Understanding God’s election

[DaveXR650]

I understand that Gods' enlightening or drawing or conviction is essential as we see in scripture that God will use various means to accomplish this. Where Calvinism gets it wrong is when they say that man does not have the free will too respond as he chooses.
While God does desire that all would come to Him in faith He will not force anyone to do so.

I agree that man may move toward God in steps. Life shows us that people have come to trust in God over time and I do see Gods' grace at work in presenting more information to the seeking person even if they do not realize that they are seeking Him.

We did a coffee shop outreach a few years back. We had a number of young people come in that had many questions and over time you could see the questions change as they got to know Him better. Not saved yet but moving toward Him. Some but not all. All we can do is plant the seed.

This sounds exactly the way several Calvinistic churches I know of would do this. I don't think there is any difference at the point of people coming to Christ. I would disagree in that I believe that our own free will is the only reason that we don't respond without God's supernatural working. But that is a parsing of words. There should be no practical difference. And from what you describe there isn't.

 

[Silverhair]

Where this gets difficult is trying to differentiate between God holding a man responsible for what the judicial truth is. And that is that men should be able to respond to God's gracious offer of salvation and can be held fully responsible if he doesn't. Man is truly unable to do so because he is unwilling to do so and by his own free will tends to choose to reject Christ. I think that God indeed gives men grace in the form of circumstances, troubles, dangers, miracles and direct conviction and enlightening of understanding and calling. I think it is indeed essential that this happens or else men won't be saved. Where I think some Calvinists make a mistake is to so camp on a rigid predestination which leads them to also emphasize the one's who do not have a sufficient outpouring of grace that they are saved.

When it comes to hearing the gospel for instance. Does that in itself mean that there is sufficient light in the gospel message itself or is more work of the Holy Spirit required. I was surprised to read that Jonathan Edwards remarked that occasionally he felt he knew of a person here or there where it seemed that the word in itself seemed to be sufficient. Yet he mostly taught that a "divine and supernatural light" must be imparted to the soul before one is saved. And as I have said before, once someone has heard the gospel, none of us have any problem praying for them. Are we not asking for further work of the Holy Spirit and/or God's providential hand on their lives to bring them about? Well, what about their free will? If the person is someone you care about hang their free will, just save them please!

Look at what you say "that men should be able to respond to God's gracious offer of salvation and can be held fully responsible if he doesn't". Man is either able or he is not. God either allows man that ability or He does not.

Yes man does tend to reject God but there is the rub Dave. He chooses to reject God which logically means he could choose to trust in Him. Man is not monolithic in their thinking are they. We all have the ability to follow our own path. Some will respond to information one way some another. That is reality and yet you can not or rather will not accept that same truth when it comes to the most important choice they can make. Strangely you say God uses various means to draw man to Himself then balk at the idea that man can actually respond in a positive way to those various means. So you have to ask why would God bother with them if He knew man could not respond in a positive way. What would be the point if He had to make them do it or actually do it for them. Calvinism is quite illogical when you actually follow it through to the logical end.

Yes when it comes to the gospel what do we see. The gospel message was preached to Jews and Gentiles by Paul and to what result? Some believed and some did not. Did God make some believe and others to reject it. According to Calvinism God had to do both as He has to save some and then give them faith so by not saving the others or giving them faith He choose what each would do, So God is responsible for the saved and the lost. Even though He desires all to be saved or did the Holy Spirit get that wrong or worse did God lie and He really does not want all to come to Him.

I know you want to avoid the reality that man has a free will but the more you look at it the more it jumps out at you. As for me praying for the lost, why would I not want God to convict people of their sin and show them the truth about Him. I want all mankind to turn to God in faith as the reality of hell is just to much to contemplate so why would I want anyone to spend eternity there. But the reality is that even with all the conviction and other means it still comes down to the person making the choice whether to believe or not. The Holy Spirit can convict and draw but can not make one really believe. A faith that is not your own is at best false.

 

[Silverhair]

This sounds exactly the way several Calvinistic churches I know of would do this. I don't think there is any difference at the point of people coming to Christ. I would disagree in that I believe that our own free will is the only reason that we don't respond without God's supernatural working. But that is a parsing of words. There should be no practical difference. And from what you describe there isn't.

