Unbelief....or All Sin?

[Iconoclast]

He that believeth is not condemned.
He that believeth not is condemned already.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
--We are kept out of heaven because of our unbelief in Christ, not because of other misdeeds.
How have I changed?

Oh so now you go back to the same error that you was saying so unsaved heathen who never hear about Jesus are not going to be kept out of heaven because of this sins?
They are not lawbreakers???

 

[Iconoclast]

This is OT. God punished them in that time. It was not in eternity.

You ignore the obvious intent of the passage the non covenant Amorite sins were numbered
counted by God it doesn't matter what Testament it was in God is in control of all people on the planet

 

[agedman]

Oh so now you go back to the same error that you was saying so unsaved heathen who never hear about Jesus are not going to be kept out of heaven because of this sins?
They are not lawbreakers???

I didn't read what you read in the post of DHK, are you responding to an earlier post that I missed?

 

[agedman]

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Notice...the SINS of many......sins plural......not just unbelief.....but sins plural...

I spent some moments looking at Strongs to get a quick reference to the word translated "the sins."

The original language doesn't seem to indicate the plural form of "the sins" rather - sin or failure. I don't know at this point why the translators would use the plural form, unless it is tied to the individual sin combined into the many people would make it sins of many.

But, "sins" does not send one to hell, although that is part of the all who are in that estate. People die in their sin - the consequences of sin. Be it a believer or unbeliever - all die because of the consequence of sin.

Believers sin, but it is forgiven because they believe and thus have "escaped" the lake of fire.

Unbelievers are already condemned because they don't believe, and therefore, the sin(s) are not forgiven. However, just because one dies in their sin, doesn't mean the sin has condemned them to hell.

There is only one dividing mark between heaven and the lake of fire - belief.

No amount of sin(s) send a person to the lake of fire. If that were not true, there would be no preservation of the saints.

A single significant change keeps a person from the lake of fire - belief.

 

[agedman]

Again you are just parroting Calvin's line.
Christ died for the sins of the world, as that passage clearly teaches.
Those who believe him are not condemned. Nothing is said about sheep.
Those who do not believe in him are condemned. Nothing is said about goats.
It is interesting to note that in all the Bible the only contrast between sheep and goats is in the judgment of the nations, a judgment of gentiles that takes place between the Tribulation and the Millennial Kingdom well after the saints have been raptured.
It also may be noted that "sheep" are referred to as the "unsaved" in Isa.53:6, a verse often used to refer to the depravity of man.
Also in that very same verse: "The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us ALL."

This is so very typical of John, and one that took me a bit of time to work through.

It is something that I consider most of determined Calvinistic thinkers would probably reject because there is a bit of reluctance of any who adopt some scheme to modify that view. So, I am at times considered a stranger in that camp - though I readily accept the doctrines of grace.

This is my opinion:
John used "world" in two ways, One was as an expression apparently typical of the exaggerations of the ancients (in our day it is referred to as "evangelistic-ally speaking." One Scripture - John 12:19 "the whole world has gone after Him," or as the NASB says, "everyone has gone after him!" It is evident this was an expression used in excited times or exasperation.

The other is when John uses the word "world" in such places as 3:16, I do not look at it as exageration or exuberant reaction, but a statement of fact.

So, my "calvinism" is somewhat modified on this point, which is why the propitiation and unbelief are so much more important.

When the lost face the final judgment and realize that the ONLY item standing between them and heaven is "unbelief" what a great judgment recompense that will be. The recognition that the propitiation was accepted by God, and yet that person did not believe, then they have to dwell forever knowing what they missed, what could have been but can never be, is far greater than one merely punished for their sins. This punishment is eternal, when everyone knows the Scriptures often present the picture of wrong done receives a temporary judgment and then restitution.

Are folks in hell because of sin(s)? No Doubt. All have sinned.

What separates the believer from the unbeliever, the final estate of heaven rather then hell? Belief.

