Unconditional Election

[Van]

More wasting of time, ignoring post 157 and claiming I did not deal with the fictional view presented using John 6:64-65.

Just because a phrase, come to Jesus, can be used in more than one way, does not suggest it was used as come to Jesus in John 6:37.

All you are doing is rewriting the text, with unsubstantiated claims that come to Me in John 6:37 means come to faith. Not what it says.

By the numbers:

1) Verse 64 says God knows who actually believes. Thus God is the one who credits our faith as righteousness or not, Romans 4:4-5/24.

2) Verse 65 says no one can come to Me unless it[referring to being placed in Christ] has been granted by the Father. This is referring to being placed spiritually in Christ based on crediting their faith or not, as righteousness. It is God who saves us, it does not depend on the man that wills or the man that runs.

3) Calvinism simply rewrites verse after verse to make them say something different than what they actually say. Come to me means come to me, i.e. arrive in Me, in this John 6 passage.

4) In John 6:37 note that the person who has "come to me" is in Christ, because he will not be cast out. You can only cast out what has been put in. And who is it who puts us in Christ? God!!! Thus only those who God puts in Christ are the ones granted by the Father to come into Christ

 

[Van]

Returning to topic, after yet another side-trip to the mistaken defense total spiritual inability, Unconditional Election has been shown to be mistaken. The Bible teaches in verse after verse conditional election for salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. James 2:5. 1 Corinthians 1:26-30. 1 Peter 2:9-10. Romans 11:5. John 3:16.

 

[The Biblicist]

Just because a phrase, come to Jesus, can be used in more than one way, does not suggest it was used as come to Jesus in John 6:37.

Show us one solitary time that when Christ says "come unto me" or "cometh unto me" or "come to me" is addressed to his audiance it does not mean come to him in faith!

In regard to John 6:37-40 and Jn. 6:64-65 both are introduced by Christ pointing out the UNBELIEF of others in his audiance (Jn. 6:36; 6:64) followed immediately by the reason they are in unbelief. If you can't see this you can't see anything.

 

[The Biblicist]

Returning to topic, after yet another side-trip to the mistaken defense total spiritual inability, Unconditional Election has been shown to be mistaken. The Bible teaches in verse after verse conditional election for salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. James 2:5. 1 Corinthians 1:26-30. 1 Peter 2:9-10. Romans 11:5. John 3:16.

You are just like a parrot who can repeat an assertion and thinks that simply repeating it over and over it becomes truth! Your interpretation has been shown to absolute eisgetical nonsense and you have no answers EXCEPT vain repetitious unsubstantiated assertions.

 

[The Biblicist]

1) Verse 64 says God knows who actually believes. Thus God is the one who credits our faith as righteousness or not, Romans 4:4-5/24.

Where in the context does Jesus say one solitary word about "credits our faith as righteousness"? Nowhere! You force into this context what it does not say.

2) Verse 65 says no one can come to Me unless it[referring to being placed in Christ] has been granted by the Father. This is referring to being placed spiritually in Christ based on crediting their faith or not, as righteousness. It is God who saves us, it does not depend on the man that wills or the man that runs.

Where in this context does it say one word about "being placed in Christ"??? Nowhere! Again you are practicing eisgesis instead of exegesis - you are reading your position into the text.

In both texts Jesus points out UNBELIEF (vv. 36, 64) and in each case the REASON for their unbelief is immediatley stated (vv. 37-45; 65). This is exegetically sound and nothing you can say can overturn it.


Jn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

hence, those in verse 36 are not part of "all" in verses 37-40 becuase "ALL" in verses 37-40 do in fact both "see" and "come" or believe in him (v. 40).

So simple, so clear, only prejudice or a seared conscience or pure stubborness cannot see this.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Anyone with eyes to see can see that those in verse 64 do not believe BECAUSE they were not given "it" by the Father in vers 65 and "it" has for its antecedent refers back to verse 64 and failure to believe.

So simple, so clear that it takes willful blindness to deny it.

3) Calvinism simply rewrites verse after verse to make them say something different than what they actually say. Come to me means come to me, i.e. arrive in Me, in this John 6 passage.