So what you are saying is that some Calvinist churches you know of preach biblical salvation.That's good the hear.

But that is the difference, man is forced or free. Under Calvinism salvation is forced on the individual and your faith has to be given to the person so you have to question is it real. The bible on the other hand say man has to make real choices, believe or reject. There are only two options and we are given the ability and responsibility to make that choice.

From what I see in scripture salvation is for those that freely trust in Him and Calvinists just can not accept the fact that God would trust them to make that choice.

 

[DaveXR650]

Look at what you say "that men should be able to respond to God's gracious offer of salvation and can be held fully responsible if he doesn't". Man is either able or he is not. God either allows man that ability or He does not.

I know we always come to an impasse on this and won't get anywhere this time either. But even if you are a traditional Baptist and you have in your mind you, yourself totally in charge of your own free will and thus you choose to come to Christ at some point. Do you not believe that you will then be born again and given a new nature and a new "free will"? I do not see why you would not object to that kind of control by God over your free will from that point on - yet you adamantly reject God doing anything decisive to help you before you sovereignly make your own wise decision to come on board.

 

[Brightfame52]

And while you can see that man has the ability to choose to reject the offer you just can not accept the reality that man can also accept the offer. I do find this odd as God seems to think man can do just that and that is why He holds them responsible for rejecting it. Logically if man is unable to trust in God then why all the injunctions to do just that? Did the Holy Spirit get it wrong? While man can be too selfish, sensual, and mean he is also rational and logical. He has the ability to evaluate information and make choices when presented with the reality of hell or heaven. To deny this is to deny man the capacity to think.



I understand that Gods' enlightening or drawing or conviction is essential as we see in scripture that God will use various means to accomplish this. Where Calvinism gets it wrong is when they say that man does not have the free will too respond as he chooses.
While God does desire that all would come to Him in faith He will not force anyone to do so.

I agree that man may move toward God in steps. Life shows us that people have come to trust in God over time and I do see Gods' grace at work in presenting more information to the seeking person even if they do not realize that they are seeking Him.

We did a coffee shop outreach a few years back. We had a number of young people come in that had many questions and over time you could see the questions change as they got to know Him better. Not saved yet but moving toward Him. Some but not all. All we can do is plant the seed.

Before regeneration man is dead to God, dead in sin,and hasno spiritual ability. So man cannot do anything spiritually until he is given the gift of grace of regeneration,being made alive Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Thats the gift of grace Eph 3 7

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

 

[Van]

Both the Calvinists and Arminians agree that fallen humanity suffers from total spiritual inability, and only by God's enabling grace, Irresistible for the Calvinists or Prevenient Grace for the Arminians, is the lost person able to seek God and trust in Christ. Both of these doctrines are absolutely false. If a lost person's heart has been hardened, then they are unable to even understand the gospel, but if their heart has not yet been hardened, then they have the innate but limited ability to understand some spiritual things, spiritual milk, as indicated by 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

 

[Silverhair]

I know we always come to an impasse on this and won't get anywhere this time either. But even if you are a traditional Baptist and you have in your mind you, yourself totally in charge of your own free will and thus you choose to come to Christ at some point. Do you not believe that you will then be born again and given a new nature and a new "free will"? I do not see why you would not object to that kind of control by God over your free will from that point on - yet you adamantly reject God doing anything decisive to help you before you sovereignly make your own wise decision to come on board.

Dave you will have to expand on this "new free will" idea you have.

God does many things to draw people to Himself as I have taken pains to point out many times on this board. Look at scripture and the many ways that God has shown people who He is and who we are.

The bible is clear that while God will draw people to Himself the person has to choose whether to actually trust in Him.
"For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD. "But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word. Isaiah 66:2

GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE. 1 Peter 5:5

God has done many things and used various means to draw people to Himself and yet you continue to insist that man is to prideful to humble themselves but rather that God must make them trust in Him through some decisive action.

Yes I would say that anyone that will humble themselves and come to God in faith was wise enough to trust in the information that God has provided.