I am in no way diminishing the sins of humankind, nor the punishment of hell, by accepting that John stated that the propitiation was not only for the believer but for the whole world in the literal meaning.

 

[DHK]

Oh so now you go back to the same error that you was saying so unsaved heathen who never hear about Jesus are not going to be kept out of heaven because of this sins?
They are not lawbreakers???

What error?
Is it error to say:

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
--Those aren't my words; they are the words of Christ. It is clear that they that believe not on Christ are damned.

And again:
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--The only way to heaven is through Christ. There is no other way. You seem to imply that there is.

What about those "that have never heard," as you say?
Is there another way? Is that your implication? There is one way to heaven. It is through Christ. If one does not go through Christ, they are damned because they do not go through Christ; they reject Him.
I didn't right the Bible. God did. Take up your "what ifs" with God.

 

[DHK]

You ignore the obvious intent of the passage the non covenant amirite sins were numbered
counted by God it doesn't matter what Testament it was in God is in control of all people on the planet

They sinned. God judged them. He judged while they lived, on this earth. Case closed.

 

[Rippon]

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
--Those aren't my words; they are the words of Christ. It is clear that they that believe not on Christ are damned.

Mark probably did not write the above. You know about the longer ending(s) of Mark. (Not just 9-20).

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--The only way to heaven is through Christ. There is no other way.

Agreed. Christ is the only way.

What about those "that have never heard," as you say?
Is there another way? Is that your implication? There is one way to heaven. It is through Christ. If one does not go through Christ, they are damned because they do not go through Christ; they reject Him.

You are not making sense. How can the ones who have never heard of Christ or the Gospel 'reject Him' as you put it?

They are eternally condemned because of their sins --not because they rejected Christ.

 

[agedman]

...
What about those "that have never heard," as you say?
Is there another way? Is that your implication? There is one way to heaven. It is through Christ. If one does not go through Christ, they are damned because they do not go through Christ; they reject Him.
I didn't right the Bible. God did. Take up your "what ifs" with God.

This question of "what about those,'that have never heard,'" has been around for two millennia (imo).

Here is a comfortable answer. God knows who are His.
Based on this premise, the need for missionaries is null, for God will not not save those who are His. Extreme Calvinistic thinkers are in this group, and very lazy Arminians, too. The Pelagians are over joyed at the lack of responsibility, and the vast number of believers just don't care unless there is some great revivalistic emotional appeals being made.

What other answers?

• God will send to any "Cornelius" or "eunuch," who is devote, someone to show them the way. Sounds good, but really doesn't do justice to the basic question of "never heard."
  
• God will let them die in their sin. But what of the promises of Christ? Did He not pray for those who would also become believers? Ah, but here is the catch - "through their word... does this make those who never hear, yet were given by God to Christ, doomed?
• The answer is really unknown.

None of these answers is satisfactory (imo).

So, in this thread on the exploration of belief or all sin, what really is belief, and what of those who have never heard of Jesus, Jesu, Yeshua...

What if a person believes that God has provided salvation. Is not the definitive meaning of the name - the Lord of Salvation? Is that person lost?

 

[Rippon]

Those poor Armenians. They have been mistaken for Arminians so much of the time.
Granted, many of them may be Arminians. But don't confuse a nation with a theological label.

 

[DHK]

Mark probably did not write the above. You know about the longer ending(s) of Mark. (Not just 9-20).

I note the word "probably." I don't base my faith on speculation. Believe what you will. My faith stands firm.

You are not making sense. How can the ones who have never heard of Christ or the Gospel 'reject Him' as you put it?

They are eternally condemned because of their sins --not because they rejected Christ.

Again, you are basing faith on the unknown and speculation. I base my faith on the Word of God, the very words of Christ and his inspired promises. I don't dare infer that he is lying and pit his promises against your speculation. Just because you don't understand some things doesn't mean God's Word isn't true.

