Unbelief....or All Sin?

[Iconoclast]

"DHK,

The words of Christ is what matters, not your opinion.

yes...like this-
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[DHK]

"DHK,

yes...like this-
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

You really need to quote the reference of the passage, not just verse numbers.
It is in Revelation 22, if you can't find it again.

It is evident that the passage is taken out of context. Remember the OP you started with, or the quote from me--my position--It is belief in Christ that is that entrance into heaven, and unbelief in Christ that keeps one out of heaven. This passage is not even speaking of heaven and hell. The White Throne Judgment already took place in Rev.20:11-15. The fates of the saved and unsaved have already been sealed. What John sees is the New Jerusalem, beyond the Millennium, the eternal state. This has nothing to do with salvation. In fact it has nothing to do with heaven at all.

It is evident that these verses are speaking of a different time period:
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
--If it were speaking of today, then salvation would be: "they that do his commandments," or of works.
And we would also have access to the tree of life in this life. But we don't. And salvation is by grace through faith, not of works, not of the keeping of his commandments.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

You really need to quote the reference of the passage, not just verse numbers.
It is in Revelation 22, if you can't find it again.

Oh...so you know where the passage is...then you should have known the truth that all sin keeps people out of heaven..

It is evident that the passage is taken out of context

.
CautiousCautiousCautiousCautiousCautious This excuse has worn thinSleepSleepSleepSleepSleep

I do not have to write a commentary on the book of Revelation to show that sins plural keep sinners[the unclean spoken of here]...out of heaven.

Remember the OP you started with

,
As I started the OP I see that you seek to change your position if you are the "unnamed poster"
here was the section from the OP....to refresh your mind and that of the reader;
DHK said

There are others well, you say. You listed some. You believe all sin keeps one out of heaven.
The Bible explicitly teaches that it is the rejection of Jesus Christ that keeps one from entering heaven, not our misdeeds.
If our misdeeds keep us out of heaven, then logically the opposite is true, our deeds allow us into heaven! and thus a religion of works

This was your statement then....not as you say now....

or the quote from me--my position--It is belief in Christ that is that entrance into heaven, and unbelief in Christ that keeps one out of heaven

You attempt to clean up your errant post here......

Belief In Christ was not the question...that was not the OP....stay on topic...Frown
Then you say.....unbelief In Christ keeps one out of heaven....that also was not in question, stay on topic.....

The topic was you were saying that SIN DOES NOT KEEP SOMEONE OUT OF Heaven.
I do say that any sin not covered by Jesus will keep them out.

I say that because multitudes have never heard about Jesus and have died in their sins.

. This passage is not even speaking of heaven and hell.

The passage is speaking about both heaven and hell.....the eternal state.

The White Throne Judgment already took place in Rev.20:11-15. The fates of the saved and unsaved have already been sealed. What John sees is the New Jerusalem, beyond the Millennium, the eternal state. This has nothing to do with salvation. In fact it has nothing to do with heaven at all.

More false teaching to add to your resume.....that is for another thread...post on topic as you like to say...

It is evident that these verses are speaking of a different time period:
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
--If it were speaking of today, then salvation would be: "they that do his commandments," or of works.
And we would also have access to the tree of life in this life. But we don't. And salvation is by grace through faith, not of works, not of the keeping of his commandments.

CautiousRolleyesEekCautious....you continue to offer error after error.....

 

[DHK]

DHK,
Oh...so you know where the passage is...then you should have known the truth that all sin keeps people out of heaven..

Be reasonable Icon. I couldn't remember where it was, though perhaps I should have. I did a search using a specific phrase and found it quickly enough. It is simply proper etiquette to put in the complete reference of the scripture you post.

What keeps people out of heaven. Jesus makes that very clear for us:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
He that beleiveth not, that is "unbelief" in Christ keeps one out of heaven.

This excuse has worn thin.

What excuse. Do you have "the excuse" or right to take any scripture out of its context to use in any way you want to? That is very arrogant.
Would you apply this verse to yourself:
Mat 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
--Perhaps claim the deity of Christ? Why not? Just absurdly take any verse out of Scripture, allegorize it, and make it say anything you want to regardless of the context. That is what you are saying to me. However, context is very important, and that "excuse" will never wear thin!!!