What a joke! The irony is that you do nothing but READ INTO these texts what neither the text or context acutally says while I do noting other than interpret the text by its context.

4) In John 6:37 note that the person who has "come to me" is in Christ, because he will not be cast out. You can only cast out what has been put in. And who is it who puts us in Christ? God!!! Thus only those who God puts in Christ are the ones granted by the Father to come into Christ

You need to read the text again! Giving precedes coming and coming precedes not being cast out. They don't come in order to be given and they can't be cast out unless they first come - coming equals faith as it is set in contrast to verse 36 and those who "BELIEVE NOT."

You can't understand what you read and you intentionaly pervet what you do read.

 

[The Biblicist]

Returning to topic, after yet another side-trip to the mistaken defense total spiritual inability, Unconditional Election has been shown to be mistaken. The Bible teaches in verse after verse conditional election for salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. James 2:5. 1 Corinthians 1:26-30. 1 Peter 2:9-10. Romans 11:5. John 3:16.

Van is a perfect example of those who have no training in exegesis and/or sound rules of interpretation. They just jerk a word or text out of its context, ignore the grammar, ignore the syntax and create their false doctrines or manufacture their theories out of thin air in spite of the what the text and context, sytnax and basic rules of hermeneutics that clearly demand is the contrary.

1. The prepositional phrases in 2 Thes. 2:13 and 1 Pet. 1:2 both do not modify election but Van forces this upon them. In 2 Thes. 2:13 the prepositional phrase "through......." modifies "salvation" not "chosen" as Van wishes it did and ignores the grammar. In 1 Pet. 1:3 the same prepositional phrase "through...." modifies "foreknowledge" not "elect". In 2 Thessalonians 2:13 the prepositional phrase describes the MEANS of salvation not the basis or means of election. However, grammar, proper hermeneutics mean nothing to Van as he has only one object in view and that is to disprove the Biblical doctrine of unconditional election at any cost even if he must pervert the Scriptures by his rash hands.

2. The grammatical antecedent for "it" in John 6:65 refers to "draw" in verse 44 but in context is placed in opposition to "beleive not" in verse 64. Peter, who was listening and responded to these words understood "it" to refer to faith as he immediately says in response to those who went away in unbelief:

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Jesus is intentionally contrasting the "all" in John 6:37 with those whom he says "believe not" in verse 36:

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is so simple and so clear that only a infant in the faith or a deceived person can fail to see it! The subject is faith in him in verse 25. The audiance in verse 36 believe not and the reason they do not believe is stated in verses 37-39 because they are not "of all" those given to the Son. All those given to the Son do see and do believe in verse 40 as contrasted to those in verse 37 which do see him but do not believe.

So simple, so clear, so easy to understand and so obvious that only a blind person or a person whose conscience is seared by false doctrine cannot see it.

 

[Yeshua1]

Sounds similar to something Martyn Lloyd-Jones wrote!

oh oh! van agrees with a famous calvinist?

 

[Yeshua1]

Van is a perfect example of those who have no training in exegesis and/or sound rules of interpretation. They just jerk a word or text out of its context, ignore the grammar, ignore the syntax and create their false doctrines or manufacture their theories out of thin air in spite of the what the text and context, sytnax and basic rules of hermeneutics that clearly demand is the contrary.

1. The prepositional phrases in 2 Thes. 2:13 and 1 Pet. 1:2 both do not modify election but Van forces this upon them. In 2 Thes. 2:13 the prepositional phrase "through......." modifies "salvation" not "chosen" as Van wishes it did and ignores the grammar. In 1 Pet. 1:3 the same prepositional phrase "through...." modifies "foreknowledge" not "elect". In 2 Thessalonians 2:13 the prepositional phrase describes the MEANS of salvation not the basis or means of election. However, grammar, proper hermeneutics mean nothing to Van as he has only one object in view and that is to disprove the Biblical doctrine of unconditional election at any cost even if he must pervert the Scriptures by his rash hands.

