Understanding God’s election

[Dave G]

As I stated, you teach conditional works salvation, based on something man must do prior to salvation.

Unknowingly, I would agree.
However, I seriously doubt that he sees it that way.
What's more, I did it as a younger believer as well...

But that was before I began to study the Scriptures in depth some 20 years ago.

In the end, I maintain that if anyone unrepentantly ( and over the course of their lifetime as a professing believer ) and continuously steps up and tries to teach entire groups that salvation is based on anything other than God's completely unmerited grace and mercy, then the end result is that they are telling others that He bases His decision on something that the saved person either has, or does.

In other words, that person is ( unknowingly or not ) teaching works, not grace.

 

[Dave G]

Yet we know from the Scriptures that eternal life, and the gift of salvation that goes with it, is of grace and not works, and that outside of God giving something to someone, no man has anything:

" John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven." ( John 3:27 )
" For who maketh thee to differ [from another?] and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive [it], why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received [it?] ( 1 Corinthians 4:7 )

What do any of us have, that we did not receive from the Lord?

With that in mind, any "condition" that has to be met by the saved person is in reality either an evidence of God's grace upon them, or something that He works and causes to be present in one of His elect.
Even our belief on His Son is a result of His work, not our "choice" to believe.
Otherwise He would not have given us this truth:

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 ). <--- Paul writing to the church at Philippi.

Two things are given by God to the believer in the above:

1) To believe on Christ
2) To suffer for His sake.

As the passive recipients of His grace, no man or woman can boast in anything other than the Lord's mercy upon them.
If any of us "glory" ( take personal pride ) in anything, let us "glory" in the Lord and Him alone.

 

[DaveXR650]

In the end, I maintain that if anyone unrepentantly ( and over the course of their lifetime as a professing believer ) and continuously teaches that salvation is based on anything other than God's completely unmerited grace and mercy, then the end result is that they are telling others that He bases His decision on something that the saved person either has, or does.

I don't think anyone is arguing that salvation is based on anything other than God's grace and of course the work of Christ. Faith is difficult to define but as Edwards put it it "expresses the whole act of acceptance, or closing of the soul or heart with Christ". As such, it simply cannot be any part of the merit or base of our salvation because it is the actual receiving of our salvation by us. Therefore; although it supplies no merit it indeed is something that must be done and done by us, on our part.

If you continue reading on in Philippians in chapter 3 you see the striving on Paul's part and at the same time the fact that he views himself as being "apprehended" by Christ. Both are taught. And in verse 9 it is said that: Not having mine own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. And verse 10 further explains the suffering as a "fellowship of suffering" which shows a participation rather than a passive reception.

The way some of you guys teach this goes too far in that it demands a reduction of salvation to the point of disappearance. It simply is, and one is left with determining in his own mind that he is included because he is being told that repenting of his sins and actively closing with Christ so to speak is works. Everything is turned on it's head and everyone is confused.

 

[DaveXR650]

Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Good verse. I have to admit that after viewing your back and forth with Brightframe on another thread where he started repeating replies as he does here you can see that theology has limits at best and it can be very confusing if relied on too much. As a guardrail so to speak, a systematic theology can be useful for helping you not to get too far off track but if you allow it to box you in and it keeps you from reading a scripture and getting it's plain and obvious meaning it can be harmful.

 

[Dave G]

The way some of you guys teach this goes too far in that it demands a reduction of salvation to the point of disappearance.

The way I understand God's word as a whole appears to differ greatly from the way you currently do, and what you see as "too far" is exactly how far I see the Scriptures going.
What's more, it seems "too far" for most who, these days, profess Christ;
"Too far" for them to accept, and it discourages me to no end.

My friend, it's all in what's written...
Not in man-made or "reverse-engineered" / "systematic" theologies, theories, or "what-if's".
It's in the words themselves...His words.

That said, I'm not here to insult you Dave.
I'm here to proclaim the truth, and I've nothing to gain by disobeying the Lord's commands and "debating" to win an argument.
Others here may do that ( and even be comfortable with it ), but I never will.

It took the Lord a good bit of time to show me what He has, and I once believed very similarly to what you express at times.
That is why my best advice, if you've truly believed God's word during the preaching of it, and believed on Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, is to put much time and effort into studying it:

" Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

I was 25 years in the Lord ( 37 years old ) before I began to see election for what it was...
Another 21 years have gone by, and I'm not even remotely the same in my understanding of His word as when I started out;

But I am what I am by His grace and mercy alone, and I've much to thank Him for ( and I do, everyday ) when I finally get see Him.