So I repeat again: You took the passage out of its context.
Look and learn. Revelation 22:12-15 has nothing to do with belief or unbelief in Christ in this day and age. Both resurrections will have taken place by that time. The Great White Throne Judgment will have already been over, as it is in Rev.20:11-15. This is now chapter 22 and speaks of the New Jerusalem, subsequent to the GWT, the eternal state. It is a description of the New Jerusalem contrasting it to what was in the past. What was in the past? Dogs, sorcerers, etc. Things that are absolutely unknown in the New Jerusalem. It is to give a picture of a stark contrast to the reader.

I do not have to write a commentary on the book of Revelation to show that sins plural keep sinners[the unclean spoken of here]...out of heaven.

I have already written a commentary on Revelation. Laugh
I have also both taught and preached through the book more than once. It appears you don't know what you are talking about when referencing this book. What is given in Revelation 22 is a contrast. The unbelievers were already judged and sentenced at the GWT in Rev.20:11-15. They aren't even around. In view is a new heaven and a new earth where no sin will enter in. What keeps all sin out? Unbelief in Christ does. That unbelief in Christ is why people were thrown into the Lake of Fire; why their names were not written in "The Lamb's Book of Life." They had to belong "to the Lamb."
,

As I started the OP I see that you seek to change your position if you are the "unnamed poster"
here was the section from the OP....to refresh your mind and that of the reader;
DHK said

This was your statement then....not as you say now....

You attempt to clean up your errant post here......

Pure semantics. I said that "one's misdeeds don't keep a person out of heaven, but unbelief in Christ does." You said I was wrong. Because you said I was wrong I said you were believing in a religion of works. Christ is the center of our faith. It is belief in him that gains us entrance to heaven, and unbelief that shuts us out of heaven. Deeds and misdeeds have nothing to do with it.

Belief In Christ was not the question...that was not the OP....stay on topic...

Frown
Then you say.....unbelief In Christ keeps one out of heaven....that also was not in question, stay on topic.....

Belief in Christ was always the topic in as much as that is the opposite of unbelief in Christ.
The only thing that keeps one out of heaven is unbelief in Christ, as the only thing that allows a person into heaven is belief in heaven.
Icon, when you die someday and stand before a holy God, and if he should ask you "Why should I allow you to enter into my heaven?" What would you answer?
--Would your answer be based on deeds or misdeeds?

The topic was you were saying that SIN DOES NOT KEEP SOMEONE OUT OF Heaven.

I do say that any sin not covered by Jesus will keep them out.

Sin not covered by the blood is ultimately unbelief in Christ. Semantics.
Even so, There is nothing in Revelation 22 that addresses this topic.

I say that because multitudes have never heard about Jesus and have died in their sins.

That topic is not addressed in Revelation 22.

The passage is speaking about both heaven and hell.....the eternal state.

What is described in Rev.22 is the New Jerusalem. There is no hell there.

More false teaching to add to your resume.....that is for another thread...post on topic as you like to say...

Here is what I said:

The White Throne Judgment already took place in Rev.20:11-15. The fates of the saved and unsaved have already been sealed. What John sees is the New Jerusalem, beyond the Millennium, the eternal state. This has nothing to do with salvation. In fact it has nothing to do with heaven at all.

You simply declare this false teaching. But you can't tell why? There is no false teaching here. If there was you would have pointed it out. But you can't.

...you continue to offer error after error.....

None at all. But I understand how an Amill would be confused about the Book of Revelation.

 

[Iconoclast]

"DHK,

Be reasonable Icon. I couldn't remember where it was, though perhaps I should have. I did a search using a specific phrase and found it quickly enough. It is simply proper etiquette to put in the complete reference of the scripture you post.

Fair enough. I usually give the scripture address more so when on my laptop.When on my phone sometimes I do not.
I should do it for those who might be new believers.

What keeps people out of heaven. Jesus makes that very clear for us:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
He that beleiveth not, that is "unbelief" in Christ keeps one out of heaven.

Nobody disagrees that unbelief keeps people out of heaven.
The point of discussion is......can SIN that is not covered by the blood keep persons out of heaven.......you say no.....I say yes ,for sure.

What excuse. Do you have "the excuse" or right to take any scripture out of its context to use in any way you want to? That is very arrogant.

The scriptures were not out of context for anyone not wearing a dispensational straight jacket.

