Understanding the 1000yr Reign?

[Brother Bob]

I've said it before -- I'll say it again. ISRAEL will be the olive tree in the earth per Rom 11, ALL believing Israel grafted back in.

Imagine this if you can ---- OT Israel (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Isaiah, Job -- all those guys and maybe Sarah too :laugh. They ALL get resurrected back to earth on account of that covenant you cite!! Cool, eh? And they see Christ/Messiah, believe, and receive the "heart of flesh" promised to Jeremiah (Did I mention he would be resurrected, too? Yeah!).

Now the "land," all that was promised to Abraham, gets divided up among the tribes but the new priests are not of Levi but of Zadok.

But imagine again --- the land is too small for all those OT and trib saints (Isa 49:20-23) and then the aborted babies, the deceased infants, the mentally infirm of all generations are resurrected and brought to resurrected Israel. Wow! More than they can handle, eh?

Well, guess what. ALL the covenants have LITERAL fulfillments!!

skypair

They were all saved already by faith, what you talking about.
Also, if they remain not in unbelief the rest can be saved today, and already have a heart of flesh.

All the "elect", the remnant that received Christ already are saved. Those who did not believe, still can be saved if they will not remain in unbelief. If they remain in unbelief and death overtakes them, it will be too late for them.

The covenant is to Israel, not the Gentiles. We were grafted in to them, not the other way around, so we became partakers of the root along with them. That is scripture.

Romans 11
16: For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17: And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

How can they already be "among" them and yet they are not there yet????


You make up stuff that the Gentiles have the covenant, because you don't want to cut yourself off.

Show me where that the Covenant is going to be made to the Gentiles?

Show me where that there will be a natural Kingdom on this earth, with Christ sitting on a throne on this earth?

You can't.


BBob,

 

[skypair]

They were all saved already by faith, what you talking about.

The OT saints are "saved" but only unto justification of the soul with God. They are NOT saved in respect of the sanctification of the spirit unto Christ. But luckily for them, there is a "resurrection of the just" into the kingdom of Messiah where their sanctification will occur (John 11:24, Acts 24:15).

The covenant is to Israel, not the Gentiles. We were grafted in to them, not the other way around, so we became partakers of the root along with them. That is scripture.

So we are of the same religion/covenant as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses? Strange. I thought you objected to sacrificing animals for sin. The Mosaic covenant was a covenant of "works," was it not?

I think you're just joshin' me, Bob. Cause all those MK passages I showed you had Israel making sacrifices in an earthly kingdom. I think God has yet to fulfill or carry out His covenants with ISRAEL. In fact, it would be a perfect fulfillment and proof that the covenant was fulfilled if they 1) owned the promised land and 2) made their covenant sacrifices 3) while they had a "heart of flesh" and 4) while their rule was a blessing to the Gentile world!

How can they already be "among" them and yet they are not there yet????

Because they are NOT the Israel that the prophets and Paul were talking about. You have misapplied the parable to all Israel instead of just to some of Israel. But at the end of that parable, Rom 11:26, it says "then shall ALL Israel be saved." That's the END of the parable, Bob. That is given not just to those since Christ but to ALL that ever were! And so, Bob, the "olive tree" must be reconstituted again.

Show me where that there will be a natural Kingdom on this earth, with Christ sitting on a throne on this earth?

Bob, shame on you! I showed you Zech 14:9, 16 and Ezek 43:7 which you could not gainsay because the contexts are clearly literal, not spiritual. Rev 11:15 and Joel 3:17-21 also comes to mind. But you apparently choose to remain willfully ignorant of the truth. :saint:

skypair

 

[kevin hobby]

Exodus 20 :8-11
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

...Note, man is given six days to work and the seventh is the LORDs day.
______________________________

Exodus 31:13
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

...Note, a sign.

______________________________

Numbers 19:11-12
He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days. He shall purify himself with it on the third day, and on the seventh day he shall be clean: but if he purify not himself the third day, then the seventh day he shall not be clean.