 

[Silverhair]

Before regeneration man is dead to God, dead in sin,and hasno spiritual ability. So man cannot do anything spiritually until he is given the gift of grace of regeneration,being made alive Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Thats the gift of grace Eph 3 7

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Isa 55:5 "Behold, you will call a nation you do not know, And a nation which knows you not will run to you, Because of the LORD your God, even the Holy One of Israel; For He has glorified you."
Isa 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

This is to be regarded as addressed not to the Jewish exiles only or uniquely, but to all in view of the coming and work of the Messiah. That work would be so full and ample that an invitation could be extended to all to seek after God, and to return to him.

I know that you want a limited application of the grace of God to only your so called "elect" but God has shown that the invitation is for all and all can respond. That is why we are judged for our rejection.

But I am sure you will continue to hold to your deterministic view.

 

[DaveXR650]

God does many things to draw people to Himself as I have taken pains to point out many times on this board. Look at scripture and the many ways that God has shown people who He is and who we are.

Yes. What I am saying is that these things like you mention that God does to draw people to himself, what are those things at work on. I say they are at work on the person's will. If the person, who at first does not will to come to Christ for salvation, changes his mind because "God does many things to draw people to himself as I have taken pains to point our many times on this board", then changes his mind and by his own free will now decides to come to Christ - I am only saying that his will was changed by God's grace. A work was done on his heart by the Holy Spirit, thus causing him to change his mind and by his own free will he now comes to Christ. This is different than the impression you are giving because it seems like you are always insisting that there must be some type of autonomous deciding on the part of the person, that is independent of any influence that you describe above, or else it was not a true free will decision. I say as long as you are doing what you most want it is indeed the most free our choices as a human can be. And if God has engineered that change in our will we should be thankful and not worry that God did not choose to leave us on the path were were previously on.

 

[Brightfame52]

Isa 55:5 "Behold, you will call a nation you do not know, And a nation which knows you not will run to you, Because of the LORD your God, even the Holy One of Israel; For He has glorified you."
Isa 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

This is to be regarded as addressed not to the Jewish exiles only or uniquely, but to all in view of the coming and work of the Messiah. That work would be so full and ample that an invitation could be extended to all to seek after God, and to return to him.

I know that you want a limited application of the grace of God to only your so called "elect" but God has shown that the invitation is for all and all can respond. That is why we are judged for our rejection.

But I am sure you will continue to hold to your deterministic view.

Before regeneration man is dead, dead in sin Has no spiritual life in them. Dead men dont seek God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Only the regenerated seeks the True God

 

[Silverhair]

Yes. What I am saying is that these things like you mention that God does to draw people to himself, what are those things at work on. I say they are at work on the person's will. If the person, who at first does not will to come to Christ for salvation, changes his mind because "God does many things to draw people to himself as I have taken pains to point our many times on this board", then changes his mind and by his own free will now decides to come to Christ - I am only saying that his will was changed by God's grace. A work was done on his heart by the Holy Spirit, thus causing him to change his mind and by his own free will he now comes to Christ. This is different than the impression you are giving because it seems like you are always insisting that there must be some type of autonomous deciding on the part of the person, that is independent of any influence that you describe above, or else it was not a true free will decision. I say as long as you are doing what you most want it is indeed the most free our choices as a human can be. And if God has engineered that change in our will we should be thankful and not worry that God did not choose to leave us on the path were were previously on.

How many times must I say that God has provided various means to draw people to Himself? Those various means do not force the person choose Christ. If as you say "A work was done on his heart by the Holy Spirit, thus causing him to change his mind" and God desires all to come to Him and the Holy Spirit convicts the whole world of their sin then why do we have people that reject God? Why is God not causing all people to change their minds? Do you not see the flaw in your thinking.

How many people do we see that are convicted of their sin and yet do not quite their sin or turn to God. The view you present shows a God that can not accomplish what He desires or one that actually does not really desire what He has claimed He does. Which is it?

God has shown us the path but we have to choose to walk it. He does not force us to follow Him.

 

[Dougcho]

When you say God has to give them the necessary faith to believe then you make God responsible for them not believing. Without Him giving them that faith it would be impossible for them to believe, correct.

Yes, please read Romans 9 again ...
and see that ... it is God's perogative
to bless who He wants to bless
and curse who He wants to curse ...
for all His reasons given in the OP.