May He bless you in those studies.

 

[DaveXR650]

I was 25 years in the Lord ( 37 years old ) before I began to see election for what it was...
Another 21 years have gone by, and I'm not even remotely the same in my understanding of His word as when I started out;

That's most of us, if we are honest.
I would ask, since this is a debate forum and you have taken the part of @Brightfame52 in a post he repeated several times, if you would reconcile that with the quote in post 140 from @37818 where he quoted Romans 4:5. It seems that it would be of some help when you join in, if you would say something, rather than just vaguely describe the errors of my line of scriptural interpretation. It would seem to me that that verse is a fair example of faith being set as against or not being works, yet you defend a post saying otherwise. Would it be wrong to ask you to specifically explain your reasoning?

 

[Dave G]

Would it be wrong to ask you to specifically explain your reasoning?

No, it's not wrong Dave. In fact, I fully expect you to, and I'm glad that you did.
The error that I see many making, is that they think that their faith is what saved them, when Scripture says otherwise.

Here we go:

Romans 4:5:
" But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. "

Here I clearly see the declaration by God, through the Holy Spirit to Paul, is that a believer's faith is counted for righteousness.
Please keep in mind that, to me, the "believer" is defined further along in the epistles as God's elect, chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 ).
So, I bring that definition back here when I read it again, and see that, like Abraham, God credits our ( His elect's ) faith, in and on His Son's work alone on our behalf, as righteousness.

That said, what else do I see the Scriptures saying about a believer's faith?

" But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" ( Romans 3:21-23 ).

In the above, I see that the righteousness which is of God outside of the Law is shown, being witnessed by the Law and prophets.
Even the righteousness of ( by or from ) God..by the faith of ( by or from ) Jesus Christ...to all and upon all that believe.
There is no difference between any of us, saved or unsaved. ALL have sinned and come short of the glory which is of God.

It's the faith of Jesus Christ, which is far better than my paltry "faith" that gives up when the going gets tough.

 

[Dave G]

Now, in order to keep Romans 3:21-23 from being a "proof text", I will also include other passages that tell me where my faith as a believer in Jesus Christ actually came from...in case I get a big head and hold God responsible for saving me because of MY belief ( Romans 3:17 ).
In another epistle, I'm told:

" ....knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." ( Galatians 2:16-21 ).

Now, I could run this by you line by line so you can see how I understand it, but if you follow along, you will see that we as men ( and women ) are justified by what? The faith which is of Jesus Christ.
Paul is also telling us that the life which he now lives in the flesh, is lived by the faith of...who?

Again, the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

In case you think I'm making all of this up, see also Galatians 3:22, Hebrews 11:1 ( faith, the substance and evidence ), Hebrews 12:2 ( Jesus Christ the Author and Finisher of our faith )...

Keeping in mind that I do not use newer English translations that selectively refuse to follow the Greek, and end up substituting "by faith in" in place of the correctly-rendered "by the faith of" in these passages.

 

[Dave G]

Putting it all together, my faith as a believer is not my own...
It was given to me as a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ).

Why?
So that even my faith, which is what is credited to me as God's righteousness, is the result ( not the determiner ) of God's love and mercy upon me, and His desire to save me was HIS desire.
I didn't "work" for it in any way, shape or form.

That is precisely why Paul told Titus:

" But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. " ( Titus 3:4-7 ).

Grace ------> Election -------> Faith of Christ --------->Believe ------> God credits me with righteousness.

Boasting?
In nothing other than the grace and mercy of my Saviour.

 

[DaveXR650]

The error that I see many making, is that they think that their faith is what saved them, when Scripture says otherwise.

I agree with that. Faith is describing the actual connecting of the person, and as it is done on the person's part, to Christ. Because of that it is of a different nature than any work or any other thing. It is a common error to attribute actual merit to faith itself in salvation and an impossible concept if you understand what it is. I do think it's possible that if you are serious student of the governmental theory of the atonement it becomes easier to come up with a doctrine where faith is the thing that saves you.

Romans 4:5 is just stating that faith is the thing required on our part. But it is not correct to suggest that being elect is what will cause that faith to be credited for righteousness as if equal faith by someone not elect would not be credited because the person is not elect. It's perfectly correct, and any good Calvinist would tell you, that a non-elect person will never believe in the way Romans 4:5 describes - but once again, the faith is indeed the difference. Not the meritorious cause, but the required difference.