...Note, Israel is presently unclean through the dead body of Christ and He shall purify himself (repent) after two days on the third day, with a view to being clean during the seventh day.
______________________________

2 Samuel 1:1-10
Now it came to pass after the death of Saul, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Amalekites, and David had abode two days in Ziklag; It came even to pass on the third day, that, behold, a man came out of the camp from Saul with his clothes rent, and earth upon his head: and so it was, when he came to David, that he fell to the earth, and did obeisance. And David said unto him, From whence comest thou? And he said unto him, Out of the camp of Israel am I escaped. And David said unto him, How went the matter? I pray thee, tell me. And he answered, That the people are fled from the battle, and many of the people also are fallen and dead; and Saul and Jonathan his son are dead also. And David said unto the young man that told him, How knowest thou that Saul and Jonathan his son be dead? And the young man that told him said, As I happened by chance upon mount Gilboa, behold, Saul leaned upon his spear; and, lo, the chariots and horsemen followed hard after him. And when he looked behind him, he saw me, and called unto me. And I answered, Here am I. And he said unto me, Who art thou? And I answered him, I am an Amalekite. He said unto me again, Stand, I pray thee, upon me, and slay me: for anguish is come upon me, because my life is yet whole in me. So I stood upon him, and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after that he was fallen: and I took the crown that was upon his head, and the bracelet that was on his arm, and have brought them hither unto my lord.

...Note Saul was a disqualified ruler (like Satan, who is currently the ruler of spiritual wickedness in high places [lit. the heavenly regions]) and David (who had been anointed as king many years prior) is spoken of as receiving the crown after two days on the third day.
______________________________

Hosea 5:15;6:1-2
I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early. Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

...The one who was offended leaves until the offender seeks His face during their affliction (Tribulation ) and the offender will be raised up to live in His sight after two days on the third day.
______________________________

John 1:29,35,43;2:1
The first Day

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Verse 29 brings us to Day 2

35Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

Verse 35 brings us to Day 3

43The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.

Verse 43 brings us to Day 4

1And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

Verse 1 brings us to Day 7 and there is a marrage.
Notice also that it is mentioned as being on the third day as well.
______________________________

John 4:3-4;40-43
3He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.
4And he must needs go through Samaria.
...
40So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41And many more believed because of his own word;
42And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
43Now after two days he departed thence, and went into Galilee.

...The Jews of Judea and Galilee disliked the people of Samaria because they were only half Jew and thus Gentile.
...Note, Christ abode with the Gentiles two days before going into Galilee on the third day.
______________________________

John 11:6-7
When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.
Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.

...Note, Christ abode two days before returning to heal Lazarus (Israel).
______________________________

John 11:17,43
Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.

...Note, four days without being raised up. (all the way back to Abraham)
______________________________

Matthew 16:27-27;17:1-2
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. 1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them : and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

