Judge’ (Psalm 7:11)? How can it be said that, ‘Mercy and truth have met together; righteousness and peace have kissed’ unless God can simultaneously punish sin and forgive sinners? The answer is that ‘God……devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him’ (2 Samuel 14:14). Those means are Penal Substitution. “Learn ye, my friends, to look upon God as being as severe in His justice as if He were not loving, and yet as loving as if He were not severe. His love does not diminish His justice nor does His justice, in the least degree, make warfare upon His love. The two are sweetly linked together in the atonement of Christ” (C.H. Spurgeon).

I have posted this at least three times on this board and you have studiously avoided making any response to it.
So before I answer any of your questions, kindly deal with it.

 

[37818]

Romans 6:23, ". . . For the wages of sin is death; . . ."

The three different deaths to death.

 

[JonC]

Again, PSA is something that occurs in court. That court is the great throne judgment.

I simply disagree God doesn’t “need” to punish our sins and give us new bodies. It is a package deal.

Just as the consequence of sin (wages) is death, and then eternal punishment, the consequences of being in a right relationship with God through our Lord Jesus is forgiveness of sins, a new resurrected body and eternal joy in the presence of God.

And, as I stated before, Jesus did not just suffer death, He suffered our punishment by becoming sin for us. Although we still die because the consequences (wages) of sin is death, our sins are forgiven because Jesus took our sins to the cross with Him AND we are clothed in His righteousness when we stand before God at the great throne judgment.

I do not see an issue.

peace to you

I agree that God punished the wicked at the Judgment. I wouldn't call that a "need" on the part of God, but I agree with you that at the Judgment the wicked will be punished.

One issue is that this is not unique to the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement. Most (all that I know of) theories of Atonement hold that in that "court" (Judgment) the wicked will be punished.

The difference is that Penal Substitution holds that those in Christ also stand condemned EXCEPT that Christ was already punished in their place.

That is unbiblical because it ignores recreation (that "in that court" the Christian has already died to sin, was made a "new creation's, his old heart removed).

It ignores or minimalizes regeneration in terms of salvation. Men are recreated without condemnation (that are made new creatures in Christ, in whom there is no condemnation).

We don't stand before God as wicked men whose sins have already been punished. We stand before God as new creations in Christ.

 

[JonC]

Romans 6:23, ". . . For the wages of sin is death; . . ."

The three different deaths to death.

For it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment. The Lake of Fire is the "Second death".

 

[JonC]

There is physical death which we all die. It's generally considered that part is universal and due to Adam being our "head" in some way. That's why physical death hits innocents like babies who have not sinned on their own yet. Then there is spiritual death or eternal separation from God which is also part of "death" in Romans 6:23.

So yes.

You answered your own question. Because Christ suffered in our stead so we don't have to. No one is following you on this.

The point is your system would work without Christ dying. But he did. You consistently dance around the central issue here - that the suffering and death of Christ did something essential that makes it possible for you to correctly state that we can be remade into new creations in Christ. The "Classical theory" does not explain what that is. And it can't, because Christ was somehow actually dealing with our sin and you have to deal with that. And there are too many verses indicating him taking on our sin to ignore that.

Your mistake here is trying to deny that there is a component of wrath or punishment in death. You have sin producing death above as if it were a chemical reaction in nature. Not a result of God's reaction to rebellion and unholiness. That is a fundamental mistake that you and Arthur make in all this. If like you say, Christ suffered the wages of sin, how could it not be instead of someone? Christ didn't sin. Once again, you always have to get back at some point to penal substitutionary atonement. You come right up to the edge like you did above and then back up. You try to make a subtle distinction and say that Christ suffered the wages of sin without it being instead of us. Why then in Romans 6:23 would the contrasting points be together and in the same sentence? "The gift of God" isn't just dished out, according to scripture. It is because of the work of Christ in the atoning sacrifice he provided.

You have misunderstood my question AND my position.

My question was that we all die a physical death then how is Christ dying a physical death in our stead?


My statement was that it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment. Christ had to die a physical death in order to have solidarity with man. He had to suffer what sin produces (physical death). And He had to be Sinless (judged righteous, vindicated, raised on the third day).

You disagree with that (which is fine), but how do you read that to mean Christ did not have to die?

 

[JonC]

Have you been reading Owen? That was his argument. If He did then we won't. But outside of that, you are mixing up God stating a principle with an absolute declaration. There is nothing in Romans 6:23 that makes death (and I'm including spiritual death) as an absolute declaration - but it is an explanation of God's intention if there is no remedy. The reason there are two statements in Romans 6:23 is that there is a possibility that death will not occur because of sin, if the sin is forgiven.

Now you keep insisting that this can be done upon repentance, gratuitously by God. I suppose it technically could be but we depend on revealed scripture to understand God and justice is a high priority in His nature. So we have Christ providing an atonement, paying a ransom, propitiating God's wrath and so on. And once again, your statement above gets back to Owen's argument. The people who repent and are forgiven - guess who they are? The one's whose sins were paid for by Christ's atonement.