2. The grammatical antecedent for "it" in John 6:65 refers to "draw" in verse 44 but in context is placed in opposition to "beleive not" in verse 64. Peter, who was listening and responded to these words understood "it" to refer to faith as he immediately says in response to those who went away in unbelief:

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Jesus is intentionally contrasting the "all" in John 6:37 with those whom he says "believe not" in verse 36:

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is so simple and so clear that only a infant in the faith or a deceived person can fail to see it! The subject is faith in him in verse 25. The audiance in verse 36 believe not and the reason they do not believe is stated in verses 37-39 because they are not "of all" those given to the Son. All those given to the Son do see and do believe in verse 40 as contrasted to those in verse 37 which do see him but do not believe.

So simple, so clear, so easy to understand and so obvious that only a blind person or a person whose conscience is seared by false doctrine cannot see it.

he HAS tro fit it into his construct that we freely chose jesus as our messiah by act of the will, and that faith we exercise is what God credits as saving us, which is odd, as the basis of god doing that is the Cross!

 

[Van]

Pitchback

Show us one solitary time that when Christ says "come unto me" or "cometh unto me" or "come to me" is addressed to his audiance it does not mean come to him in faith!

In regard to John 6:37-40 and Jn. 6:64-65 both are introduced by Christ pointing out the UNBELIEF of others in his audiance (Jn. 6:36; 6:64) followed immediately by the reason they are in unbelief. If you can't see this you can't see anything.

Words have meaning, come to me means come to me, not come to faith. I have what scripture says, you have your fictional rewrite.

Why does God give folks to Christ? Because God credits their faith as righteousness.

Lets review the passage:

John 6:26, Jesus tells the multitude, they are seeking Jesus because of the wrong reason, i.e. the material sustenance provided by the miracle of the bread.

27: Jesus say they should not make efforts to gain temporal sustenance, but instead should seek eternal life.

28: They ask what they need to do to obtain this eternal life.

29: Jesus tells them that the work God requires of them is to believe in Jesus.

30: They said, give us a miracles so that we will believe. Thus they understand that the work is theirs and not God's.

31: They try to support the validity of their request for a miracle by referring to God providing manna from heaven.

32-34 They again ask for the bread of eternal life.

35: Jesus says he who comes to me will never hunger and he who believes in me will never thirst. The idea here is that coming to Jesus is to gather around Him and so to hear His gospel.

36: Those that have come ( to see Him) do not believe. Thus coming to Jesus does not equate with believing in Jesus.
But refers to being in proximity with Jesus.

37: However, the ones the Father gives to Me, shall come to (arrive in) Me. This then is not referring to our effort to be in the proximity of Jesus, but God's action to put us in Christ, where we will not be cast out.

So the bottom line is a change in location effected by God, not our believing.

 

[Van]

Pitchback

You are just like a parrot who can repeat an assertion and thinks that simply repeating it over and over it becomes truth! Your interpretation has been shown to absolute eisgetical nonsense and you have no answers EXCEPT vain repetitious unsubstantiated assertions.

This post is devoid of content, and is simply an evasion of the topic. Note the reference to something presented in the past as if it was valid. Standard malarkey.

 

[The Biblicist]

, you have your fictional rewrite.

You have the gall to accuse me of this when I use the scripture while you are forced to PARAPHRASE the scripture in order to force it to mean what you want?:laugh:

Don't you realize that everyone on this forum can see what you are doing to God's Word?????? You can't quote the actual text because it exposes your false doctrine so you make it up and rewrite it to suit yourself.

 

[The Biblicist]

Words have meaning, come to me means come to me, not come to faith. I have what scripture says, you have your fictional rewrite.

Why does God give folks to Christ? Because God credits their faith as righteousness.

Lets review the passage:

John 6:26, Jesus tells the multitude, they are seeking Jesus because of the wrong reason, i.e. the material sustenance provided by the miracle of the bread.

27: Jesus say they should not make efforts to gain temporal sustenance, but instead should seek eternal life.

28: They ask what they need to do to obtain this eternal life.

29: Jesus tells them that the work God requires of them is to believe in Jesus.

30: They said, give us a miracles so that we will believe. Thus they understand that the work is theirs and not God's.

31: They try to support the validity of their request for a miracle by referring to God providing manna from heaven.

32-34 They again ask for the bread of eternal life.