...Note, Christ was transfigured after six days.
______________________________

One doesn't even have to mention 1 Peter 3 which states "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" or Revelation 20 which states "they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." The whole thrust of scripture points to the 1000 year reign of The Christ over the earth and it will occur after six days on the seventh, referenced from Adam, or after two days on the third, referenced from the ascension of Christ.

~~~~~
To quote from Nathaniel West..."if the thousand years are not in Moses, the Psalms, and the Prophets, they have no right to be in John"

 

[EdSutton]

Exodus 20 :8-11
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

...Note, man is given six days to work and the seventh is the LORDs day.
______________________________

Exodus 31:13
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

...Note, a sign.

______________________________

Numbers 19:11-12
He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days. He shall purify himself with it on the third day, and on the seventh day he shall be clean: but if he purify not himself the third day, then the seventh day he shall not be clean.

...Note, Israel is presently unclean through the dead body of Christ and He shall purify himself (repent) after two days on the third day, with a view to being clean during the seventh day.
______________________________

2 Samuel 1:1-10
Now it came to pass after the death of Saul, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Amalekites, and David had abode two days in Ziklag; It came even to pass on the third day, that, behold, a man came out of the camp from Saul with his clothes rent, and earth upon his head: and so it was, when he came to David, that he fell to the earth, and did obeisance. And David said unto him, From whence comest thou? And he said unto him, Out of the camp of Israel am I escaped. And David said unto him, How went the matter? I pray thee, tell me. And he answered, That the people are fled from the battle, and many of the people also are fallen and dead; and Saul and Jonathan his son are dead also. And David said unto the young man that told him, How knowest thou that Saul and Jonathan his son be dead? And the young man that told him said, As I happened by chance upon mount Gilboa, behold, Saul leaned upon his spear; and, lo, the chariots and horsemen followed hard after him. And when he looked behind him, he saw me, and called unto me. And I answered, Here am I. And he said unto me, Who art thou? And I answered him, I am an Amalekite. He said unto me again, Stand, I pray thee, upon me, and slay me: for anguish is come upon me, because my life is yet whole in me. So I stood upon him, and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after that he was fallen: and I took the crown that was upon his head, and the bracelet that was on his arm, and have brought them hither unto my lord.

...Note Saul was a disqualified ruler (like Satan, who is currently the ruler of spiritual wickedness in high places [lit. the heavenly regions]) and David (who had been anointed as king many years prior) is spoken of as receiving the crown after two days on the third day.
______________________________

Hosea 5:15;6:1-2
I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early. Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

...The one who was offended leaves until the offender seeks His face during their affliction (Tribulation ) and the offender will be raised up to live in His sight after two days on the third day.
______________________________

John 1:29,35,43;2:1
The first Day

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Verse 29 brings us to Day 2

35Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

Verse 35 brings us to Day 3

43The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.

Verse 43 brings us to Day 4

1And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

Verse 1 brings us to Day 7 and there is a marrage.
Notice also that it is mentioned as being on the third day as well.
______________________________

John 4:3-4;40-43
3He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.
4And he must needs go through Samaria.
...
40So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41And many more believed because of his own word;
42And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
43Now after two days he departed thence, and went into Galilee.

...The Jews of Judea and Galilee disliked the people of Samaria because they were only half Jew and thus Gentile.
...Note, Christ abode with the Gentiles two days before going into Galilee on the third day.
______________________________

John 11:6-7
When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.
Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.

...Note, Christ abode two days before returning to heal Lazarus (Israel).
______________________________

John 11:17,43
Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.

...Note, four days without being raised up. (all the way back to Abraham)
______________________________

Matthew 16:27-27;17:1-2
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. 1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them : and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

...Note, Christ was transfigured after six days.
______________________________

One doesn't even have to mention 1 Peter 3 which states "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" or Revelation 20 which states "they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." The whole thrust of scripture points to the 1000 year reign of The Christ over the earth and it will occur after six days on the seventh, referenced from Adam, or after two days on the third, referenced from the ascension of Christ.

~~~~~
To quote from Nathaniel West..."if the thousand years are not in Moses, the Psalms, and the Prophets, they have no right to be in John"

Welcome to the Baptist Board. Don't worry, all of us who post on the BB are not as adament and strident as some you have seen on this thread.
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Some of us are even more strident on some things!

Incidentally, I do not agree at all with the Nathaniel West comment. For it would demand every single teaching found anywhere in Scripture to be found in each and every book. That is simply not the nature of Biblical revelation, by any stretch. One cannot, for example, find the "NT church" taught in Genesis or Jonah. That would be and is utter folly, and a misuse of Scripture, to do so, at least as I see it.

However, I also believe it is a misuse of Scripture to attempt to read 'out of the numbers' significance that is simply not there. Three days and three nights is Scripturally significant, because Jesus said it was. Four days Lazarus had been in the tomb, and the supposed significance of "all the way back to Abraham", is ridiculous, and cut from whole cloth. Neither Jesus, nor any NT writer attaches any particular 'mystical' or typological significance to this. I do not believe we should either, frankly.

However, did you notice that the religious leaders wanted to kill a man who was already legally dead. (Jn. 11:39,44; 12:1, 11)

Ed

 

[kevin hobby]

...Thanks for the welcome Mr. EdSutton, though, I don't see this statement by West as conforming to that logic...The suffering and foremost, the subsequent reigning of The Christ, remain the central message throughout scripture...

"Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself"

...Concerning your comment that the "NT church" is not taught in Genesis, I wholeheartedly disagree...

 

[EdSutton]

...Thanks for the welcome Mr. EdSutton, though, I don't see this statement by West as conforming to that logic...The suffering and foremost, the subsequent reigning of The Christ, remain the central message throughout scripture...

"Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself"

...Concerning your comment that the "NT church" is not taught in Genesis, I wholeheartedly disagree...

I certainly would not disagree that the message of redemption is the central one of Scripture. From the Garden of Eden, until "the last person in histroy, is ever born", the central message is that of redemption, through the blood, and that of 'appropriating it' by faith. (Gen. 15:6, Hab. 2:4;Rom. 4;Heb. 11) However, the church, the body of Christ, is 'additional revelation' starting with Jesus' declaration in Mt. :16. It is expounded and expanded, if you will, by the NT prophets, writers, and apostles. It was a mystery, hidden in times past.

One can get "application" from the OT to the body of Christ; one cannot find "declaration", however.

The "dispensation of grace", for example, was a mystery until Col. 1:25-27, and Eph. 3:1-9.

These (OT Scriptures) were written for our benefit, certainly. (Rom. 15:4) As I have heard often stated, "All Scripture is for us; but not all Scripture is to us."

Good summary, I believe, and I agree.

And may I say, that I ain't hanging around to partake of Jacob's trouble, either, but I'm sure gonna' enjoy every minute of the 1000 year reign, and enjoy every minute of the "dispensation of the fullness of times"(Eph. 1:10), as well. No sadness in store for me, there. (Isa. 25:8; Rev. 7:17; 21:7)

Ed

 

[kevin hobby]

Four days Lazarus had been in the tomb, and the supposed significance of "all the way back to Abraham", is ridiculous, and cut from whole cloth. Neither Jesus, nor any NT writer attaches any particular 'mystical' or typological significance to this. I do not believe we should either, frankly.

...You mentioned Jonah. Israel just as Jonah was called to be a witness to the Gentiles, both initially refused, both were cast into the sea and both will be raised out of the sea...

It is only after this that Israel will fulfill her calling (after six days referenced from Adam, after two days referenced from the ascension of Christ and after four days referenced from Abraham) as a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation, inasmuch as, through Israel shall all families of the earth be blessed and just as the brethren of Joseph eventually go out saying, Joseph is yet alive, and he is governor over all the land of Egypt, the brethren of Christ will eventually go out saying, Jesus is yet alive, and he is King over all the Earth.

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:12
I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Isaiah 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Zechariah 2:10-12
Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.

Zechariah 8:20-23
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities: And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also. Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

 

[kevin hobby]

One can get "application" from the OT to the body of Christ; one cannot find "declaration", however.

The "dispensation of grace", for example, was a mystery until Col. 1:25-27, and Eph. 3:1-9.

These (OT Scriptures) were written for our benefit, certainly. (Rom. 15:4) As I have heard often stated, "All Scripture is for us; but not all Scripture is to us."

...I think that we are in agreement so long as it is understood that the mystery revealed to Paul, "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel", has always existed within the Tanakh, though it had not been opened up and made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed...

...Now as for your statement "All Scripture is for us; but not all Scripture is to us" I do agree that far too often Christians mistakenly read someone else's mail, if you will...

 

[Brother Bob]

The OT saints are "saved" but only unto justification of the soul with God. They are NOT saved in respect of the sanctification of the spirit unto Christ. But luckily for them, there is a "resurrection of the just" into the kingdom of Messiah where their sanctification will occur (John 11:24, Acts 24:15).

So we are of the same religion/covenant as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses? Strange. I thought you objected to sacrificing animals for sin. The Mosaic covenant was a covenant of "works," was it not?

