Understanding Preterism

[asterisktom]

More evidence - There will be "eating and drinking" in the Kingdom of God (requires a physical body).

Luke 22
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

HankD

But have you considered, Hank, that for every verse like the ones you quoted there are many more seem to emphasis the opposite?

"The Kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit",
"My food is to do the will of the Father who sent Me."

And we have the whole "living Bread" passage in John 6.

The passage quoted above needs to be considered in its context, which goes back to verse 24, being sure to note how we are to understand this "table" from verse 27.

 

[asterisktom]

Doesn't "in like manner" imply a bodily return?

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

"In like manner" is an adverbial phrase. It describes how He was to come back. It says nothing about His being physical - or His being spiritual, for that matter.

So the question is: In what "like manner" does His leaving resemble His coming back.

"9. After he had said this, while they were watching, he was lifted up and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10. As they were still staring into the sky while he was going, suddenly two men in white clothing stood near them 11. and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand [here] looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven."

We have the following two particulars that immediately preceded the angel's announcement: "a cloud hid him from their sight".

He will come with a cloud.
He will not be visible.

No mention of a body.

 

[HankD]

Doesn't "in like manner" imply a bodily return?

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Yes, and this was a point of debate years ago on the BB with Tom and other preterists.

The basic problem is in the assignment of words and phrases to other than a literal meaning.
Preterism relies heavily upon spritualizing and reassignment of bible words and phrases.
Everyone does but IMO full preterism holds the record.

e.g. The passage you refer to Tom.
Also:
2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

All of this supposedly happened circa AD70, however no early church fathers or church historian that I could find relate this passage to the events surrounding the Titus destruction of Jerusalem.

HankD

 

[HankD]

But have you considered, Hank, that for every verse like the ones you quoted there are many more seem to emphasis the opposite?

"The Kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit",
"My food is to do the will of the Father who sent Me."

And we have the whole "living Bread" passage in John 6.

The passage quoted above needs to be considered in its context, which goes back to verse 24, being sure to note how we are to understand this "table" from verse 27.

Yes, but the truth lesson being taught here is that the kingdom of God is not merely meat and drink but it is a secondary part of it.

Lets go all the way back to verse 14.

Luke 22
14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
23 And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing.
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

While preterist are quick to point out that we who are not preterists ought to take the natural human meaning of "I come quickly" rather than assigning the meaning to God's view of "quickly" to the phrase, they are reticent to take there own advice Tom with many other passages. such as Luke 22; 2 Peter 3; Acts 1:9-11; Revelation 1 and many others.

That is the "bottom line" conflict between preterism and futurism - a difference of semantic assignment of words and phrases between what is natural/human and "spiritual".

HankD

 

[HankD]

redundant post

 

[agedman]

It would be an interesting thread (imo) if those who held a preterist position to list verses of the first advent prophecy that were not literal to that event.

That way at least one can see a pattern (perhaps) of how to read prophecy and discern what is to be taken as literal and what is to be allegory?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

"In like manner" is an adverbial phrase. It describes how He was to come back. It says nothing about His being physical - or His being spiritual, for that matter.

So the question is: In what "like manner" does His leaving resemble His coming back.

"9. After he had said this, while they were watching, he was lifted up and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10. As they were still staring into the sky while he was going, suddenly two men in white clothing stood near them 11. and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand [here] looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven."

We have the following two particulars that immediately preceded the angel's announcement: "a cloud hid him from their sight".

He will come with a cloud.
He will not be visible.

No mention of a body.

'In like manner' means in the same way, only reversed.

1. He left visibly ('He was lifted up'); He will return visibly.
2. People watched Him rise into the air; people will watch Him descend.
3. He was hidden by clouds; He will be revealed by clouds.
4. He left in a physical body (Luke 24:39 again!); He will return in a physical body.

Acts 1:9-11 is by no means the only bust to hyper-preterism, but it is the simplest.

Nowhere does the Bible state that Christ will come back in the flesh.

Acts 1:11.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It's so simple a child could understand it.

When you can't respond to a point the insults are always handy, eh? I am not going to continue in this vein. I really don't want to get involved in pointless, uncharitable arguments. There are people here I have great differences with who still manage to be courteous. You are not one of them.