Just absurdly take any verse out of Scripture, allegorize it, and make it say anything you want to regardless of the context. That is what you are saying to me. However, context is very important, and that "excuse" will never wear thin!!!

No one has allegorized anything....lets look;

So I repeat again: You took the passage out of its context.
Look and learn. Revelation 22:12-15 has nothing to do with belief or unbelief in Christ in this day and age

this thread is not all about the whole book of revelation or is it totally chronological.

The use of rev 22 in this discussion is valid because as it is the last book and John is summing up much teaching with these words it becomes clear it is about the condition of the saved and lost.
in vs 14 the saved...
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

these saved persons are described as "doing his commandments"....works accompany their profession as God has worked in them.

contrasted are the unsaved;

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
These descriptions of their "works".....are sinful works.
It does not comment on if they ever heard the gospel at all! It is speaking of general day to day sinners who cannot enter in....

. Both resurrections will have taken place by that time. The Great White Throne Judgment will have already been over, as it is in Rev.20:11-15. This is now chapter 22 and speaks of the New Jerusalem, subsequent to the GWT, the eternal state. It is a description of the New Jerusalem contrasting it to what was in the past. What was in the past? Dogs, sorcerers, etc. Things that are absolutely unknown in the New Jerusalem. It is to give a picture of a stark contrast to the reader.

revelation is not chronological....it jumps back and forth.

I have already written a commentary on Revelation. Laugh

So you claim.

I have also both taught and preached through the book more than once.

If you are preaching this kind of error it will not help those who sat through it.

It appears you don't know what you are talking about when referencing this book.

Thank you....if you agreed with me I would have to examine myself...

What is given in Revelation 22 is a contrast. The unbelievers were already judged and sentenced at the GWT in Rev.20:11-15. They aren't even around.

Not around????CautiousCautiousCautious....so the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie....

are believers???? let me guess....carnal Christian murderers and fornicators
EekWinkWink...must be some commentary!Laugh

In view is a new heaven and a new earth where no sin will enter in. What keeps all sin out? Unbelief in Christ does. That unbelief in Christ is why people were thrown into the Lake of Fire; why their names were not written in "The Lamb's Book of Life." They had to belong "to the Lamb."

you keep avoiding the real issue

the person who never hears about Jesus.....does he sin?
Is he allowed into heaven with his sin?
Or is he punished as an unrepentant sinner?

Pure semantics. I said that "one's misdeeds don't keep a person out of heaven,

Does sin have to be punished and cleansed?

You said I was wrong. Because you said I was wrong I said you were believing in a religion of works.

And you are wrong once again....that is your regular condition from day to day.

Christ is the center of our faith. It is belief in him that gains us entrance to heaven, and unbelief that shuts us out of heaven. Deeds and misdeeds have nothing to do with it.

so you hold to your errorThumbsdownThumbsdownThumbsdown

Belief in Christ was always the topic in as much as that is the opposite of unbelief in Christ.

As I made the OP...it was not the topic.....you are trying to disguise your error

.
Icon, when you die someday and stand before a holy God, and if he should ask you "Why should I allow you to enter into my heaven?" What would you answer?
--Would your answer be based on deeds or misdeeds?

The Holy Covenant keeping God will never ask that question...as He knows who He has purposed to save in the Covenant of redemption...He will say well done, good and faithful servant.

Sin not covered by the blood is ultimately unbelief in Christ. Semantics.

Your shallow views of the sinfulness of sin are horrible as Jesus had to die for the sins of His people.

Even so, There is nothing in Revelation 22 that addresses this topic.

That topic is not addressed in Revelation 22.

What is described in Rev.22 is the New Jerusalem. There is no hell there

only to those who have eyes to see.
.

Here is what I said:

The White Throne Judgment already took place in Rev.20:11-15. The fates of the saved and unsaved have already been sealed. What John sees is the New Jerusalem, beyond the Millennium, the eternal state. This has nothing to do with salvation. In fact it has nothing to do with heaven at all.

You simply declare this false teaching. But you can't tell why? There is no false teaching here. If there was you would have pointed it out. But you can't.

it was bad enough the first time I read it.

None at all. But I understand how an Amill would be confused about the Book of Revelation

you might need to ask an amill person that question.