I think you're just joshin' me, Bob. Cause all those MK passages I showed you had Israel making sacrifices in an earthly kingdom. I think God has yet to fulfill or carry out His covenants with ISRAEL. In fact, it would be a perfect fulfillment and proof that the covenant was fulfilled if they 1) owned the promised land and 2) made their covenant sacrifices 3) while they had a "heart of flesh" and 4) while their rule was a blessing to the Gentile world!

Because they are NOT the Israel that the prophets and Paul were talking about. You have misapplied the parable to all Israel instead of just to some of Israel. But at the end of that parable, Rom 11:26, it says "then shall ALL Israel be saved." That's the END of the parable, Bob. That is given not just to those since Christ but to ALL that ever were! And so, Bob, the "olive tree" must be reconstituted again.

Bob, shame on you! I showed you Zech 14:9, 16 and Ezek 43:7 which you could not gainsay because the contexts are clearly literal, not spiritual. Rev 11:15 and Joel 3:17-21 also comes to mind. But you apparently choose to remain willfully ignorant of the truth. :saint:

skypair

I have asked before, what were the Gentiles grafted in to???? Anyway, according to them you have the soul of an animal, how would you know???

If you can not convince unbelieving Israel, who live under the OT, where all the scriptures your doctrine comes from, how you going to convince anyone else.

Rom 11:17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

If they were already the seed, then how come they were grafted in. If they were grafted in, then to who?

If some were broken off, then from what were they broken off from?


I been reading where you got your hands full on the other thread with Grasshopper..........

BBob,

 

[kevin hobby]

I have asked before, what were the Gentiles grafted in to????

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies (Genesis 22:17)

It is quite apparent that the first use of the term seed in 22:17 has a collective referent, “as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore”. I think “oybayw” is a singular pronominal suffix (correct me if I’m wrong), so the next referent of seed might possibly be better understood as a single individual (in reference to possession of the gate). Either way, regardless of the translation, the truth that Christ is the Seed of Abraham in no way disacknowledges that Abraham’s seed is multitudinous in literal quantity, rather, Christ, as the representative head of said multitude is preeminent and this preeminence as Abraham’s Seed demonstrates that all who are IN CHRIST, by grace through faith, based upon His completed work, are Abraham’s seed, thus insuring the oneness of those who are positionally in Christ. The fact that the singular noun can be used collectively, is precisely what allows Paul to demonstrate this so beautifully in ‘Gal. 3:16,19’. For it is in Christ, and through Christ alone, that the family of Abraham exists, thus groundwork is laid for verses 26 and 29, which state, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus” and “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise”. Thus Christ as the representative head of a multitude of individuals will possess the gate of his enemies, they (the enemies) are enemies of Christ just as they are enemies of those who are in Christ and just as there were giants (literally Nephilim: fallers or fallen-ones) in the earthly land to which Israel is called, there are giants in the heavenly land to which Christians are called.

This inheritance, is with respect to a singular Kingdom and will be applicable to this singular earth and will consist of numerous individuals (as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore, with Jesus Christ himself (the Seed) being the chief corner stone) and this singular Kingdom will involve Christ with Israel, ruling at the head of the nations on the earth (sand) and Christ with His bride, ruling from the heavens over the earth (stars).

 

[Brother Bob]

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies (Genesis 22:17)

It is quite apparent that the first use of the term seed in 22:17 has a collective referent, “as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore”. I think “oybayw” is a singular pronominal suffix (correct me if I’m wrong), so the next referent of seed might possibly be better understood as a single individual (in reference to possession of the gate). Either way, regardless of the translation, the truth that Christ is the Seed of Abraham in no way disacknowledges that Abraham’s seed is multitudinous in literal quantity, rather, Christ, as the representative head of said multitude is preeminent and this preeminence as Abraham’s Seed demonstrates that all who are IN CHRIST, by grace through faith, based upon His completed work, are Abraham’s seed, thus insuring the oneness of those who are positionally in Christ. The fact that the singular noun can be used collectively, is precisely what allows Paul to demonstrate this so beautifully in ‘Gal. 3:16,19’. For it is in Christ, and through Christ alone, that the family of Abraham exists, thus groundwork is laid for verses 26 and 29, which state, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus” and “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise”. Thus Christ as the representative head of a multitude of individuals will possess the gate of his enemies, they (the enemies) are enemies of Christ just as they are enemies of those who are in Christ and just as there were giants (literally Nephilim: fallers or fallen-ones) in the earthly land to which Israel is called, there are giants in the heavenly land to which Christians are called.