If you think that's an insult, you have a remarkably thin skin.
However, to be clear: if I were a moderator on this Board, you would not be allowed to make one more post on it. Your views place you well outside of Christian orthodoxy and the moderators here have a duty to protect newcomers and inexperienced Christians from harmful heterodoxy.
In the absence of any action from them, I shall continue to oppose you as forcefully as I can, always supposing that I am not banned instead of you, which is always possible.

 

[TCassidy]

"In like manner" is an adverbial phrase. It describes how He was to come back. It says nothing about His being physical - or His being spiritual, for that matter.

So the question is: In what "like manner" does His leaving resemble His coming back.

"9. After he had said this, while they were watching, he was lifted up and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10. As they were still staring into the sky while he was going, suddenly two men in white clothing stood near them 11. and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand [here] looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven."

We have the following two particulars that immediately preceded the angel's announcement: "a cloud hid him from their sight".

He will come with a cloud.
He will not be visible.

No mention of a body.

Lets examine the context:

v3 he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days,

v9 as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

He was in their sight then He was out of their sight. "In like manner" He will be out of sight then back in sight.

Act 1:10 And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went.

Looking at what? The visible, ascending Savior?


And now the verse in question "You men of Galilee, why stand you looking into heaven? this Jesus, which was received up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

How did He ascend? Bodily, physically. How will He return? Bodily, physically.

 

[TCassidy]

If you think that's an insult, you have a remarkably thin skin.

He may have thin skin but the remark was out of order. To insinuate a child has the ability to see things your way seems to be saying he lacks the perceptual abilities of a child.

 

[TCassidy]

However, to be clear: if I were a moderator on this Board, you would not be allowed to make one more post on it.

But you are not. And even though I, being an Historic Chilliast, strongly disagree with the other Tom's full-preterism, it still, like hyper-dispensationalism, falls (barely) within the broad spectrum of Christian orthodoxy.

After all, the first writings thought to be full-preterism date back to Eusebius writing in about 330 AD.

And it was the Roman Catholic Jesuit Luis de Alcasar, who, during the Counter Reformation (1546 and following) popularized the concept. And that popularity was continued by those who wanted to reunite Catholicism and Protestantism, especially as represented by the Arminian apologist Huig de Groot (Grotius).

And I even agree with some small portions of preterism, including that some promises made to Israel are fulfilled in the church. But I limit that to spiritual Israel and not National Israel.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

He may have thin skin but the remark was out of order. To insinuate a child has the ability to see things your way seems to be saying he lacks the perceptual abilities of a child.

You don't say!

But you are not. And even though I, being an Historic Chilliast, strongly disagree with the other Tom's full-preterism, it still, like hyper-dispensationalism, falls (barely) within the broad spectrum of Christian orthodoxy.

Your latitudinarianism does you no credit. The point at issue is that hyper-preterism denies the future return of Christ in glory aka our Blessed Hope. It is that which places it outside of Christian orthodoxy and it ought not to be countenanced on a Christian website.

After all, the first writings thought to be full-preterism date back to Eusebius writing in about 330 AD.

If that is the case, the Eusebius was contradicting the so-called Apostles' Creed, the Nicaean Creed and the Athanasian Creed, as well as just about every creed since then.

And I even agree with some small portions of preterism, including that some promises made to Israel are fulfilled in the church. But I limit that to spiritual Israel and not National Israel.

I have no issues with any form of Preterism which allows for a future return of Christ, even though I may not agree with it. A discussion forum ought to thresh out eschatological differences in a friendly way, but should not be doing with issues like the Deity, Resurrection or Glorious Return of Christ which are all equally beyond the pale of Christian orthodoxy.

 

[TCassidy]

It is that which places it outside of Christian orthodoxy and it ought not to be countenanced on a Christian website.

It certainly would be easier to just ban anybody who disagreed with me, but on a discussion forum it is probably more apropos to, well, discuss the issue. If you can convince him you have gained a brother. If not, just ban him.

 

[annsni]

"In like manner" is an adverbial phrase. It describes how He was to come back. It says nothing about His being physical - or His being spiritual, for that matter.

So the question is: In what "like manner" does His leaving resemble His coming back.