 

[DHK]

"DHK,
Fair enough. I usually give the scripture address more so when on my laptop.When on my phone sometimes I do not.
I should do it for those who might be new believers.

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

"Give an answer to every man that asketh you (with the reference).

Nobody disagrees that unbelief keeps people out of heaven.
The point of discussion is......can SIN that is not covered by the blood keep persons out of heaven.......you say no.....I say yes ,for sure.

I don't give opinion; you do. What did Jesus say:

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--Before He even shed his blood he stated that he was the only way. Belief in him was the only way to heaven. Contrariwise unbelief in him is the way to be shut out of heaven. It is black and white. It is in scripture all throughout the Bible. For example:
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
--Either you have life or you don't; either you believe or you don't.

The scriptures were not out of context for anyone not wearing a dispensational straight jacket.

Is that really true?
How does this verse and its context apply to the topic:

1Ch 26:18 At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar.
--You say it "is never out of context."??? How does it relate to the OP?
BTW, who said anything about dispensations? I didn't. You are on your hobby-horse again.

No one has allegorized anything....lets look;

Perhaps not right here. Often it does. What you are replying to is this statement:

So I repeat again: You took the passage out of its context.
Look and learn. Revelation 22:12-15 has nothing to do with belief or unbelief in Christ in this day and age.
--Again I repeat, Rev.22:12-15 has nothing to do with the OP. You have taken the passage out of its context. Sometimes a passage is allegorized; sometimes out of context. As you proclaimed before: It is scripture; "Scriptures are never out of context." Nonsense.
This is Scripture too:
Son 2:6 His left hand is under my head, and his right hand doth embrace me.
--It simply doesn't have anything to do with the OP, just like Rev.22 doesn't.

this thread is not all about the whole book of revelation or is it totally chronological.

The book of Revelation is mostly chronological. If that is your excuse it is sad.
Christ commanded John to write in chronological order.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
--There is order and structure in the book, AND chronology.

The use of rev 22 in this discussion is valid because as it is the last book and John is summing up much teaching with these words it becomes clear it is about the condition of the saved and lost.
in vs 14 the saved...
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

these saved persons are described as "doing his commandments"....works accompany their profession as God has worked in them.

contrasted are the unsaved;

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
These descriptions of their "works".....are sinful works.
It does not comment on if they ever heard the gospel at all! It is speaking of general day to day sinners who cannot enter in....

So now you revert back to a works salvation.
Salvation is by grace through faith and that not of oneself; not of works.
Works comes after salvation. And works have nothing to do with salvation. Neither does this chapter--Rev.22.
What does John say:
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
--There were no chapter divisions in the original. This is a continuation of chapter 21.
It is a description that starts immediately after the Great White Throne Judgement of 20:11-15.
This is what it says:
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
--A New Heaven and A New Earth, that is what is in view here. There are no dogs, sorcerers, unbelievers, etc. All of unbelievers are in the Lake of fire. That is exactly what it says in verse 8:

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
--No one like this is around. There are no unbelievers. It is all a contrast to the new earth and the new heaven. All who have rejected Christ are in the Lake of Fire. They are described in verse 8, just quoted.

revelation is not chronological....it jumps back and forth.

So you claim.

So you claim. John was told to write in a chronological way. But you don't think he obeyed the Lord??

Not around????CautiousCautiousCautious....so the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie....

are believers???? let me guess....carnal Christian murderers and fornicators
EekWinkWink...must be some commentary!Laugh

Go back and read 21:8. Now tell me where they are. You might want to read 20:11-15. Tell me again where they are. And what does 21:1,2 say? "a new heaven and a new earth." There are no unbelievers there.

you keep avoiding the real issue

the person who never hears about Jesus.....does he sin?
Is he allowed into heaven with his sin?
Or is he punished as an unrepentant sinner?

Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? (Gen.18:25). Unbelievers do not enter heaven. That is what the scriptures teach. "The secret things belong unto the Lord."

Does sin have to be punished and cleansed?

"We shall ALL give account for our sin." The Bible makes this statement more than once.
Believers will be judged for the works (whether good or "bad" at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Unbelievers will be judged according to their works at the GWT.
Both are either received into heaven or rejected on the basis of their faith in Christ.

And you are wrong once again....that is your regular condition from day to day.

