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"Under God" and "In God We Trust"

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by NaasPreacher (C4K), Sep 18, 2005.

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  1. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    Johnv,

    I may very well be missing it but where in the Constitution is that given? There is the religious test clause just after the requirement that officers be bound by oath or affirmation.
     
    #61 fromtheright, Sep 19, 2005
  2. OCC

    OCC Guest

    In a capitalist society, you are against gambling???

    Anyway...I just have to ask...what "God" is the one in the Pledge of Allegiance? Is it Jesus Christ? Allah? Who?
     
    #62 OCC, Sep 19, 2005
  3. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    I can't see the logic of a secular school system compelling secular staff and students to acknowledge a God they don't believe in.

    You think the state mandating the saying of "under God" everyday is going to draw men to Christ? Isn't that our job?
     
    #63 NaasPreacher (C4K), Sep 19, 2005
  4. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    fromtheright:

    http://www.undergodprocon.org/pop/curiosities.htm
     
    #64 I Am Blessed 24, Sep 19, 2005
  5. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    You don't think ALL the students and teachers in secular schools are nonbelievers do you?

    Why should a Christian bow to the wishes of the lost?
     
    #65 I Am Blessed 24, Sep 19, 2005
  6. buckster75

    buckster75 Member

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    "but to compel those who do not honour God with their lives to "honour" Him with their lips surely is not wise."

    I thought there was already a law allowing those who did not want to say it to not to.
     
    #66 buckster75, Sep 19, 2005
  7. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    The constitution's presidential oath allows a person to "affirm" an office instead of "swearing" an oath. This was inserted to acommodate Quakers, who had a custom of not believing in the swearing under oath.
     
    #67 Johnv, Sep 19, 2005
  8. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    You don't think ALL the students and teachers in secular schools are nonbelievers do you?

    Why should a Christian bow to the wishes of the lost?     </font>[/QUOTE]Christians are free to say whatever they want during the Pledge.

    Of course not EVERY staff member and student is lost. We have been talking in general terms all along.
     
    #68 NaasPreacher (C4K), Sep 19, 2005
  9. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    In a capitalist society, you are against gambling???

    Anyway...I just have to ask...what "God" is the one in the Pledge of Allegiance? Is it Jesus Christ? Allah? Who?     </font>[/QUOTE]The reference of course to a vague deity, left up to the conscience of the individual. The a Muslim it is Allah, to a satanist, it is Satan, to a Jew it is Jehovah, to a Buddhist, Buddha, and to a Christian Jesus Christ.

    Thoughts?
     
    #69 NaasPreacher (C4K), Sep 19, 2005
  10. fromtheright

    fromtheright <img src =/2844.JPG>

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    I'm not sure why every keeps talking about compulsion--there is NO compulsion involved.
     
    #70 fromtheright, Sep 19, 2005
  11. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    You're right, ftr, there's no compulsion involved in the pledge. There's also no religious recognition in the pledge. The phrase "under God" is strictly patriotic. Hence, it passes constitutional muster, and can stay.
     
    #71 Johnv, Sep 19, 2005
  12. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    Exactly! So what's the point?
     
    #72 I Am Blessed 24, Sep 19, 2005
  13. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    I agreement with that last two posts [​IMG] .
     
    #73 NaasPreacher (C4K), Sep 19, 2005
  14. OCC

    OCC Guest

    ftr, no compulsion...YET. However, when people fight FOR using a Pledge of Allegiance instead of just leaving it to individuals' choice...it is a step toward compulsion given the "right" people in power to enforce it.

    C4K, yes I believe it is vague as well. That was kind of why I asked the question. Does it honour God to have a Pledge of Allegiance with a vague God in it so everyone can refer to their own "god"?
     
    #74 OCC, Sep 19, 2005
  15. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    That's been part of my questioning all along KJ.
     
    #75 NaasPreacher (C4K), Sep 19, 2005
  16. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    My point is that if we claim that the phrase "under God" is a religious phrase, then we must by all Baptist traditiion of constitutional constructionism, not to mention the distinctive of separation of church and state, call for its removal.

    If, however, we recognize it for what it is, which is a phrase of patriotism, and not of religion, then we need not do anything of the sort.
     
    #76 Johnv, Sep 19, 2005
  17. OCC

    OCC Guest

    I realize that C4K. My question was more directed at others but I didn't clarify that. I was just giving my thoughts.
     
    #77 OCC, Sep 19, 2005
  18. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    My point is that if we claim that the phrase "under God" is a religious phrase, then we must by all Baptist traditiion of constitutional constructionism, not to mention the distinctive of separation of church and state, call for its removal.

    If, however, we recognize it for what it is, which is a phrase of patriotism, and not of religion, then we need not do anything of the sort.     </font>[/QUOTE]Perfect explanation Johnv.
     
    #78 NaasPreacher (C4K), Sep 19, 2005
  19. buckster75

    buckster75 Member

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    John did you read what Ike said. it can only be religious.
     
    #79 buckster75, Sep 19, 2005
  20. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Well, Ike was wrong then. Since Ike wasn't a legal expert, then it's of no issue here. If the appearance of "under God" is indeed only religious, then it must go.

    It is not, and isn't even "primarily" religious, so it can stay.
     
    #80 Johnv, Sep 19, 2005
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