 

[DaveXR650]

" ....knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

When you see "faith of Christ" that is indeed awkward in modern English. Here's how I look at that. The term is useful because there is a whole list of things that we as Christians must believe about Christ. (That he can save us, that he can forgive sins, that he is one with the Father, that he is Lord and so on.) And while one may not know all this when they initially come to Christ it is part of what one usually will come to believe. All this together would better be called "the faith of Christ" to encompass the whole body of a believer's doctrine. But when you come to Christ you just come to Christ, primarily as a savior and there are plenty of other passages anyway which clear say "faith in Christ".

What is most certainly does not mean is any hint that Christ believes for you. Or that this any any way does not involve an active believing on your part.

 

[DaveXR650]

Regarding faith as a gift I would say this. Christians, real Christians, are all over the place as to how this works. A Provisionist like Flowers would say that there is enough of God's power in the actual gospel message that you have the ability upon hearing the gospel, to believe with a saving faith. Arminians, Wesleyans, and low Calvinists would say that the Holy Spirit must exert influence on the person in addition to the word itself or else the person cannot believe. But the influence is of a convicting or persuasive nature. More serious Calvinists say that no, persuasion and conviction and the word, even providential things that happen in one's life, are not enough. A direct enlightening or illumination by the Holy Spirit is needed. From there, many Calvinists believe that a direct quickening or actual regeneration is needed for a person to come by faith and therefore the exercise of faith is the first and immediate and natural response of one who has been born again.

Personally, I believe that a direct enlightening or illumination by the Holy Spirit is needed in addition to the word, circumstances, conviction and so on. I do not believe that actual regeneration occurs before faith. I can see how one would say that though. In addition, I believe that saving grace can and is resisted. Obviously, Calvinists like the term effectual instead of irresistible because they also allow for resistible grace if you read the confessions.

I hope that helps Dave and I'm not saying anyone has to believe like me. I only get a little upset when people start throwing around heresy and false gospel claims rather loosely. All sides do this.

Oh yeah. I almost forgot. I don't want to leave out those who believe you are justified already if you are elect either from eternity or at least from the time Christ died.

 

[Kai]

I agree that humanity is fallen, that sin has affected our nature, and that salvation is entirely dependent on God's grace. Where I disagree is the assumption that man's sinful condition means he is incapable of responding to God's offer of salvation unless God first irresistibly regenerates him.

For example, Romans 3 describes humanity's sinful condition, but it doesn't necessarily establish the Calvinist doctrine of total inability. An Arminian would argue that God's prevenient grace enables fallen people to respond to the Gospel without making that response irresistible.

Regarding Lydia in Acts 16:14, the passage says the Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. I don't see why this must mean God selectively regenerated her or irresistibly gave her faith. It demonstrates God's gracious involvement in bringing someone to faith, something Arminians certainly affirm.

I would also be careful with John 15:16. Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples in the context of their appointment to ministry and bearing fruit. Using that passage as a blanket statement about individual election to salvation seems to overlook its immediate context.

Romans 9 deserves serious consideration, but its discussion of election also needs to be understood in the broader context of Paul's argument, particularly Romans 10, where Paul emphasizes the responsibility of people to believe and call upon the Lord.

Finally, I think there's an important distinction between God knowing who will believe and God determining who can believe. Scripture repeatedly invites people to repent, believe, and receive Christ. I don't think we should redefine those invitations as something only the elect are capable of responding to.

Salvation is completely by grace, but that doesn't necessarily mean God's grace is irresistible or that He has chosen to withhold the ability to respond from everyone else.

 

[Silverhair]

One of the biggest arguments for God's sovereignty in man's salvation is the fact that everyone is obviously not given some kind of equal chance. You simply cannot read scripture and come up with this equal opportunity scenario, even though it might make you feel better.

Here I have to differ with you Dave. Scripture is quite clear that God has given all the equal chance to know Him and be saved.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

And God hold all men equally responsible for how they respond to the information available to them.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

Does that mean that all will turn in faith to God, NO it does not but all do have that chance or God was being shell we say less than honest.