I stated what I observed. You can always clarify your position if you think I am wrong.

so you hold to your error

No. I am not the one in error. I said:
Christ is the center of our faith. It is belief in him that gains us entrance to heaven, and unbelief that shuts us out of heaven. Deeds and misdeeds have nothing to do with it.
--This is what the Bible teaches. Check John 14:6; 3:16-18; Eph.2:8,9, etc. Salvation is not by works as you seem to imply.

As I made the OP...it was not the topic.....you are trying to disguise your error

What error? I am not the one making the inference that salvation is by works.
What in this statement do you find in error?

Belief in Christ was always the topic in as much as that is the opposite of unbelief in Christ.

The Holy Covenant keeping God will never ask that question...as He knows who He has purposed to save in the Covenant of redemption...He will say well done, good and faithful servant.

Is that all you have to rely on for an assurance of salvation? How do you know what God should say to you or not? And on what covenant are you basing your salvation? Suppose you have the wrong one.

Your shallow views of the sinfulness of sin are horrible as Jesus had to die for the sins of His people.

That is a terrible thing to say--one of many ad hominems.
You don't know what my views are since we have never really discussed that topic. Yet you take this opportunity to hurl insults anyway.

only to those who have eyes to see.

If Rev.22 discussed the subject of hell you would demonstrate it. Instead you relish in insults.
As I have quoted to you it describes the new heaven and new earth, and also:

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

This is not heaven; it is not hell. It is not speaking of salvation or belief in Christ or unbelief in Christ.

you might need to ask an amill person that question.

I asked you. But you are clueless about this book, the Book of Revelation.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,
Your post 67 was basically no response at all as you ramble all over the place to avoid both the OP and specific answers to that question.

1]So....I will repeat the OP

2]I will repeat the questions that need to be answered.

3]Then I will deal with your rambling off topic cover up just to expose how you are less then honest in your responses once again..

4]I will deal with your off topic posting 1 item at a time so you cannot evade as you do.




You keep avoiding the real issue

Here is the OP; this thread is titled....Unbelief...or sin?

Unbelief is sin and anyone denying Jesus will perish for sure......that is not the question.
The question is.....does God punish each and every sin according to His Holy law?

This poster reacted this way, unfortunately;

You have done it again. This is a clear unbiblical error that you are teaching, and Jesus never taught it!
Click to expand...
It is serious error
Click to expand...
Icon does deny this. You deny a very basic Biblical truth:
That is "Salvation is through faith in Christ, and in Christ alone." (John 14:6)
Your disagreement with the statement
"Neither are we kept out because of our misdeeds"

--
Does God intend to punish all sin?

Or does God only punish unbelief?

Do people who do not hear about Jesus have their sin punished at all?

The person who never hears about Jesus.....does he sin?

Is he allowed into heaven with his sin?

Or is he punished as an unrepentant sinner?

The questions bolded in RED are the topic at hand...not your views on revelation, your alleged book, or anything else you dragged into the conversation..

In post 67 you offer these non responsive responses;

Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? (Gen.18:25).

Great verse but it does not answer any of the questions specifically.
Everyone agrees with Gen 18:25.....we know that, we believe that.

here are the questions once again;
Does God intend to punish all sin?

Or does God only punish unbelief?

Do people who do not hear about Jesus have their sin punished at all?

The person who never hears about Jesus.....does he sin?

Is he allowed into heaven with his sin?

Or is he punished as an unrepentant sinner?

Unbelievers do not enter heaven

This is true...but clearly not the OP question...in fact in post #1 I said this;
Unbelief is sin and anyone denying Jesus will perish for sure......that is not the question.
The question is.....does God punish each and every sin according to His Holy law?

I specifically deal with this in post 1....so you have no excuse to keep repeating this in this thread except to avoid the question being discussed. You mention this over and over in this thread.....to make it seem like you are responding...but in fact you do not.
.

That is what the scriptures teach.

Wonderful......now answer the questions

"The secret things belong unto the Lord."

Yes they do....but this does not address the questions being discussed. Answer the 6 questions

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

I don't give opinion; you do

.
Everyone gives an opinion.....I do....you do. Your false teaching is your opinion.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

.

