"Under God" and "In God We Trust"

C4K,

Why is God absent in the Constitution, but present in the Pledge and as our national motto?

I think Johnv was exactly on:

I'd like to think that buckster was right

but I think that Johnv's is a more accurate answer. They weren't looking to declare moral underpinnings (though maybe buckster has a point that they might have if they knew how far we would slip our moor) only to set up a frame of government.


ScottJ,

The problem we have is that government is now allowed into just about every endeavor and area of life... God according to liberals should be limited to home and church.

"Truer words was never spoke."


I also think that Johnv was exactly right as to the non-binding nature of the Pledge:

The pledge is simply an individual declaration.


C4K,

I'd like to take this up in another thread. Is it Biblical for a Christian to pledge loyalty to a secular government.

Now that's a topic. It sounds intriguing, but not yet sure I want to touch it.

But if it was not intended to be secular, why were our founding fathers so careful not to include God in the Constitution?

I do think it important to recognize, though, that the document which founds us as a separate nation, the Declaration of Independence, has several references to God, including an appeal to the Supreme Judge of the World, and Providence.

C4K, excellent job on keeping us in line and focused on the topic at hand. We have some excellent mods at BB, but you've done an exemplary job in keeping our arrows directed at the topic only and not at each other.

 

Just yesterday I recevied, from a fellow Primitive Baptist, this listing of preambles to the various state constitutions. I haven't checked them all so I'm assuming they are accurate quotations.

 

Dragoon,

Excellent resource! Is this on a website? Link?

 

Don't forget that preambles are not codifications. Plus, no individual state can infringe upon rights guaranteed persons by the US Constitution, and, in accordance with Amendments 9 and 14, each person is guaranted the right to be free of governmental respecting of the establishment of religion, and free governmental prohibition of free excercise of religion.

 

Even this sounds uppity but I don't care. I'm not here to be liked. Let's just get back to the subject. I believe I answered your points so I don't really have anything left to say.

 

A link to the original source wasn't provided to me in the e-mail but if I can find out I'll post it.

 

OK.

 

ftr says to C4K: "He raises an excellent point. Though I understand your reasoning for taking it out(i.e., the hypocrisy of leaving it there),"

I say: My reasoning was the same. I don't appreciate you trying to imply that it wasn't. I can have a civilized debate, however, I get very ticked off with double standards such as you just displayed, or with people trying to force conservatism on me.

Here is the bottom line...either have a theocracy or condone the use of many "gods" in your pledge, which does not please God. Take your pick. I can't believe it took us 11 pages for me to point out the bottom line.

 

Dragoon,

A link to the original source wasn't provided to me in the e-mail but if I can find out I'll post it.

No need, I just thought that if you had it handy.

 

king james:
actually you could have put it on the first page and it would still be what it is. Your opinion. I want under God in the pledge because for me and the remnant of the "true nation" belivers in what I feel ths country was founded on, it still is one nation under God.

 

Don't forget that preambles are not codifications. Plus, no individual state can infringe upon rights guaranteed persons by the US Constitution, and, in accordance with Amendments 9 and 14, each person is guaranted the right to be free of governmental respecting of the establishment of religion, and free governmental prohibition of free excercise of religion. </font>[/QUOTE]As best I can discern, these preambles merely acknowledge the existence of God Almighty and mankind's subordination to Him. That seems like a wise thing to do! Folks have been thinking that way from the inception of our nation and the states that became part of it. These preambles don't "respect" any particular manmade religion nor do they "infringe" on anyone's right to practice their religion or no religion at all.

 

I've known a few Hindus (polytheists), and not one of them ever objected to the phrase "under God" or "in God we trust" as violating their religious beliefs, nor has any Hindu I've known seen these phrases as endorsing a specific religion.

 

And the bottom line goes ignored...

I have to say there is no "place" for God to be or to be taken out of. He is always THERE. Did the early Christians complain about people "taking God" out of the public? I will be a Christian...I don't need the government to make it ok for me and I don't need the government to legislate Christianity upon everyone else. My opinion is unpopular but so be it.

 

Here's the source:

How Could 50 States Be Wrong?

I don't know anything about the Constitutional Freedom Foundation on whose web site this appears.

 

I am making a new rule. Form now on when I look at the flag I will think of the following.

1. the white stripes will remind me of the purity of Christ and how as a follower of Him I should live a pure live as well.

2. the red stripes will remind me of the blood that was shed by Him as He went to the Cross in my place. It also will remind me of those lives lost in defense of a some times ungrateful and uncaring nation.

3. the blue will make me think of Heaven and a time in the future when I will be there with my Savior.

4. the stars will remind me of stars in a crown of reward I might recieve for being the servant I hope I am to God.

 

That's pretty cool Buckster.

When I look at my flag I will think of Christ's blood, His purity, and the maple leaf will remind me of the tree of life.

 

I failed to note earlier that these are statements of respectful thanks and gratitide. It's a falsehood to presume that these quotes in any way suggest that the states disagree withe the Amendment I concept of separation of church and state.

Also, it should be noted, for accuracy, that 43 states feature divine references in their Preamble. The remaining 7 occurrences refer to God in their religious freedom provisions (their versions of Amendment I.

Actually, your opinion is exactly in line with the Founding Fathers, and the Framers of the Constitution.

In reality, what you envision has already been excercized in the diaplaying of the Christian Standard (the Christian Flag). Pretty cool, though.

The only reason I respectfully rebut your post is because I don't want to take away from the significance of the thousands who died in the formation of this country (whose memory is represented in the US flag's colors).

[ September 20, 2005, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

James,
no it was not ignored it was restated. the bottom line is that we get to state our opinions. and in peace and brotherhood of being believers.

 

eh. Brother from up north. cool.

 

and since we are over the 10 pages . a personal note asking John why he has not relpied to the PM I sent him