35: Jesus says he who comes to me will never hunger and he who believes in me will never thirst. The idea here is that coming to Jesus is to gather around Him and so to hear His gospel.

36: Those that have come ( to see Him) do not believe. Thus coming to Jesus does not equate with believing in Jesus.
But refers to being in proximity with Jesus.

37: However, the ones the Father gives to Me, shall come to (arrive in) Me. This then is not referring to our effort to be in the proximity of Jesus, but God's action to put us in Christ, where we will not be cast out.

So the bottom line is a change in location effected by God, not our believing.

Look at this fictional rewrite paraphased mess of Van's and he has the gall to accuse me of fictional rewrite::laugh:

This is the only way Van can deal with the Scripture - rewrite it, paraphrase it, add his own commentary to it. Of course who can refute something that is fictional in the first place. Use God's Word instead of your imagination!

 

[The Biblicist]

Van is a perfect example of those who have no training in exegesis and/or sound rules of interpretation. They just jerk a word or text out of its context, ignore the grammar, ignore the syntax and create their false doctrines or manufacture their theories out of thin air in spite of the what the text and context, sytnax and basic rules of hermeneutics that clearly demand is the contrary.

1. The prepositional phrases in 2 Thes. 2:13 and 1 Pet. 1:2 both do not modify election but Van forces this upon them. In 2 Thes. 2:13 the prepositional phrase "through......." modifies "salvation" not "chosen" as Van wishes it did and ignores the grammar. In 1 Pet. 1:3 the same prepositional phrase "through...." modifies "foreknowledge" not "elect". In 2 Thessalonians 2:13 the prepositional phrase describes the MEANS of salvation not the basis or means of election. However, grammar, proper hermeneutics mean nothing to Van as he has only one object in view and that is to disprove the Biblical doctrine of unconditional election at any cost even if he must pervert the Scriptures by his rash hands.

2. The grammatical antecedent for "it" in John 6:65 refers to "draw" in verse 44 but in context is placed in opposition to "beleive not" in verse 64. Peter, who was listening and responded to these words understood "it" to refer to faith as he immediately says in response to those who went away in unbelief:

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Jesus is intentionally contrasting the "all" in John 6:37 with those whom he says "believe not" in verse 36:

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is so simple and so clear that only a infant in the faith or a deceived person can fail to see it! The subject is faith in him in verse 25. The audiance in verse 36 believe not and the reason they do not believe is stated in verses 37-39 because they are not "of all" those given to the Son. All those given to the Son do see and do believe in verse 40 as contrasted to those in verse 37 which do see him but do not believe.

So simple, so clear, so easy to understand and so obvious that only a blind person or a person whose conscience is seared by false doctrine cannot see it.

This still stands as Van has not and cannot HONESTLY deal with it.

 

[Van]

Pitchback

Where in the context does Jesus say one solitary word about "credits our faith as righteousness"? Nowhere! You force into this context what it does not say.

LOL These were professing disciples, yet Jesus knew who really believed. Thus He credited some with faith and others not. Exact same idea here in this context, as in Romans 4:4-5.

Where in this context does it say one word about "being placed in Christ"??? Nowhere! Again you are practicing eisgesis instead of exegesis - you are reading your position into the text.

The context is the same phrase is used in verse 37 where a person is placed in Christ, because then he shall not be cast out. The word translated coming in verse 65 of John 6 means to travel and change location, it has not meaning of faith. Thus my view is contextual and yours is not.

In both texts Jesus points out UNBELIEF (vv. 36, 64) and in each case the REASON for their unbelief is immediatley stated (vv. 37-45; 65). This is exegetically sound and nothing you can say can overturn it.


Jn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This supports my view completely. Coming to me by our own volition puts us in proximity and able to believe the message or not. However, when God gives a believer to Christ, they are put in Christ and shall not be cast out.

hence, those in verse 36 are not part of "all" in verses 37-40 because "ALL" in verses 37-40 do in fact both "see" and "come" or believe in him (v. 40).