 

[Salty]

This thread will be closed no sooner than 1100 GMT 6 am, EST, 6 a, EST, 3 am EST

 

[Brightfame52]

Here I have to differ with you Dave. Scripture is quite clear that God has given all the equal chance to know Him and be saved.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

And God hold all men equally responsible for how they respond to the information available to them.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

Does that mean that all will turn in faith to God, NO it does not but all do have that chance or God was being shell we say less than honest.

Silverhair, your assertion that Scripture teaches God has given all men an "equal chance" to be saved completely reduces the finished victory of the cross to a tentative, helpless possibility. In your attempt to defend human autonomy, you have turned the execution of the Covenant of Grace into a cosmic gamble that sits waiting for a dead sinner to validate it.

Let’s lay bare the strict, textual, and legal collapse of your argument:

1. The "World" of John 3:16 is a Forensic Reality, Not a Multi-Ethnic Gamble

You quote John 3:16–17 to argue for a universal, equal opportunity for all mankind. But you are completely missing the covenantal and linguistic boundary lines of the text.

• When Jesus tells Nicodemus (a master of Israel) that God so loved the world (kosmos), He is declaring the breakdown of national, ethnic boundaries. This is the Abrahamic Covenant expansion (Gal 3:8)—the reality that God’s discriminating, eternal love encompasses His chosen sheep scattered across all nations, tribes, and tongues (Gen 17:5, Isa 49:6).
• If the "world" in John 3:16 meant every single individual of Adam's posterity without exception, and Christ was sent to actually save that world, then every single human being must infallibly be saved. If Christ died for thousands who are currently perishing under God's unmitigated wrath (John 3:36), then the cross was a legal failure. It would mean Christ’s death was insufficient to secure what it set out to accomplish.

As a disciple of the historic Sovereign Grace position of John Gill, I maintain that the cross was an actual, completed accomplishment (Phase II - Legal Phase). Christ bare the specific sins of His people in His own body on the tree, and by His stripes they were healed (1 Pet 2:24). The "world" of John 3:16 is the multi-ethnic world of the Elect, whose individual names were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world (Rev 17:8).

2. Romans 1:20 is a Ledger of Condemnation, Not an Invitation to Salvation

You attempt to use Romans 1:20 to prove that all men have an "equal chance" to know God and be saved: "being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse."

You have completely inverted the text's structural purpose.

• Paul is not discussing a universal offer of the Gospel or an opportunity for salvation in Romans 1. He is outlining the natural responsibility of man in general to acknowledge the eternal power and divine nature of the Creator through physical creation.
• What is the explicit result of this natural revelation? The text tells you: "so that men are without excuse." Natural revelation does not communicate the blood-bought righteousness of a Savior, nor does it provide a way of escape; its sole judicial function is to leave natural men entirely condemned and without a legal defense for their voluntary idolatry and suppressing of the truth in unrighteousness.

Natural men possess a rational mind capable of recognizing the historical facts of creation, making them fully accountable for treating God's objective revelation with contempt. But natural revelation cannot give life, nor was it ever designed to be an "equal chance" at redemption.

3. The Sovereign Reality of Faith (Phase III & IV)

You write that all have the chance to "turn in faith," and if they don't, it's their choice. This treats faith as a natural capability manufactured by dead clay. But Scripture declares that the natural man is experientially "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1) and possesses a carnal mind that is absolute "enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Romans 8:7).

A dead corpse cannot choose to take a "chance" on a remedy. For a soul to ever turn in faith, they must first be Vitally Quickened in Phase III (Regeneration).

• Christ speaks life into His elect by His own Sovereign Voice apart from the word (John 5:25), monergistically removing the heart of stone and infuses the principle of faith.
• Then, in Phase IV (The Practical Phase - Conversion), the preached word brings that hidden, quickened life to light (2 Tim 1:9–10).
  

Faith is not an autonomous human reaction to an available option; it is the allotted gift (2 Pet 1:1) and vital evidence poured into Christ's sheep on His behalf (Phil 1:29) because they are His blood-purchased inheritance.

The Bottom Line:

Your argument that God would be "less than honest" if He didn't provide a universal, equal opportunity is a philosophical complaint rooted in human standards of fairness. The God of the Bible is the absolute Potter who claims total ownership over the clay (Rom 9:21). He does not offer open-ended chances or run a celestial lottery. He prearranged His family in eternity past (Phase I), legally cleared them and perfected them forever at the cross Heb 10:14 (Phase II), and guarantees that every single soul given to the Son will be irresistibly quickened and brought safely home to populate His table in final glory.

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