What did Jesus say:

Jesus taught many things. Jesus taught many truths. For you to take out one or two verses and declare....here it is...this is what Jesus taught as if there was no other teaching is deranged thinking, This happens in fundamentalist circles....the same kind of person says...In MY BIBLE Jesus said......then they narrow the focus of what Jesus said to a distortion of their own minds , mis using the words of Jesus in total.
That is what you are doing. We see it right here...lets see ;

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--Before He even shed his blood he stated that he was the only way. Belief in him was the only way to heaven.

Yes ...everyone knows that Jesus taught this truth. There is no other way, no other name as in Acts 4:12.
It is not just a philosophy or mental idea being expressed. The reason He is the only way is He is unique, as Prophet, Priest, and King. He is the Mediator and Surety of all of the elect......that is why he is the only way.... Any truth Jesus taught about His person and work needs to be expanded, not limited as you try and misuse it.

Contrariwise unbelief in him is the way to be shut out of heaven. It is black and white. It is in scripture all throughout the Bible.

Here is where you limit the teaching and wresting the scriptures.
You say"Contrariwise unbelief in him is the way to be shut out of heaven."

There are many ways people go to hell. Unbelief is the condition of the natural man.
Men are born sinners and condemned. If God does not intervene....they perish.
That is why the 6 questions are put to you....
You need to answer.

 

[Revmitchell]

What do you mean?

This entire debate is silly. Pitting unbelief against all sins is just weird.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1 Cor. 6:9. 'Do you not know that the unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers.............nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.'

Gal. 5:19. 'Now the works of the flesh are evident which are adultery, fornication ......... drunkenness, revelries and the like; of which I tell you beforehand.......that those who practise such things will not enter the kingdom of God.'

Rev. 21:27. 'But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination [cf. Prov. 16:16ff etc.] or a lie.......'

See also Matt. 25:41-43; Rev. 21:8 etc. It is men's sins that will keep them out of the heaven unless they are washed away in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[DHK]

1 Cor. 6:9. 'Do you not know that the unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers.............nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.'

Gal. 5:19. 'Now the works of the flesh are evident which are adultery, fornication ......... drunkenness, revelries and the like; of which I tell you beforehand.......that those who practise such things will not enter the kingdom of God.'

Rev. 21:27. 'But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination [cf. Prov. 16:16ff etc.] or a lie.......'

See also Matt. 25:41-43; Rev. 21:8 etc. It is men's sins that will keep them out of the heaven unless they are washed away in the blood of the Lamb.

Which translated into common language means:
"unless they believe in Christ."
For only then will their sins will be washed away in the blood.
Without belief in Christ there is no hope for anyone to have "their sins forgiven or washed by the blood. First things first.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

.
Everyone gives an opinion.....I do....you do. Your false teaching is your opinion.

Yes this is an opinion, an ad hominem, a personal attack, an insult. etc.
It deserves an infraction which you probably won't get.
It is not debate and never will fall under the category of debate.
It is what people do when they have nothing left to debate.

 

[TCassidy]

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Yes, Christ died not only to save Jews but to save some from every tongue, tribe, and nation. What does that have to do with the op?

Should not be contradicted.
Christ paid for all the sins for all the world.

Actually that is not what it says. It says "he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

If every person, without distinction, has had his sins forgiven by Christ's death on the cross, how can anybody ever go to hell?

Sins forgiven = heaven.
Sins unforgiven = hell.

Does "all" mean "everyone without exception?" I don't think so.

Mark 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Did every single person in all of Jerusalem and Judaea come out to Him and did each and every person of Jerusalem and Judaea without exception get baptized?

Of course not! Not if you believe Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Remember the three rules for understanding the bible.

1. Context.
2. Context.
3. Context.

Oh, and did I mention context?

 

[DHK]

Yes, Christ died not only to save Jews but to save some from every tongue, tribe, and nation. What does that have to do with the op?
Actually that is not what it says. It says "he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

If every person, without distinction, has had his sins forgiven by Christ's death on the cross, how can anybody ever go to hell?

Sins forgiven = heaven.
Sins unforgiven = hell.

Does "all" mean "everyone without exception?" I don't think so.

Mark 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Did every single person in all of Jerusalem and Judaea come out to Him and did each and every person of Jerusalem and Judaea without exception get baptized?

Of course not! Not if you believe Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Remember the three rules for understanding the bible.