 

[SovereignGrace]

he must be a "carnal Christian" that some speak so much about

DHK is doing a fine job. Even a sodomite agrees with his soteriology.

 

[DHK]

DHK is doing a fine job. Even a sodomite agrees with his soteriology.

You are unable to stay on topic or to post to the OP, so now you resort to personal attacks.
This is the nature of your debate tactics.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The answer to your dilemma lies here.
In 2Timothy 4, Paul explains that there was two imprisonments. Concerning his first trial he states:
"No one stood with me."
After that time he was set free for a period of time, perhaps about two years. Most scholars say that it was during this time that he reached Spain, his long desired goal. Apparently he did go there.
Then, some time after he was re-captured, and as he explains to Timothy "the time of his departure was nigh." He was soon going to die.

Thus the statement was true. "Now that there is no more place for me to work in these regions." He had traveled all over Asia Minor. He did go to Europe, or Euro-Asia as it was probably known at that time.

Still, from Christ's ascension in ~35 AD until Paul's writing Romans in ~58 AD, no one had been to Spain to proclaim Christ. Per Paul's own words, he purposed to go to Spain, not desiring to preach Christ where others had, not wanting to build upon another's labor. We are looking at ~ 25 years from Christ's ascension to Romans being written. Even you admitted not everyone heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. No one is saved outside the gospel. So, people go to hell for being sinners and not just rejecting Christ. Those who died never hearing the gospel could not reject Christ, not knowing He even existed.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You are unable to stay on topic or to post to the OP, so now you resort to personal attacks.
This is the nature of your debate tactics.

Look, last night a troll came on here using the username 'FuttBuckin101'. I called him out on it(Iconoclast can confirm this). He then spammed the board with a porn pic of two sodomites. No admins were online at the time to ban him and clear the pics. He agreed wholeheartedly with one of your posts. I told you, as also did Protestant, that this 'God is love' mantra is the favorite amongst the LGBT community. Also throw in Matthew 7:1.

 

[Rippon]

I note the word "probably." I don't base my faith on speculation. Believe what you will. My faith stands firm.

DHK, the word-twister arrives on the scene again to misrepresent.

If your faith is based on Mark 16:9-20 so be it. Most New Testament scholars, for a long time, believe it not to be a part of the canon.

Again, you are basing faith on the unknown and speculation.

This has nothing to with faith-basing.

I base my faith on the Word of God, the very words of Christ and his inspired promises. I don't dare infer that he is lying

And you don't mind inferring that I believe He is lying --do you? You are a mess.

Just because you don't understand some things doesn't mean God's Word isn't true.

I understand things fine. Among the things I understand is your low level of immaturity.

You know I believe God's Word is true. Yet you feel the need to 'infer' that I don't.

There have always been people who have never heard of Jesus or the Gospel. They are condemned for their sins --not because they rejected Christ. How can one 'reject' what one has never heard?

If you dismiss the fact that their eternal separation is due to the fact that of their sin --that's your problem.

You need a refresher course in Romans chapters one and two.

 

[DHK]

Still, from Christ's ascension in ~35 AD until Paul's writing Romans in ~58 AD, no one had been to Spain to proclaim Christ.

You don't know that. It is an assumption based on no written records found. "Facts" based on assumptions don't makeup the truth. Far from it.

Per Paul's own words, he purposed to go to Spain, not desiring to preach Christ where others had, not wanting to build upon another's labor.

That is Paul's purpose in life, generally stated. He knew where most of the apostles went, not where all believers went. Shortly after Pentecost the entire church at Jerusalem was dispersed because of his persecution of them. They went everywhere preaching the word. How far did they go? We don't know how far they went, and to whom they went. It is not recorded.
We also have the remarkable record of the faith of missionary activities of other churches.