Here we have the complete rewrite of the text. Try coupling come and see, rather than see and believe, because in the context, many came and saw but did not believe. You exegetical effort is a joke.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Anyone with eyes to see can see that those in verse 64 do not believe BECAUSE they were not given "it" by the Father in vers 65 and "it" has for its antecedent refers back to verse 64 and failure to believe.

We have been over this before. The it does not refer to belief, the it refers to being place in Christ, no one can come to Me unless it, coming to Me, has been granted by the Father. Any other reading is simply pouring Calvinism's mistaken views into the text.

You need to read the text again! Giving precedes coming and coming precedes not being cast out. They don't come in order to be given and they can't be cast out unless they first come - coming equals faith as it is set in contrast to verse 36 and those who "BELIEVE NOT."

This incoherant nonsense is what Calvinism boils down to.

1. John 6:37, Giving precedes coming. Yes

2. John 6:37, Arriving in Christ, not coming into the proximity of Christ, precedes not being cast out. Yes.

3. John 6:37, They do not come to be given. Yes

4. John 6:37, They cannot be cast out unless they have been put into Christ. Yes.

5. Coming equals being placed in Christ after a person's faith has been credited as righteousness. Yes.

6. Coming does not equal faith. This is the Calvinist rewrite of John 6:37. Not what is written. Not even possible. Pure nonsense.

 

[The Biblicist]

Show us one solitary time that when Christ says "come unto me" or "cometh unto me" or "come to me" is addressed to his audiance it does not mean come to him in faith!

In regard to John 6:37-40 and Jn. 6:64-65 both are introduced by Christ pointing out the UNBELIEF of others in his audiance (Jn. 6:36; 6:64) followed immediately by the reason they are in unbelief. If you can't see this you can't see anything.

Van still can't meet this challenge and has not yet!

 

[Van]

Pitchback

You have the gall to accuse me of this when I use the scripture while you are forced to PARAPHRASE the scripture in order to force it to mean what you want?:laugh:

Don't you realize that everyone on this forum can see what you are doing to God's Word?????? You can't quote the actual text because it exposes your false doctrine so you make it up and rewrite it to suit yourself.

More personal attacks, devoid of content. This is what happens to every Calvinist, who actually tries to support the mistaken doctrine from scripture. I cannot be done.

 

[Van]

Pitchback

Van still can't meet this challenge and has not yet!

Yet another tactic is to claim something has not been addressed. I showed how my view was in context. No mention of it here. Go figure.

 

[Van]

This is my commentary on the passage, putting forth my understanding and basis of my view.

Lets review the passage:

John 6:26, Jesus tells the multitude, they are seeking Jesus because of the wrong reason, i.e. the material sustenance provided by the miracle of the bread.

27: Jesus say they should not make efforts to gain temporal sustenance, but instead should seek eternal life.

28: They ask what they need to do to obtain this eternal life.

29: Jesus tells them that the work God requires of them is to believe in Jesus.

30: They said, give us a miracles so that we will believe. Thus they understand that the work is theirs and not God's.

31: They try to support the validity of their request for a miracle by referring to God providing manna from heaven.

32-34 They again ask for the bread of eternal life.

35: Jesus says he who comes to me will never hunger and he who believes in me will never thirst. The idea here is that coming to Jesus is to gather around Him and so to hear His gospel.

36: Those that have come ( to see Him) do not believe. Thus coming to Jesus does not equate with believing in Jesus.
But refers to being in proximity with Jesus.

37: However, the ones the Father gives to Me, shall come to (arrive in) Me. This then is not referring to our effort to be in the proximity of Jesus, but God's action to put us in Christ, where we will not be cast out.

So the bottom line is a change in location effected by God, not our believing.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Show us one solitary time that when Christ says "come unto me" or "cometh unto me" or "come to me" is addressed to his audiance it does not mean come to him in faith!

In regard to John 6:37-40 and Jn. 6:64-65 both are introduced by Christ pointing out the UNBELIEF of others in his audiance (Jn. 6:36; 6:64) followed immediately by the reason they are in unbelief. If you can't see this you can't see anything.

Mark brother, you dont think they are really going to understand this......do you? This is the crux of it......everything else is conversation.