 

[DaveXR650]

. If as you say "A work was done on his heart by the Holy Spirit, thus causing him to change his mind" and God desires all to come to Him and the Holy Spirit convicts the whole world of their sin then why do we have people that reject God? Why is God not causing all people to change their minds? Do you not see the flaw in your thinking.

I believe that this grace is indeed resistible. And I think the older Calvinists understood this and I'll give you 2 reasons why. One, they preferred the term "effectual" to irresistible because they did believe, as I do, that the scenario you give also has God's grace being essential or else the person would not have come to Christ. Of those who are saved, the grace was effectual, and essential, so their salvation is all of God. Of those who reject even all the means and conviction of the Holy Spirit you could indeed say it was resisted by them.

The other reason is that the older Calvinist theologians, even high-Calvinists like Owen, had as a major theme of their preaching the heinousness of rejecting God's invitation to pardon and salvation. This indicates to me they did not have a view of grace as being impossible to be resisted. Now they did believe that those who resisted would indeed turn out to be the non-elect - but they were teaching that the invitation was real and anyone who came to Christ would be saved. Can that be resolved logically? Probably not. But the idea that people do reject God does not mean that a work of God is not essential for everyone who does get saved.

The view you present shows a God that can not accomplish what He desires or one that actually does not really desire what He has claimed He does. Which is it?

That charge is true if you take Calvinism to the level of extreme determinism which I agree some do. I take the position that this does not represent all of Calvinism.

God has shown us the path but we have to choose to walk it. He does not force us to follow Him.

And lastly, this shows your inconsistency, in that the things you admitted to above as God's work goes further than "has shown us the path". Showing us the path won't save anyone, just like giving us the law didn't save anyone. You give yourself away and show that you are as extreme of a free willer as any hyper-Calvinist is extreme the other way. That statement is not what you have been arguing all along and that statement is what I worry about mostly from Flowers and his "Provisionism".

 

[DaveXR650]

Both the Calvinists and Arminians agree that fallen humanity suffers from total spiritual inability, and only by God's enabling grace, Irresistible for the Calvinists or Prevenient Grace for the Arminians, is the lost person able to seek God and trust in Christ. Both of these doctrines are absolutely false. If a lost person's heart has been hardened, then they are unable to even understand the gospel, but if their heart has not yet been hardened, then they have the innate but limited ability to understand some spiritual things, spiritual milk, as indicated by 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

@Van. I heard a Lutheran say that and it does make sense. It explains why people are more apt to believe at young ages and when they first start hearing the gospel. And it matches the other stories in scripture about people being hardened by God after persisting in sin and hardening themselves. It's not that familiar to me but I certainly don't discount it either.

 

[kyredneck]

Why is God not causing all people to change their minds?

Are the Lost Allowed to Seek God?

Is there unrighteousness with God?

Why doth he still find fault?

 

[Silverhair]

Are the Lost Allowed to Seek God?

Is there unrighteousness with God?

Why doth he still find fault?

No God is not unrighteous and that is why He has given man the ability to make real free will choices.

The only ones that is see continuing to find fault with God are those that hold to the TULIP/DoG. They do not actually believe what the bible tells us about God and the various means He uses to draw people to Him.

I still have to ask what is the point that you are trying to make KY?

 

[Dougcho]

Only the regenerated seeks the True God

And how do they get to be regenerated?
Do they ask God for this, or does God just do it?

I see Scripture saying that God decides
WHO He will choose and call.
It's His perogative!
But, it's not popular ... man likes to be in charge.

 

[kyredneck]

I still have to ask what is the point that you are trying to make KY?

The natural response to Sovereign Grace:

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Ro 9

...basically, the roots of all the complaints against it, which includes you, Silv.

 

[kyredneck]

And how do they get to be regenerated?

.....It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow,....thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3:7,8 YLT

OSAS Trap | Page 8 | Baptist Christian Forums

 

[Silverhair]

The natural response to Sovereign Grace:

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Ro 9

...basically, the roots of all the complaints against it, which includes you, Silv.

What complaint have I made against the sovereignty of God?

You are blowing smoke again KY.

You just can not stand the idea that not everyone will follow your questionable theology.