1Th 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

We also find that Priscilla and Aquilla, who were in Ephesus in Acts 18 were found in Rome in Romans 15, and the church in their household. I don't think Paul kept track of everyone. He didn't have a computer, the internet, not even a phone or even morse code. Any one from any of the churches he started (over one hundred), or the believers from Pentecost onward, could have gone to Spain very easily and taken the gospel there. We just don't know.
The truth of the Bible is not built on speculation but on that which is written.

We are looking at ~ 25 years from Christ's ascension to Romans being written. Even you admitted not everyone heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. No one is saved outside the gospel. So, people go to hell for being sinners and not just rejecting Christ. Those who died never hearing the gospel could not reject Christ, not knowing He even existed.

Those who receive the gospel enter heaven; those that reject the gospel go to hell.
Jesus said that he was the only way to heaven.
I trust in God's written word, not in the speculation of man.

 

[DHK]

Look, last night a troll came on here using the username 'FuttBuckin101'. I called him out on it(Iconoclast can confirm this). He then spammed the board with a porn pic of two sodomites. No admins were online at the time to ban him and clear the pics. He agreed wholeheartedly with one of your posts. I told you, as also did Protestant, that this 'God is love' mantra is the favorite amongst the LGBT community. Also throw in Matthew 7:1.

Eventually he got kicked off, but now you are carnal enough to link me with me. Is that how low you will go?

 

[DHK]

DHK, the word-twister arrives on the scene again to misrepresent.

No debate here; just needless ad hominems.

If your faith is based on Mark 16:9-20 so be it. Most New Testament scholars, for a long time, believe it not to be a part of the canon.

My faith is based on the Word of God--all of it. Before Westcott and Hort Mark 16:9-20 was not an issue. With that I will leave my comments, and I trust you will also. Post further comments on this subject in the Versions Forum where they belong.

This has nothing to with faith-basing.

It has to do with speculation. Again, I base my faith on the Word of God, not on man's speculation. Speculate all you want. I believe the Word of God.

And you don't mind inferring that I believe He is lying --do you? You are a mess.

More ad hominem; more personal attack; less debate. Typical.
I didn't infer anything.

I said very plainly:
I base my faith on the Word of God, the very words of Christ and his inspired promises. I don't dare infer that he is lying and pit his promises against your speculation. Just because you don't understand some things doesn't mean God's Word isn't true.[/quote]
I didn't infer anyone is lying. I stated my belief. But someone here is simply making false accusations for the fun of it; for his own enjoyment. Pitiful.

I understand things fine. Among the things I understand is your low level of immaturity.

You are doing a very good job at demonstrating your own level of maturity. You haven't even referred to the OP. What is your purpose for being here any way?
You are also demonstrating very well the truth and reality of "carnal Christians."

You know I believe God's Word is true. Yet you feel the need to 'infer' that I don't.

I never inferred that anyone did not believe in God's Word. When a person goes outside of God's Word they are not basing what they believe, or their opinion on that particular subject on the Word of God. You can believe that the moon is made of green cheese or of any other subject for that matter, but don't base it on the Word of God. God's Word remains silent on such subjects.

There have always been people who have never heard of Jesus or the Gospel. They are condemned for their sins --not because they rejected Christ. How can one 'reject' what one has never heard?

God knows the hearts, the intention of the hearts, why they have not heard, if they would hear if someone was sent to them, etc.
Why did Cornelius hear; why did the Ethiopian eunuch hear? Why did God choose these men to hear the gospel out of so many other gentiles? Answer these questions and you will find, at least in part, the answers to some of your other questions.

If you dismiss the fact that their eternal separation is due to the fact that of their sin --that's your problem.

You need a refresher course in Romans chapters one and two.

I don't have a problem. I simply take Christ at his word. It is really a very simple thing to do.

 

[agedman]

Those poor Armenians. They have been mistaken for Arminians so much of the time.
Granted, many of them may be Arminians. But don't confuse a nation with a theological label.

sorry, haste makes for mistakes that spell check doesn't catch

Thanks, for the gentle correction, I'll edit.