"9. After he had said this, while they were watching, he was lifted up and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10. As they were still staring into the sky while he was going, suddenly two men in white clothing stood near them 11. and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand [here] looking up into the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way you saw him go into heaven."

We have the following two particulars that immediately preceded the angel's announcement: "a cloud hid him from their sight".

He will come with a cloud.
He will not be visible.

No mention of a body.

I'd say "This same Jesus" would be the Jesus they had just spent the last 3 years with - including His body.

 

[asterisktom]

Yes, but the truth lesson being taught here is that the kingdom of God is not merely meat and drink but it is a secondary part of it.

Lets go all the way back to verse 14.

Luke 22
14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
23 And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing.
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

While preterist are quick to point out that we who are not preterists ought to take the natural human meaning of "I come quickly" rather than assigning the meaning to God's view of "quickly" to the phrase, they are reticent to take there own advice Tom with many other passages. such as Luke 22; 2 Peter 3; Acts 1:9-11; Revelation 1 and many others.

That is the "bottom line" conflict between preterism and futurism - a difference of semantic assignment of words and phrases between what is natural/human and "spiritual".

HankD

Hank, I just have a little time this morning but wanted a clarification on your second to last paragraph. I don't understand your point. Could you rephrase?

Also, I believe that even in verse 16 Christ is speaking metaphorically, just like He did in, say, Mark 18:14 - 21.. In that Mark passage the disciples also misunderstood Christ's language.

 

[HankD]

Hank, I just have a little time this morning but wanted a clarification on your second to last paragraph. I don't understand your point. Could you rephrase?

Also, I believe that even in verse 16 Christ is speaking metaphorically, just like He did in, say, Mark 18:14 - 21.. In that Mark passage the disciples also misunderstood Christ's language.

In Revelation Christ says on more than one occasion "I come quickly" which some preterists use as a kind of proof text that Christ says He is coming to earth in the very near future - perhaps before AD90 then futurists are scolded for taking the position that "quickly" to God is measured differently than man's measurement and that we should give the passage it's natural normal reading which advice preterists themselves do not do but spiritualize or transform certain passages which use "eating and drinking" in the kingdom of God into the eating of Christ's flesh of John 6.

HankD

 

[Grasshopper]

Yes, and this was a point of debate years ago on the BB with Tom and other preterists.

The basic problem is in the assignment of words and phrases to other than a literal meaning.
Preterism relies heavily upon spritualizing and reassignment of bible words and phrases.
Everyone does but IMO full preterism holds the record.

e.g. The passage you refer to Tom.
Also:
2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

All of this supposedly happened circa AD70, however no early church fathers or church historian that I could find relate this passage to the events surrounding the Titus destruction of Jerusalem.

HankD

John Owen,John Lightfoot and John Brown to name a few.

 

[asterisktom]

In Revelation Christ says on more than one occasion "I come quickly" which some preterists use as a kind of proof text that Christ says He is coming to earth in the very near future - perhaps before AD90 then futurists are scolded for taking the position that "quickly" to God is measured differently than man's measurement and that we should give the passage it's natural normal reading which advice preterists themselves do not do but spiritualize or transform certain passages which use "eating and drinking" in the kingdom of God into the eating of Christ's flesh of John 6.

HankD

Thank you for rephrasing. I guess part of my answer is that I don't see how "quickly", an adverb, as a metaphor "a word or phrase used to compare two unlike objects, ideas, thoughts or feelings to provide a clearer description."

But the more substantial answer, IMO, is that the general tenor of Scripture points away from a physical eating and drinking in the Kingdom of God.

BTW, getting back to your first sentence, I would not think that proof text would apply if we are dealing with the numerous "soon's" and "quickly's", etc. found in the NT. Proof-texting is the use of odd, somewhat rare, out-of-context verses to superimpose one's own point. Like when futurists throw 2 Tim. 2:18 at me.

 

[asterisktom]

Correction: Somehow I am unable to correct the above post. The phrase should read...

"I guess part of my answer is that I don't see how "quickly", an adverb, can be used as a metaphor..."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

"I guess part of my answer is that I don't see how "quickly", an adverb, can be used as a metaphor..."

2 Peter 3:8-9.