"Under God" and "In God We Trust"

[fromtheright]

C4K,

Why is God absent in the Constitution, but present in the Pledge and as our national motto?

I think Johnv was exactly on:

Simple. Because the Constitution is not a document of patriotism. It's a document of law.

I'd like to think that buckster was right

I think I said someting along these lines before as to why I think it is absent. I think it is because (and I posted some quotes from George Washington about this) the founders never dreamed of this nation getting so far away from God so they did not think it necessary to include.

but I think that Johnv's is a more accurate answer. They weren't looking to declare moral underpinnings (though maybe buckster has a point that they might have if they knew how far we would slip our moor) only to set up a frame of government.


ScottJ,

The problem we have is that government is now allowed into just about every endeavor and area of life... God according to liberals should be limited to home and church.

"Truer words was never spoke."


I also think that Johnv was exactly right as to the non-binding nature of the Pledge:

It's a matter of the heart. One can say say the pledge and have it be a vain repitition. One can say the pledge and take it to heart. Or one can refrain from saying the pledge completely.

The pledge is simply an individual declaration.


C4K,

I'd like to take this up in another thread. Is it Biblical for a Christian to pledge loyalty to a secular government.

Now that's a topic. It sounds intriguing, but not yet sure I want to touch it.

But if it was not intended to be secular, why were our founding fathers so careful not to include God in the Constitution?

I do think it important to recognize, though, that the document which founds us as a separate nation, the Declaration of Independence, has several references to God, including an appeal to the Supreme Judge of the World, and Providence.

C4K, excellent job on keeping us in line and focused on the topic at hand. We have some excellent mods at BB, but you've done an exemplary job in keeping our arrows directed at the topic only and not at each other.

 

[Dragoon68]

Just yesterday I recevied, from a fellow Primitive Baptist, this listing of preambles to the various state constitutions. I haven't checked them all so I'm assuming they are accurate quotations.

Extract from a Fellow Primitive Baptist:
Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution ...

Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land.

Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom.

Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe.

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...

Delaware! 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences ...

Florida 1885, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution...

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance ... establish this Constitution.

Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings.

Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of government.

Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings ... establish this Constitution

Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges, establish this Constitution.

Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of Kentucky grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.

Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine . acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity ... and imploring His aid and direction.

Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe . in the course of His Providence, an opportunity .and devoutly imploring His direction

Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom ... establish this Constitution

Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings

Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness, establish this Constitution.

Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty. establish this Constitution

Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom. establish this Constitution.

Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution.

New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.

New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors

New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of Liberty

New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.

North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the Southern Baptist people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those.

North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common.

Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty ... establish this.

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences.

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance.

Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of the State of South Carolina. grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties ... establish this constitution.

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefensible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...

Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.

Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution.

Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to ... enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man ...

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI .. Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator .. can be directed only by Reason, and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other.

Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution ...

West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God.

Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility.

Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties .. establish this Constitution ...

 

[fromtheright]

Dragoon,

Excellent resource! Is this on a website? Link?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Dragoon68:
Just yesterday I recevied, from a fellow Primitive Baptist, this listing of preambles to the various state constitutions.

Don't forget that preambles are not codifications. Plus, no individual state can infringe upon rights guaranteed persons by the US Constitution, and, in accordance with Amendments 9 and 14, each person is guaranted the right to be free of governmental respecting of the establishment of religion, and free governmental prohibition of free excercise of religion.

 

[OCC]

Originally posted by fromtheright:
KJ,

I wasn't being uppity, they were fair questions as part of the discussion and reasonable responses. In order to keep this discussion on a nice level, if you're going to take offense at such questions, the best response seems to be to discontinue further discussion with you here.

Even this sounds uppity but I don't care. I'm not here to be liked. Let's just get back to the subject. I believe I answered your points so I don't really have anything left to say.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by fromtheright:
Dragoon,

Excellent resource! Is this on a website? Link?

A link to the original source wasn't provided to me in the e-mail but if I can find out I'll post it.

 

[fromtheright]

OK.

 

[OCC]

ftr says to C4K: "He raises an excellent point. Though I understand your reasoning for taking it out(i.e., the hypocrisy of leaving it there),"

I say: My reasoning was the same. I don't appreciate you trying to imply that it wasn't. I can have a civilized debate, however, I get very ticked off with double standards such as you just displayed, or with people trying to force conservatism on me.

