Under Grace or Under Law?...Round 3

[BobRyan]

And unless one is the biggest egotist I've ever seen, one cannot say that they have loved the Lord with all the heart, all the mind, all the soul, and all the strength, and their neighbour as theirself, since that would be the sinless perfection you advocate, regardless of how you chose to word it. "And if we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us." (I Jn. 1:8)

So which is it?

Ed

Ed - this is an argument of the form "we are STILL enslaved to sin no matter WHAT the Bible says to the contrary - the saints DO NOT obey God neither indeed CAN THEY just as Romans 8 says of the unregenerate wicked".

Romans 6 and Eph 2:1-6 say that one of the benefits of the Gospel is FREEDOM from the VERY slavery to sin you say we are all condemned to --

1Cor 10 says "NO temptation has overtaken but such as common to man and GOD IS FAITHFUL who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU ARE ABLE but will WITH the temptation PROVIDE THE WAY of escape".

You seem to be saing "Well maybe - but that won't work either you are sitll a slave to breaking God's Word - breaking His commands"

Are you really going down that road?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

what does that have to do with anything? Jesus came to magnify the Law and make it honorable... all He was doing there is expanding upon what was already there. He was telling people its not ok to commit adultery in your heart or to be so angry you wanted to murder someone but just not outwardly carry it out.

Excellent point Claudia!!

Jesus's statement PRE-CROSS was in PERFECT Harmony with HIS WORD --= the LAW of God.

He magnified and UPHELD it in the form Paul references in Romans 3 "Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith?? God FORBID! On the contrary we ESTABLISH the Law of God!"

 

[D28guy]

Diggin,

I said...

And I know what the Lord *doth* require of me...

"Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fullfill the lust of the flesh"

And...

"Walk in the newness of the Spirit, and not the oldness of the letter", because "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life"

And you responded...

So, those who were committing abominable acts just before death were not walking in the Spirit."

Not right then.

They were the servant to sin.

No, they were a child of God behaving stupidly. Since they were born again they had fruit in their life. They had the fruit of the Spirit evident. But they made a mistake and sinned, just like you do and I do and every other child of God who has ever lived has done. He just happened to die while blowing it.

He was still a child of God and still went to heaven. That sin was placed upon Christ 2000 years ago and the death penatly was "paid in full".

"They broke the commandments..."

They broke one of them right then.

"...and did not truly know Christ."

Absurd.

Do you believe that every time you worry it proves you do not truly know Christ? No? Then why the double standard? Guess who were experts at employing "the double standard" in the scriptures?

I think you can figure that one out.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Brother Bob,

You said...

"D28, Ed, DHK and others.

Why is adultery, stealing, killing, coveting, worshipping idols etc, sin?

Because God has identified them as such.

"Why do you say the church need to punish the adulterer for sin."

I didnt say necesarilly "punish". You make it sound like we should tie them to a post and give them 50 lashes. It could be that God has already taken him to the woodshed. The pastor needs to counsel with him and try and lovingly help him. Find out what his mindset is now. Is he contrite and wanting to change? Has he taken it to God? etc etc. Many times, if he has a position of some sort its appropriate for him to take a break from it. etc etc etc.

"How do you know it is sin?"

God says so.

Good talking with you again,

Mike

 

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 5 does given an example of such church "punishment" and 2Cor 7 goes on to comment on the good results of that fact.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Diggin,

I said...



And you responded...



Not right then.



No, they were a child of God behaving stupidly. Since they were born again they had fruit in their life. They had the fruit of the Spirit evident. But they made a mistake and sinned, just like you do and I do and every other child of God who has ever lived has done. He just happened to die while blowing it.

He was still a child of God and still went to heaven. That sin was placed upon Christ 2000 years ago and the death penatly was "paid in full".



They broke one of them right then.



Absurd.

Do you believe that every time you worry it proves you do not truly know Christ? No? Then why the double standard? Guess who were experts at employing "the double standard" in the scriptures?

I think you can figure that one out.

God bless,

Mike

The Bible says one who says he knows Christ (claims to be saved) and keepeth not the commandments (if one commandment is broken, the commandments are not kept) that one a liar and the truth is not in him (he does not really know Christ).