Book 3 Chapter 9 of "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ" goes into a lot of detail on the satisfaction of Christ on our behalf. There is just verse after verse supporting the concept of penal substitution. The fact is that while you Jon, believe that those of us who believe in penal substitutionary atonement don't have the central theme of the gospel right those of us who do believe it think like Packer - it is the heart of the gospel. We can't both be right.

I haven't recently, but I have everything he has written. Do he's probably somewhere in my thoughts. I didn't intentionally use his words, if that is what you are asking.

I do believe forgiveness is granted upon repentance. And I do believe repentance is accomplished only through Christ. But not because Christ "paid for our sins". Christ didn't pay for our sins, He died for our sins (our sins were the cause of His death). He paid for US. He ransomed US.

Yes, I agree both cannot be true. Neither could be true But at least one has to be a vain philosophy. Men holding either can be Christian, just at least one holds a vain philosophy and has the danger of being "carried away" and being a "stumbling block" to others.

My suggestion is that we stick with God's Word rather than relying on our own understanding.

What does the Bible say?

The wages of sin is death (not "the punishment of God for sin is death").

Christ died for our sins, Christ purchased us (not Christ paid for our sins....He paid for us by dying for our sins as He is Sinless).

People need to read and study the Bible apart from traditions and be content to be judged accordingly for their faith.

I'm fine with that, and with disagreeing. I am sad because I do believe that many who hold Penal Substitution as the gospel will hear the words "I never knew you". But I also know that most Penal Substitution theorists realize it is their understanding and the gospel itself much greater any of these Atonement theories.

 

[canadyjd]

….
The difference is that Penal Substitution holds that those in Christ also stand condemned EXCEPT that Christ was already punished in their place.

That is unbiblical because it ignores recreation (that "in that court" the Christian has already died to sin, was made a "new creation's, his old heart removed).

It ignores or minimalizes regeneration in terms of salvation…..

This view ignores the need for the elect to be clothed in the righteousness of Christ at the great throne judgment.

Additional it declares, in essence if not flatly stated, that Christian’s obtain a state of sinless perfection when they are regenerated, no longer needing a Savior to intercede on their behalf at the throne of God.

This view is unbiblical.

Your questions have been answered. There are no unanswered questions.

All that is going on now is herding the cats to the pond to get a bath.

peace to you

 

[37818]

For it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment. The Lake of Fire is the "Second death".

How is the lake of fire a second death? What was the first death for which the lake of fire is the second?

 

[JonC]

Penal Substitution is rooted in the character of God as He revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 34:6-7. “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding with goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty.” Immediately the question arises, how can God be merciful and gracious, how can He forgive iniquity, transgression and sin without clearing the guilty? How can He clear the guilty if He abounds with truth—if He is a ‘just Judge’ (Psalm 7:11)? How can it be said that, ‘Mercy and truth have met together; righteousness and peace have kissed’ unless God can simultaneously punish sin and forgive sinners? The answer is that ‘God……devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him’ (2 Samuel 14:14). Those means are Penal Substitution. “Learn ye, my friends, to look upon God as being as severe in His justice as if He were not loving, and yet as loving as if He were not severe. His love does not diminish His justice nor does His justice, in the least degree, make warfare upon His love. The two are sweetly linked together in the atonement of Christ” (C.H. Spurgeon).

I have posted this at least three times on this board and you have studiously avoided making any response to it.
So before I answer any of your questions, kindly deal with it.

It is strange that you refuse to answer my questions (as I asked first) until I answer yours, but that is fine.

Yes, all theories believe that God will not clear the guilty.

If you believe Classic Christianity held that God was clearing the guilty then you have not grasped biblical Christian faith.

God does not clear the guilty.
God does not condemn the Righteous.

Those are eternal truths. God delivering the Righteous from suffering and death inflicted by the wicked is even an important theme of Psalm 22. So this is, as you point out, vital to the Cross.

Your mistake is numbering those who are saved among the wicked, among the guilty. We are not.

We must die to sin. We must be made alive in Christ. The "old man" is guilty. The "new man" is not.

We are made "new creations", where there is "no condemnation". You see, God takes our old heart out and gives us a new one. God gives us a new spirit, puts His Spirit in us.

If you are the same person you were naturally born as then you are guilty and will be cast into the Lake of Fire when God judges man.


Your mistake is that you are equating God not clearing the guilty and not punishing the Righteous with God having to punish bad actions.

Instead God re-creates man into something new.

The issue with God clearing the guilty is with Penal Substitution Theory, not Classic Christianity.

Penal Substitution Theory holds that God punished the sins of the guilty laid on the innocent to clear the guilty.

Classic Christianiy holds that the guilty must die, must be made into a new creation.

 

[JonC]

This view ignores the need for the elect to be clothed in the righteousness of Christ at the great throne judgment.

Additional it declares, in essence if not flatly stated, that Christian’s obtain a state of sinless perfection when they are regenerated, no longer needing a Savior to intercede on their behalf at the throne of God.

This view is unbiblical.

Your questions have been answered. There are no unanswered questions.

All that is going on now is herding the cats to the pond to get a bath.

peace to you

No, it doesn't. This is the "solidarity" of which the Early Church wrote. We are made new creations in Christ, clothes in His righteousness.