"Under God" and "In God We Trust"

[fromtheright]

Johnv,

I may very well be missing it but where in the Constitution is that given? There is the religious test clause just after the requirement that officers be bound by oath or affirmation.

 

[OCC]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
I am against gambling. We fought a horse race track in Indianapolis only to have it located in another county. The state by entering into the lottery had conspired to defraud the weak-minded.

In a capitalist society, you are against gambling???

Anyway...I just have to ask...what "God" is the one in the Pledge of Allegiance? Is it Jesus Christ? Allah? Who?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I can't see the logic of a secular school system compelling secular staff and students to acknowledge a God they don't believe in.

You think the state mandating the saying of "under God" everyday is going to draw men to Christ? Isn't that our job?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

fromtheright:

Starting with George Washington, all U.S. Presidents except for Franklin Pierce, when sworn into office, have always placed a hand on a bible and sworn "under God." This personal religious endorsement stems from tradition only, appearing nowhere in U.S. regulations.

http://www.undergodprocon.org/pop/curiosities.htm

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I can't see the logic of a secular school system compelling secular staff and students to acknowledge a God they don't believe in.

You don't think ALL the students and teachers in secular schools are nonbelievers do you?

Why should a Christian bow to the wishes of the lost?

 

[buckster75]

"but to compel those who do not honour God with their lives to "honour" Him with their lips surely is not wise."

I thought there was already a law allowing those who did not want to say it to not to.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by fromtheright:
I may very well be missing it but where in the Constitution is that given? There is the religious test clause just after the requirement that officers be bound by oath or affirmation.

The constitution's presidential oath allows a person to "affirm" an office instead of "swearing" an oath. This was inserted to acommodate Quakers, who had a custom of not believing in the swearing under oath.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I can't see the logic of a secular school system compelling secular staff and students to acknowledge a God they don't believe in.

You don't think ALL the students and teachers in secular schools are nonbelievers do you?

Why should a Christian bow to the wishes of the lost? </font>[/QUOTE]Christians are free to say whatever they want during the Pledge.

Of course not EVERY staff member and student is lost. We have been talking in general terms all along.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by King James:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by church mouse guy:
I am against gambling. We fought a horse race track in Indianapolis only to have it located in another county. The state by entering into the lottery had conspired to defraud the weak-minded.

In a capitalist society, you are against gambling???

Anyway...I just have to ask...what "God" is the one in the Pledge of Allegiance? Is it Jesus Christ? Allah? Who? </font>[/QUOTE]The reference of course to a vague deity, left up to the conscience of the individual. The a Muslim it is Allah, to a satanist, it is Satan, to a Jew it is Jehovah, to a Buddhist, Buddha, and to a Christian Jesus Christ.

Thoughts?

 

[fromtheright]

I'm not sure why every keeps talking about compulsion--there is NO compulsion involved.

 

[Johnv]

You're right, ftr, there's no compulsion involved in the pledge. There's also no religious recognition in the pledge. The phrase "under God" is strictly patriotic. Hence, it passes constitutional muster, and can stay.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Exactly! So what's the point?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I agreement with that last two posts

.

 

[OCC]

ftr, no compulsion...YET. However, when people fight FOR using a Pledge of Allegiance instead of just leaving it to individuals' choice...it is a step toward compulsion given the "right" people in power to enforce it.

C4K, yes I believe it is vague as well. That was kind of why I asked the question. Does it honour God to have a Pledge of Allegiance with a vague God in it so everyone can refer to their own "god"?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

That's been part of my questioning all along KJ.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
Exactly! So what's the point?

My point is that if we claim that the phrase "under God" is a religious phrase, then we must by all Baptist traditiion of constitutional constructionism, not to mention the distinctive of separation of church and state, call for its removal.

If, however, we recognize it for what it is, which is a phrase of patriotism, and not of religion, then we need not do anything of the sort.

 

[OCC]

Originally posted by C4K:
That's been part of my questioning all along KJ.

I realize that C4K. My question was more directed at others but I didn't clarify that. I was just giving my thoughts.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
Exactly! So what's the point?

My point is that if we claim that the phrase "under God" is a religious phrase, then we must by all Baptist traditiion of constitutional constructionism, not to mention the distinctive of separation of church and state, call for its removal.

If, however, we recognize it for what it is, which is a phrase of patriotism, and not of religion, then we need not do anything of the sort. </font>[/QUOTE]Perfect explanation Johnv.

 

[buckster75]

John did you read what Ike said. it can only be religious.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by buckster75:
John did you read what Ike said. it can only be religious.

Well, Ike was wrong then. Since Ike wasn't a legal expert, then it's of no issue here. If the appearance of "under God" is indeed only religious, then it must go.

It is not, and isn't even "primarily" religious, so it can stay.