"Under God" and "In God We Trust"

Cool Johnv.

buckster, yes we can have our opinions. Which is why I don't appreciate people mocking me or treating me like I'm stupid because I have a different opinion.

Now...are you guys REALLY "one" nation? Last I looked you were split down the middle...and then there's that north/south issue I have been told STILL exists. (not meant to be mocking or anything just to clarify)

 

yeah

 

Take it easy, King James! Your point has been heard. You're correct that there's no "need", much less no desire, for Christians to have God legislated to them by government.

The only purpose I see in these basic statements by government are to affirm the existence of God and man's subordination to Him. This encourages an humble attitude towards - and hopefully a Godly basis for - the design, execution, and judgment of criminal and civil law. It reminds mankind that, even in governing ourselves, we are subordinate to our Creator and, as such, would be foolish not to pattern their ways according to His will even if through civil law.

Government needs not, and should not, respect a particular religion. Individuals will certainly believe something even if it's not the one truth. In the end, it is the individuals in government and the citizens who put them into office that determine the beliefs to which they may or may not collectively hold.

 

Hey dragoon, you make a good point. Reminding is a good thing...as long as it doesn't try to force people to become Christians.

 

James,
that was why I said "true nation" those who claim to be citizen one day and fly a plane into the twin towers the next I do not consider part of the nation. If you have been reading I have the idea (and everyone else has proof I am wrong) that the founders never dreamed of a nation torn when it comes to God. So I call the believers the "true nation"

 

buckster, I see no pm in my profile.

 

ok John I resent

 

I also think, as I said before, that the founders were just short of believing that freedom of religion meant that people cound believe in the God of the Bible any way they wanted to.

 

did you get the message John?

 

Your other comment I have to think upon but this one I think I have an answer for. For them to do that would take away the religious freedom of others who don't believe in the God of the Bible. They would have been no better than England, whom they broke away from.

Sure they wanted people to be free to believe in the God of the Bible any way they wanted. But I'm sure they wanted everyone to have the freedom to believe what they wanted as well.

 

Dragoon,

Thanks VERY much for the link. It's a keeper/Favorite.

As best I can discern, these preambles merely acknowledge the existence of God Almighty and mankind's subordination to Him. That seems like a wise thing to do!

I agree, but at the risk of going afield, I think Roy Moore would disagree as to the meaning and importance of those preambles, as he seemingly took them as a mandate.

 

ftr we can go where ever any one wants as far as I am concerned . we are on borrowed pages anyway.

 

there was a quote from Ben Franklin (whom some believe to have been possibly the least religious of the founders) I wish I could find it. But it was someting to the effect that a nation like ours could only survive by holding fast to the ideals from the Bible. anyone know it?

 

I wonder how God looks on us using money with refrence to Him on it to do our bidding?I wonder how he looks on people pledging allegiance,to a flag and a country were life that he has given is taken every day by law.I wonder if we will ever humble ourselves and confess our sin as a nation.I have personaly struggled with all these issues.From a young age pride pride pride country,school,state,town,sports,American History,self.I have enjoyed you all's discussion many things to think on.RTG .02's

 

roots , roots, roots...why did the fist settlers come to America and what did they believe. (I would be on the other post but don't want to take up any of the 10 pages there.)

 

RTG, I don't think God cares, or at leastm I don't think he cares as much as we think. If I don't like my car because of the way it drives, and save up and buy a new car, and then complain about how it drives, whose fault is it?

I think God looks at us and says "Hey, I gave you the ability to govern yourselves. So don't blame me if you don't like the way it drives."

 

buckster, I know there is an unconfirmed quotation previously used by David Barton, from James Madison, something to the effect that our Founding was predicated on a belief in the Ten Commandments, or something like that. You may be right about one from Franklin, but I'm not familiar with it.

I'll stay away from Judge Moore. I know it's borrowed pages but don't want to steer too far away from the OP topic. Bringing Judge Moore in, along with his intentions and understanding would just take us too far away, I'm afraid. Probably not a bad topic for another thread but it's probably a subject that's been beaten to death.

 

I remember the quote was from BF because the sourse made a similar observation on Ben's faithfulness to church.

 

The quote is:

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

David Barton, quoted that for years, but has since acknowleged that it's false.

Barton also claimed the word of Benjamin Franklin to be "Whosoever shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world." and his organization said the quote fully sums up what Barton believes and teaches. But the quote has also been shown to be bogus, and Barton was forced to instruct people to refrain from using it.

Barton also claimed that Geo Washington said "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.", but it looks like that it bogus as well.

In Barton's book, "The Myth of Separation" and his video "America's Godly Heritage", there are no less than nine quotes attributed to founding fathers that are false. His book has been upated and renamed "Original Intent", but is still copious with errors, half-truths, and revisionism. For some reason beyond my comprehension, Barton still comes off smelling like a rose to many.

 

I did not know there was a "freedom from religion foundation"