Sorry you disagree with the Word of God, D28

And who ever said I worry?

 

[D28guy]

Diggin,

"The Bible says one who says he knows Christ (claims to be saved) and keepeth not the commandments (if one commandment is broken, the commandments are not kept) that one a liar and the truth is not in him (he does not really know Christ)."

Well, then you have just condemned yourself, since according to how you view the commandments you dont keep the commandments perfectly as God expects. And neither does any other christian who has ever lived.

Heaven with none of us there. Doesnt seem quite right, does it?

The truth is that I will be in heaven when I die, in spite of my failings, because I HAVE kept the law perfectly. I have never broken it in any way. My obedience has been perfect and constant.

How can I say that?

Because...

"He who knew no sin, became sin, so that we might become the rightiousness of God in Him"

God sees us as sinless because when He looks at us (positionally) He sees sinless perfection in us, because He is seeing Christs sinlessness...which has been imputed to us.

Its an exceedingly beautiful and wonderful thing, and it frees us to spend the rest of our lives growing up in the grace of God...putting off the old man, while putting on the new man...as we learn to renew our minds and live in a manner that is pleasing to God and good for us.

And we do this from the perspective of complete security, rather than the fear based uncertainty of life under the curse of the Law...the very curse that God has removed from us.

(((PRAISE GOD!))) for the wonderful provision He has made for us! \o/ :godisgood:

Mike

 

[Diggin in da Word]

So you totally dismiss Christ when He says 'If you love me keep my commandments'. YOu dismiss Paul's command to be grounded and settled in the faith.

If you waver at all, you cannot be grounded and settled.

You dismiss John who said if any man say he knows Him, and keepeth not His commandments, he is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Jesus said He is the truth. If one does not have the truth of God in him, that one cannot have Jesus, for He is the Truth.

The Word of God says there are seven abominations that God hates, yet you believe if you commit any or all of those abominations you will be accepted.

Yet God says 'If thou doest good, thou wilt be accepted...' He will not accept you if you are serving the devil by committing an abominable act prior to your death.

You can continue to deceive yourself into thinking it will be ok if I commit just one sin, it's covered. Yet God's Word says nothing defiling will enter that city.

The message you are advocating is contrary to that which is written in the Word of God.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

If the Bible says one that does not keep the commandments is a liar and has not the truth in him, how can anyone claim different?

How can they have the Spirit of Christ when the Word of God says the truth is not in them?

 

[D28guy]

Diggin,

"So you totally dismiss Christ when He says 'If you love me keep my commandments'."

I do keep His commandments in the sense that I respect them and view the morality found in them to be good and admirable. And as I grow in grace and walk in the Spirit I will be cultivation attitudes and behaviors that are consistant with the morality found there.

But I have been freed from the curse of the Law. I will not be judged by it and my rightstanding with God is 100% independant of my behavior or sins.

"YOu dismiss Paul's command to be grounded and settled in the faith.

Nonsense. Being truly grounded and settled in the faith can only occur when we understand our rightstanding with God as being because of His grace, and also undestanding our freedom from the curse of the Law. And its ironic you would mention Paul, since he is the primary instrument God used to give us the great and liberating New Covenant truths such as imputed rightiousness and freedom from the curse of the Law.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[BobRyan]

If the Bible says one that does not keep the commandments is a liar and has not the truth in him, how can anyone claim different?

How can they have the Spirit of Christ when the Word of God says the truth is not in them?

hmmm good point - something to think about.

Christ said in Matt 7 that the "good tree produces good fruit --" and then claims "by their fruits you shall know them".

Others say "you are a good tree in god's eyes no matter what the fruit".

those are two entirely different schools of thought.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK said
1.Christ died for all our sins on the cross.

2.If we truly believe that, then to believe that any one sin (unconfessed or not) would keep one out of heaven, is to take away from the sufficiency of the blood of Christ

3.Salvation is all of God; it is all of grace.

4.There is nothing that we can do; not even confess an unconfessed sin. That is a work of man, and would turn grace into works destroying what Christ did on the cross.