Amen for trying though....:thumbsup: :jesus:

 

[The Biblicist]

LOL These were professing disciples, yet Jesus knew who really believed. Thus He credited some with faith and others not. Exact same idea here in this context, as in Romans 4:4-5.

Again complete dishonesty with God's Word! Reading what you want into the text. Romans 4:4-5 deals with JUSTIFICAITON not ELECTION.

The context is the same phrase is used in verse 37 where a person is placed in Christ,

What a joke! You don't know the difference between justification and election. The context is not the same and anyone capable of reading English can see it is not the same.

because then he shall not be cast out. The word translated coming in verse 65 of John 6 means to travel and change location,

What a joke! It is the very same Greek word used throughout the gospel of John and in every place Jesus invites sinners to come to him in faith. Don't you have a Strong's concordance or some kind of concordance???????

However, when God gives a believer to Christ, they are put in Christ and shall not be cast out.

Jesus does not say All the Father gives to me shall be PUT IN ME! That is your false concoction and mishandling of God's Word. He says all the father gives me shall "come to me." Coming is faith as it is placed in direct contrast to "beleive not" and those in verse 36 and it is defined as "beleiveth" in verse 40 as in direct contrast to those in verse 36.

You must pervert God's Word by your rash hands in order to escape what it says and what it contextual means.

Here we have the complete rewrite of the text. Try coupling come and see, rather than see and believe, because in the context, many came and saw but did not believe. You exegetical effort is a joke.

John 6:36 does not say "come and see" but rather they "saw and beleived not." Neither does it say "many came and saw but did not believe" that is your fabricated imaginative rewrite of scripture. It says they "saw and believed not" and then in verse 40 which is placed in direct contrast to those in verse 36 they "see and believeth"

This is so plain, so simple, so easy that only a seared conscience and intentional perversion and rewriting of God's Word can avoid it.

The it does not refer to belief, the it refers to being place in Christ,

What a joke! This "it" must be "GIVEN unto him" and what they are WITHOUT is clearly stated in verse 64 - they are without faith. Verse 64 says NOTHING about being "in" Christ or out of Christ. That is your rewrite of scripture. Do you understand what "exegesis" means rather than "eisgesis"???? You are practicing eisgesis as what you are attempting to MAKE it mean cannot be found in the text or context as there is not one single word about being "placed in Christ" in the entire context. This is all about "faith" from verse 29 to verse 70 and Peter understood it was about believing in Christ because when the other disciples left Christ he replied "we believe"

no one can come to Me unless it, coming to Me, has been granted by the Father.

Coming is an act YOU DO while being placed in Christ is an act God does. You are fabricating and rewriting the text to suit your own belly.

This incoherant nonsense is what Calvinism boils down to.

You have perfectly described the utter and absolute fictional nonsense you are forced to read into these scriptures and everyone on this forum can see your nonsense.

1. John 6:37, Giving precedes coming. Yes

2. John 6:37, Arriving in Christ, not coming into the proximity of Christ, precedes not being cast out. Yes.

Giving is what God does but coming is what you do and therefore coming cannot possibly refer to being placed in Christ because only God can do that. However, that is the total nonsense you are attempting to teach here.

3. John 6:37, They do not come to be given. Yes

Your #1 contradicts your #3! They do not come in order to be given as that is your imaginative rewrite of this text. They come because they were given just as you admit in #1. You can't have it both ways. Being giving is the cause not the effect and coming is what they do whereas being placed in Christ is something only God can do.

4. John 6:37, They cannot be cast out unless they have been put into Christ. Yes.

This is so absurd it is hardly worth responding to. The text says NOTHING about being placed "in Christ." Coming to Christ is what those being given to Christ do and they cannot place themselves in Christ. If you want to insert the idea of being placed "in Christ" it could only apply to being "given" by the Father not coming as coming is what "all" do who are given to Christ by the Father and describes their action not the fathers action and it is the Father alone who can place someone in Christ (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13).

So now you are forced to teach the rediculous and unbiblical idea that we place ourselves in Christ when the Bible clearly and explicitly states that is what God alone can do and does (Eph. 1:4; Eph. 2:10; 2 Thes. 2:13; 1 Cor. 1:30; etc.)