Unbelief....or All Sin?

[Iconoclast]

"agedman,

That "all" are not saved, is not the problem of the blood not being applied, but the fact that such who are not saved purposely turn from the truth, turn from the light, and make grand effort to shut out even the source of the light.

You ignore the Covenant death of Jesus.

What is it that marks that which is not condemned from the condemned? Is it lack of sin or the abundance of sin, or belief in contrast to unbelief? It is unbelief.

that is only half of the issue...unbelief is the default position of the unsaved. If they had no sin they would not go to hell.

Certainly, one is punished in the lake of fire and the punishment is apportioned upon the sinfulness of sin. That is a given. There is no escape, no reprieve, and no forgiveness found in that place.

The question resolves to what is the determiner of the final estate of all humankind?

I say it is God"s decree ...I say it is the Covenant of Redemption.

Belief in contrast to unbelief.

Saving faith and repentance are the gift of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

dude2

The commandments were reduced by Jesus, to only two

Jesus did not "reduce" the commandments to two. He gave a summary of the two tablets of the law.
The was no clearance sale on the commandments.

. You seem to be stretching your faith in the OT over to the New.

The bible is one complete revelation.

Granted sins listed by Paul fall somewhere into the genre of each commandment,

If you can see this why do you suggest otherwise?

there was a reason Jesus spoke of bringing only two, and it was to signify a new age; the age of Grace

.
Dead wrong DudeFrownFrownFrown

So I not only disagree with your attempt to legalize the freedom Jesus birthed us into under Grace, I resent your implying that we are still under the control of the same laws the Jews were under.

Can you show where i said we are under the same laws as the Jews?

However, as vehemently as I believe differently from you, you are still my brother, and I look forward to having a heavenly latte in eternity with you, while we both sit at His feet and discover how out of touch our doctrines were, and how He looked beyond our ego's and loved us enough to still let us pass through the narrow gate.

I do not have such a loose view of these things as to presume all is well .

6 Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, which are named chief of the nations, to whom the house of Israel came! False worship that God did not command was to be had in Samaria....they worshipped God how they wanted to and where they wanted to rather than in the way God said to.

 

[kyredneck]

There may be degrees of punishment in hell. I won't dispute that. That is not the topic. The topic is how they get there. Christ stated very plainly:

He that believeth not is damned.

True or false.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16:16

The problem here is that you all, including Lordship Salvation Puritans such as Icon, read eternal consequences into passages such as this when it's not intended. There is no mention of eternity in heaven or hell here, you people insert it. Christ is referring to 'that generation' of Jews, and the 'damnation' is the incurring of the curses outlined in Lev 26/Dt 28 upon those Jews and their progeny, which are all TEMPORAL consequences, NOT eternal.

Your little finite minds can't even begin to comprehend infinity, yet you all are trigger happy to send folks to hell as if Christ's atonement accomplished nothing.

What is it with 'you people'? Is it that you want to feel vindicated for what you've given up in order to go to heaven? Do you not understand the grace of God?

 

[kyredneck]

You all remind me of the Queen of Hearts in Alice's Wonderland. Instead of "off with their heads", it's "to hell with them". You divvy out eternal consequences as if you've authority to do so.

 

[agedman]

You ignore the Covenant death of Jesus.

I say it is God"s decree ...I say it is the Covenant of Redemption.

I do understand what you are putting forth, however, John is not the only place that a distinction is made.

Here is part of the Hebrews 9 passage dealing directly with the question:

15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. ...

​

Here, Christ is presented as the mediator (see 1 John - the mediator) and it also presents the "redemption of transgressions." It is important to note, that there was NO LIMIT of the "redemption of transgressions" but the statement is merely that the "transgressions that were (committed) under the first covenant" are no longer. They are paid in full. Not just some of the transgressions, but the transgressions. If there was a transgression, it is no longer.