1. Context.
2. Context.
3. Context.

Oh, and did I mention context?

Yes, context. Did Jesus die for the the sins of the world? Yes I believe he did. Not according to Calvinism, but according to the Bible.
Context: Mark 1:5--You would have us believe he died for only first century Christians. That would leave us all out wouldn't it? But maybe that is the meaning: "the world at that time."
Context: "Only the elect." But it doesn't say that, so why infer that meaning.
Context: "But for the sins of the whole world." Not the world of that time, not the world of the elect, not the world of Calvin, but all the world in all ages.

How is that possible?
His blood is efficacious only to them that believe.
Thus it is still only those that believe that will enter heaven; those that don't believe will be damned, according to the words of Christ.

 

[TCassidy]

Yes, context. Did Jesus die for the the sins of the world? Yes I believe he did. Not according to Calvinism, but according to the Bible.
Context: Mark 1:5--You would have us believe he died for only first century Christians. That would leave us all out wouldn't it? But maybe that is the meaning: "the world at that time."
Context: "Only the elect." But it doesn't say that, so why infer that meaning.
Context: "But for the sins of the whole world." Not the world of that time, not the world of the elect, not the world of Calvin, but all the world in all ages.

How is that possible?
His blood is efficacious only to them that believe.
Thus it is still only those that believe that will enter heaven; those that don't believe will be damned, according to the words of Christ.

The formatting makes it very difficult to follow you.

So, I guess all that means you do believe every single person without exception from Jerusalem and Judaea went out to see Christ and every single one of them, without exception, was baptized?

And therefore, you also think Luke was wrong when he said some did not believe and be baptized?

 

[DHK]

The formatting makes it very difficult to follow you.

So, I guess all that means you do believe every single person without exception from Jerusalem and Judaea went out to see Christ and every single one of them, without exception, was baptized?

And therefore, you also think Luke was wrong when he said some did not believe and be baptized?

No, As Paul told the Philippian jailer:
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
--Nothing else but faith was required. Everyone in the jail could have been saved. Christ's blood was sufficient for them all, but it is only efficacious to those who believed--as the jailer did.

 

[TCassidy]

No, As Paul told the Philippian jailer:
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
--Nothing else but faith was required. Everyone in the jail could have been saved. Christ's blood was sufficient for them all, but it is only efficacious to those who believed--as the jailer did.

And what does that have to do with Mark 1:5 when compared to Luke 7:30?

 

[DHK]

And what does that have to do with Mark 1:5 when compared to Luke 7:30?

We started with 1Jn.2:2. "...but for the sins of the whole world."
Eventually you came to:

So, I guess all that means you do believe every single person without exception from Jerusalem and Judaea went out to see Christ and every single one of them, without exception, was baptized?

With a process of elimination, salvation was not confined to the world of Judea, the world of the first century. I think we can agree on that.
In the first part of the verse he says "and not for us only." What does that refer to?
Does it refer to disciples, collective believers (John and those who he is writing to)? I believe the latter, and if that is true, then it is applicable to us as well. Thus the second part of the verse would be the rest of the world. The Bible is a timeless book. The principles are for every generation.

Luk 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Luk 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
--I am not sure of your point here.

Perhaps it is better answered with Acts 2:41
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
--"Hear" could be more equated with "received."

 

[Iconoclast]

"DHK,

Yes this is an opinion, an ad hominem, a personal attack, an insult. etc.
It deserves an infraction which you probably won't get.

I believe it is descriptive of your teaching...not an attack at all.
You call what i say error all the time, and malign Cals all the time.....here from this thread alone

-Perhaps claim the deity of Christ? Why not? Just absurdly take any verse out of Scripture, allegorize it, and make it say anything you want to regardless of the context.

It appears you don't know what you are talking about when referencing this book.

Because you said I was wrong I said you were believing in a religion of works.

[None at all. But I understand how an Amill would be confused about the Book of Revelation./QUOTE]

So now you revert back to a works salvation.

Salvation is not by works as you seem to imply.

I asked you. But you are clueless about this book, the Book of Revelation.

It is not debate and never will fall under the category of debate.
It is what people do when they have nothing left to debate.[

These are from your keyboard in only two posts...so stop whining like a hypocrit and answer the 6 questions,,,or confess your error openly.


You use this as an excuse not to answer the 6 questions....