Here is the bottom line...either have a theocracy or condone the use of many "gods" in your pledge, which does not please God. Take your pick. I can't believe it took us 11 pages for me to point out the bottom line.

 

[fromtheright]

Dragoon,

A link to the original source wasn't provided to me in the e-mail but if I can find out I'll post it.

No need, I just thought that if you had it handy.

 

[buckster75]

king james:
actually you could have put it on the first page and it would still be what it is. Your opinion. I want under God in the pledge because for me and the remnant of the "true nation" belivers in what I feel ths country was founded on, it still is one nation under God.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dragoon68:
Just yesterday I recevied, from a fellow Primitive Baptist, this listing of preambles to the various state constitutions.

Don't forget that preambles are not codifications. Plus, no individual state can infringe upon rights guaranteed persons by the US Constitution, and, in accordance with Amendments 9 and 14, each person is guaranted the right to be free of governmental respecting of the establishment of religion, and free governmental prohibition of free excercise of religion. </font>[/QUOTE]As best I can discern, these preambles merely acknowledge the existence of God Almighty and mankind's subordination to Him. That seems like a wise thing to do! Folks have been thinking that way from the inception of our nation and the states that became part of it. These preambles don't "respect" any particular manmade religion nor do they "infringe" on anyone's right to practice their religion or no religion at all.

 

[Johnv]

I've known a few Hindus (polytheists), and not one of them ever objected to the phrase "under God" or "in God we trust" as violating their religious beliefs, nor has any Hindu I've known seen these phrases as endorsing a specific religion.

 

[OCC]

And the bottom line goes ignored...

I have to say there is no "place" for God to be or to be taken out of. He is always THERE. Did the early Christians complain about people "taking God" out of the public? I will be a Christian...I don't need the government to make it ok for me and I don't need the government to legislate Christianity upon everyone else. My opinion is unpopular but so be it.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by fromtheright:
Dragoon,

A link to the original source wasn't provided to me in the e-mail but if I can find out I'll post it.

No need, I just thought that if you had it handy.

Here's the source:

How Could 50 States Be Wrong?

I don't know anything about the Constitutional Freedom Foundation on whose web site this appears.

 

[buckster75]

I am making a new rule. Form now on when I look at the flag I will think of the following.

1. the white stripes will remind me of the purity of Christ and how as a follower of Him I should live a pure live as well.

2. the red stripes will remind me of the blood that was shed by Him as He went to the Cross in my place. It also will remind me of those lives lost in defense of a some times ungrateful and uncaring nation.

3. the blue will make me think of Heaven and a time in the future when I will be there with my Savior.

4. the stars will remind me of stars in a crown of reward I might recieve for being the servant I hope I am to God.

 

[OCC]

That's pretty cool Buckster.

When I look at my flag I will think of Christ's blood, His purity, and the maple leaf will remind me of the tree of life.

 

[Johnv]

Here's the source:

How Could 50 States Be Wrong?

I failed to note earlier that these are statements of respectful thanks and gratitide. It's a falsehood to presume that these quotes in any way suggest that the states disagree withe the Amendment I concept of separation of church and state.

Also, it should be noted, for accuracy, that 43 states feature divine references in their Preamble. The remaining 7 occurrences refer to God in their religious freedom provisions (their versions of Amendment I.

Originally posted by King James:
I don't need the government to make it ok for me [to be a Christian] and I don't need the government to legislate Christianity upon everyone else. My opinion is unpopular but so be it.

Actually, your opinion is exactly in line with the Founding Fathers, and the Framers of the Constitution.

Originally posted by buckster75:
I am making a new rule. Form now on when I look at the flag I will think of the following.

In reality, what you envision has already been excercized in the diaplaying of the Christian Standard (the Christian Flag). Pretty cool, though.

The only reason I respectfully rebut your post is because I don't want to take away from the significance of the thousands who died in the formation of this country (whose memory is represented in the US flag's colors).

[ September 20, 2005, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

[buckster75]

James,
no it was not ignored it was restated. the bottom line is that we get to state our opinions. and in peace and brotherhood of being believers.

 

[buckster75]

eh. Brother from up north. cool.

 

[buckster75]

and since we are over the 10 pages . a personal note asking John why he has not relpied to the PM I sent him