I would remind the readers that the "law" (OT) is a "schoolmaster" (no longer in a position of condemnation) - Romans 2, Galatians 3. The blood of Christ was the redemption of transgressions for the whole "kosmos." One must be very careful not to assign a limit to this "redemption of transgressions," because the writer of Hebrews shows no indication that the application was only to a select few.

THEN the writer makes clear that "those who are called" (good Calvinist the writer must have been) "may receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

Hebrews is clear in this passage - "redemption of transgressions" is made for all, but only "those who are called" gain the eternal inheritance.

Through the rest of Hebrews 9 - 10, the statements of the effectiveness of the sacrifice in comparison to the OT temporary sacrifices, why it is offered only once, and the results of scorning the sacrifice.

At no place in the Hebrews 9 - 10 passage is the "redemption for transgressions" limited to the called. It just isn't there.

What is most certainly evident is the estate of those that would scorn the redemption - that "terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of a fire." Such is appointed not only to those who are believers (works tried by fire) but the adversaries who are not given to believe (according to the Hebrews 9:15).

The "covenant death of Jesus" erased the need for continual sacrifice. No one anywhere, and at any time need to consider that some animal sacrifice will be acceptable in the heavens. If that were not so, then the blood sacrifices would remain as they were in the OT for the unbelievers, and Christ's would be specific and apportioned only to believers.

The blood sacrifice of Christ was not merely potential, but complete (past, done, no longer repeated). That heavenly tabernacle, in which the blood of Christ was offered, did not signify that the offering was only to those chosen. That is clear from Hebrews. Rather, the sacrifice was made. That the sacrifice was not for just believers, but once offered that removed any authoritative sacrifice or even the need for sacrifice from the whole world.

What is also clear in the passage is that only those chosen are given to the blessed eternity, but those not chosen are considered adversaries and appointed to the flames.

I enjoy passages were the Doctrines of Grace are so clear.

 

[Iconoclast]

"agedman,

I do understand what you are putting forth, however, John is not the only place that a distinction is made.

Here is part of the Hebrews 9 passage dealing directly with the question:

15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. ...

​

Here, Christ is presented as the mediator (see 1 John - the mediator) and it also presents the "redemption of transgressions." It is important to note, that there was NO LIMIT of the "redemption of transgressions" but the statement is merely that the "transgressions that were (committed) under the first covenant" are no longer. They are paid in full. Not just some of the transgressions, but the transgressions. If there was a transgression, it is no longer.

There is a limit to the transgressions. Are you suggesting that unbelievers and non covenant persons sins were "paid" retroactively?

How was Jesus the mediator for those in unbelief, or those who never heard?
I do not get how you come to this.
I know this section speaks of Jesus work as Eternal High Priest.
To follow your reasoning would be universalism.

The writer has already linked the eternal High Priest as the SURETY;
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Here is Berkof on this;

C. THE SON IN THE COVENANT OF REDEMPTION.
1. THE OFFICIAL POSITION OF CHRIST IN THIS COVENANT. The position of Christ in the covenant of redemption is twofold. In the first place He is Surety (Gr. egguos), a word that is used only in Heb. 7:22. The derivation of this word is uncertain, and therefore cannot aid us in establishing its meaning. But the meaning is not doubtful. A surety is one who engages to become responsible for it that the legal obligations of another will be met. In the covenant of redemption Christ undertook to atone for the sins of His people by bearing the necessary punishment, and to meet the demands of the law for them. And by taking the place of delinquent man He became the last Adam, and is as such also the Head of the covenant, the Representative of all those whom the Father has given Him. In the covenant of redemption, then, Christ is both Surety and Head. He took upon Himself the responsibilities of His people. He is also their Surety in the covenant of grace, which develops out of the covenant of redemption.