These are all true within an Arminian free will context because the "works that we do" are not 'what earns us heaven' - salvation is a free gift and the good works - the sanctification the changed life is a result of the Gospel promises being CHOSEN and implemented in daily perseverance.

But in some kinds of Calvinism the very act of Persevering is considered the "works of man" and they would argue it should not matter whether we persevere or not in our walk with Christ.

As 1john 2 points out - that kind of thinking is dead wrong.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[EdSutton]

I'm thinking about rewording a familiar chorus of a well-known hymn, but am still not sure about it. I could use some help, here maybe. Let me run it by you.

"Jesus paid His part.
I'll do my part, though.
Sin had caused His broken heart,
but we've both got it fixed, I know."

I dunno'.
Somehow that still doesn't seem to have the same ring to it, as the more familiar words.

Ed

 

[Claudia_T]

I'm thinking about rewording a familiar chorus of a well-known hymn, but am still not sure about it. I could use some help, here maybe. Let me run it by you.

"Jesus paid His part.
I'll do my part, though.
Sin had caused His broken heart,
but we've both got it fixed, I know."

I dunno'.
Somehow that still doesn't seem to have the same ring to it, as the more familiar words.

Ed

For the familiar hymn let's try this:


"Jesus paid it all,
all to Him I owe,
This does not mean that I sin,
'cause that causes Him to throw (up)"


Revelation 3:
15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.


(You should think a little bit about what "all to Him I owe" actually means)

 

[Diggin in da Word]

The more I read what they write, the more I have to wonder if they think that Jesus said 'Remember the commandments (see post 230), instead of 'Keep the commandments (see the Word of God).

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

 

[Brother Bob]

..................

 

[DHK]

The Bible says one who says he knows Christ (claims to be saved) and keepeth not the commandments (if one commandment is broken, the commandments are not kept) that one a liar and the truth is not in him (he does not really know Christ).

Sorry you disagree with the Word of God, D28

And who ever said I worry?

So you admit you never sin?

Then Christ didn't die for you??

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
--We are all unjust (sinners). He is the only one who is just (without sin), and was therefor qualified to die for our sins. But if you have no sin, you have no need for a Saviour--no need for Christ. Is that so?

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Paul said he had to beat his body and keep it under subjection daily. I also have to keep my body under subjection.

Thoughts that are not of Christ, one is to cast down as soon as satan plants them into one's head. One can only do this by first submitting to Christ. One cannot resist the devil without being first submitted to Christ.

If one has problem with resisting the devil, giving into the flesh and ultimately sinning, apparently one has not truly submitted one's self to Christ fully.

James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Paul wrote no man can serve two masters. When one is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed, that man has listened to the voice of a master other than Jesus.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If no man can serve two masters, and one who gives in to sin and temptation is serving a master other than the Lord Jesus Christ, no more needs to be said about whose servant that man is..

Why is it so hard for people to understand that just because they said a prayer doesn't mean they truly are saved? If the branch abideth not (is not attached to; does not live in, nor continues in Christ), that branch is good for nothing but to be cast into the fire.

Christ is looking for a faithful people. A people who will eschew evil and cleave to that which is good as Job did. Christ is looking for a people who are set apart and not appearing to be the same as the world.

God said, 'Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.'

Yet today's crowd wants to say, 'I just can't do it. It's too hard. No man can keep the commandments.'

Over and over we are told to keep the commandments, to walk in the Spirit, to remain grounded and settled, to stand fast, hold fast, finish the race. Those admonitions are there for a reason, my friend. God did not tell us to do all these things just to hear us complain that we can't.

Submit yourselves to God, and I guarantee you you can do those things.

 

[BobRyan]

No longer under the condemnation of God's Word - God's Law - but STILL under obligation to obey rather than rebell against our Creator and Savior Jesus Christ.

Some today attempt to claim that God's Word -- God's Commandments have been abolished (but in a nice way) --

Notice how the Apostle John does not go for such Bible-breaking methods…

I Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rev 22:14
14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

BobRyan,

Don't you realize that we have a right to rewrite the Word of God and to change it to ''He that keepeth not His commandments loves God.?

At least that is what some would have us believe.