Here in Heb 9 you are describing aspects of the perfect work fully accomplished.
To see the particular nature of it we need to look at the end of the chapter.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
unbelievers do not have an advocate....there are 3 separate words used for appear in these verses;
in vs 24 ...as an advocate or lawyer
in vs26...as the sun that is below the horizon...it was always there but then appeared
in vs 28... face to face appearance
this is not all men

I would remind the readers that the "law" (OT) is a "schoolmaster" (no longer in a position of condemnation)

gal 3 speaks of the ceremonial law for Israel....however all men will be judged by the 10 commandments



-

Romans 2, Galatians 3. The blood of Christ was the redemption of transgressions for the whole "kosmos."

only for the children given to him

One must be very careful not to assign a limit to this "redemption of transgressions," because the writer of Hebrews shows no indication that the application was only to a select few.

Not so,,,chapter 2 makes the case very clearly along with chapter 10

THEN the writer makes clear that "those who are called" (good Calvinist the writer must have been) "may receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

Hebrews is clear in this passage - "redemption of transgressions" is made for all, but only "those who are called" gain the eternal inheritance.

it is clear...

Through the rest of Hebrews 9 - 10, the statements of the effectiveness of the sacrifice in comparison to the OT temporary sacrifices, why it is offered only once, and the results of scorning the sacrifice.

it is a fearful thing

At no place in the Hebrews 9 - 10 passage is the "redemption for transgressions" limited to the called. It just isn't there.

I believe it is from 23-28


.

The blood sacrifice of Christ was not merely potential, but complete (past, done, no longer repeated). That heavenly tabernacle, in which the blood of Christ was offered, did not signify that the offering was only to those chosen.

this is not so...the High Priest interceded for a select group represented by the breastplate.

That is clear from Hebrews. Rather, the sacrifice was made. That the sacrifice was not for just believers, but once offered that removed any authoritative sacrifice or even the need for sacrifice from the whole world.

this is completely wrong
Hebrews 9 explains he ACCOMPLISHED REDEMPTION for actual people...many.Thumbsup

 

[Iconoclast]

kyredneck,

Hello Kyred....let me try and raise your blood pressure a little bit.

The problem here is that you all, including Lordship Salvation Puritans such as Icon, read eternal consequences into passages such as this when it's not intended. There is no mention of eternity in heaven or hell here, you people insert it. Christ is referring to 'that generation' of Jews, and the 'damnation' is the incurring of the curses outlined in Lev 26/Dt 28 upon those Jews and their progeny, which are all TEMPORAL consequences, NOT eternal.

While I can agree that the covenant curses of the song of Moses is coming upon that generation there is nothing here saying that the consequences are not eternal.

KYRED.....when the flood came upon the world of the ungodly it was temporal, but yet eternal at the same time.
If a person today is run over by an 18 wheeler and crushed to death...it is both temporal and eternal as they leave their body. heb 9:27

So even if your contention were to be found accurate... where are you going with it?

Jesus said in the parable the man looking to build bigger barns...thou fool...this night thy soul shall be required of thee.
Luke 12:20
But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:

17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?

18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.

19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

we are a breath away from eternity as far as we know

Your little finite minds can't even begin to comprehend infinity, yet you all are trigger happy to send folks to hell as if Christ's atonement accomplished nothing.

the watchman is to sound the warning.....all sin is to be punished...
Christs death accomplishes all it was intended to. the warnings about hell also accomplish all they are intended to.

What is it with 'you people'? Is it that you want to feel vindicated for what you've given up in order to go to heaven? Do you not understand the grace of God?

We just want to be faithful to scripture.That is simple enough.

 

[DHK]

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16:16

The problem here is that you all, including Lordship Salvation Puritans such as Icon, read eternal consequences into passages such as this when it's not intended. There is no mention of eternity in heaven or hell here, you people insert it. Christ is referring to 'that generation' of Jews, and the 'damnation' is the incurring of the curses outlined in Lev 26/Dt 28 upon those Jews and their progeny, which are all TEMPORAL consequences, NOT eternal.

Your little finite minds can't even begin to comprehend infinity, yet you all are trigger happy to send folks to hell as if Christ's atonement accomplished nothing.

What is it with 'you people'? Is it that you want to feel vindicated for what you've given up in order to go to heaven? Do you not understand the grace of God?

Mark 16:16 is not the only verse that speaks of eternity. The disciples were not mere Jews. They were disciples of Christ, more accurately known as apostles or Christians. Judaism, as a religion, they had forsaken.

Here is a timeless truth for all eternity applicable to all, not just Nicodemus:
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
--The "he" is whosoever," as in anyone in the world.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

What does everlasting mean? Was the grace of God extended to Judas Iscariot and those who crucified our Lord? Were their sins not only atoned for but was the atonement made available to those wretches who actively refused it?

 

[agedman]

Hebrews 9 explains he ACCOMPLISHED REDEMPTION for actual people...many.Thumbsup

With out doubt ALMOST every phrase of Hebrews 9 and 10 deal with the security of and example of the best sacrifice that could be offered, especially for those called to belief.

However, there is a turn of the phrase in Hebrews 9:15 that (imo) is often missed, misaligned, or misapplied. It is uncomfortable to those who would prevent in some measure the application of the Cross to all humankind, but that uncomfortableness should never be a consideration. The truth of the Scriptures should always be supreme, so look again, and consider. That truth does NOT lead to universalism.

Here is the verse:

15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.​

Focus upon this phrase: "...a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were (committed) under the first covenant..."

Who was "under the first covenant" in which animal sacrifices were obliged? Some may say, well it was the Jews. Then the death was not only for the remnant saved, but for all Jews. What of the gentile's who were also in the outer courts? The death of those sacrifices were also applied to them. What of Jews or gentiles that did not make the journey? The death was for them, too. So, then the death took place "for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant."

What transgressions? The breaking of the ten commandments - or other offenses written by Moses under the guidance of God. That would include (taking Roman's "all have sinned") everyone who has or will ever live. There for, the "redemption of the transgressions" applies to every single person that ever has or will live.

Now to some, they will immediately draw the conclusion that certainly everyone is then saved. NOT!!!

For the very next phrase says, "those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." So, then although all sin under the first covenant is indeed redeemed, not all are called, not all are saved.

It is that same principle found in John's writing (John 3, 1 John 2, 1 John 4). The unbelievers are without excuse.

God is just because the lost stand condemned not for sins, but for unbelief. This is found in the picture of the final judgment, too.

What of their sins - are not the lost in flaming torment because of sin? NO!

They are in the flaming torment because of unbelief ("condemned already... John 3). Look further at the statement in John 3:

17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
​

So, where is the Scriptures state that one is "condemed" because of sin (either one or many)?

Look carefully at this section of Romans 8:

1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
​

See, here it shows no limit placed upon the "offering for sin;" in deed, "He condemned sin in the flesh"
CERTAINLY, believers are the ultimate benefactor ("so that the the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh.")
WHO are the condemned? Those who "walk according to the flesh but (not) according to the Spirit." Why are they condemned? Reread the previous sentence.

Titus 3 says this:

3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
​

The above shows that the deeds (good or bad) is NOT the basis of condemnation or not. The believers are believers according to HIS mercy.

One final question: What good then is the OT law? Romans 3:24 For the believer, "The Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith." The law is our tutor, school master, that which points to Christ.

What of the unbeliever? Galatians 3 makes this point:

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.”... 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.” (note: I did not use the caps)
​

Galatians goes on to state that those who are not believers are under the law, and must live by that law "condemned" (as John says "already." The law did not condemn, the sin did not condemn, the lack of belief condemned.

1 Corinthians 15 says: " The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;"

Therefore, the unbelievers are condemned. Law empowers sin, and sin's sting is death - all humankind die believer and unbeliever: The final judgment is belief or unbelief.

Ok, I have shown you enough from more than one writer of Scriptures so you may know some of the evidence that supports my statements.

Do not forget that John uses a different form of the word translated "propitiation" than anywhere else in the NT. It is specific to the blood, and not to the act, or the place. That blood was shed for all humankind, from Adam to the very last one to have a belly button.