This inheritance, is with respect to a singular Kingdom and will be applicable to this singular earth and will consist of numerous individuals (as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore, with Jesus Christ himself (the Seed) being the chief corner stone) and this singular Kingdom will involve Christ with Israel, ruling at the head of the nations on the earth (sand) and Christ with His bride, ruling from the heavens over the earth (stars).

So now we have two thrones???
That inheritance came with a price, the blood of Christ. We receive it only by believing in Christ and being born again. There was a time we were aliens to the commonwealth and were without God.
God is able of the stones to raise up children unto Abraham, that was not the question at all. How being aliens to the commonwealth of Israel and without God, were we grafted in to, and what were we grafted in to.
What you speak of is through faith we receive the inheritance, but first we had to become able to become a part of them.

Scripture says it is not "meet" to give it unto the dogs.

Rom 9:27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

I believe they all cried they had "Abraham" as their Father.

Luk 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


BBob,

 

[Thinkingstuff]

1000 year reign

Wow a lot of stuff about the apocolyptic literature. This discussion could have happened with the Essenes. They got it wrong as well. I'm probably one of the very few here that believe that the entire revelation of John already occured and will occur. As far as the 1000 year reign. The ancient world used numbers symbolically as had been stated previously. It's funny that in our world we happen to be very emperical. The ancient world wasn't like that when it came to appocolyptic literature. I think the 1000 years probably means a very long time. Not specifically 1000 years. to the Ancients 7 - Gods working in the world; 10 was completness 40 was an entire generation and 70 is a multiple of 7 - Gods working in the world multiplied with 10 completeness. I refer to Daniel prophesy. I think we take our current world view and imperical way of thinking and apply it to scriptures which was writen in the ancient world in a different society. We should really evaluate what the ancient world meant. We can probably draw some similarties between the book of Enoch 1 and Revelations. Keep this in mind.

 

[Brother Bob]

Wow a lot of stuff about the apocolyptic literature. This discussion could have happened with the Essenes. They got it wrong as well. I'm probably one of the very few here that believe that the entire revelation of John already occured and will occur. As far as the 1000 year reign. The ancient world used numbers symbolically as had been stated previously. It's funny that in our world we happen to be very emperical. The ancient world wasn't like that when it came to appocolyptic literature. I think the 1000 years probably means a very long time. Not specifically 1000 years. to the Ancients 7 - Gods working in the world; 10 was completness 40 was an entire generation and 70 is a multiple of 7 - Gods working in the world multiplied with 10 completeness. I refer to Daniel prophesy. I think we take our current world view and imperical way of thinking and apply it to scriptures which was writen in the ancient world in a different society. We should really evaluate what the ancient world meant. We can probably draw some similarties between the book of Enoch 1 and Revelations. Keep this in mind.

already occured and will occur

What does that mean? it has already occured and it will occur??

BBob,

 

[kevin hobby]

So now we have two thrones???
That inheritance came with a price, the blood of Christ. We receive it only by believing in Christ and being born again.

Yes, we simply apply The Blood. Now, even though Israel has slain The Paschal Lamb, they have yet to apply The Blood. The day, though, is right out ahead, when, in their affliction they will seek God early and the children of Israel will sigh by reason of the bondage, and they will cry, and their cry will come up unto God by reason of the bondage and God will send Christ and they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn, And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

Ezekiel 37:1-14
The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

1000

The anti christ the persecution of the church occured during the Roman Empire (Nero and Tiberius). What will occure the last judgement before God and there will be other anti christ and church persecutions. I think we tend to be too literal with revelatons. Its apocolyptic literature.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes, we simply apply The Blood. Now, even though Israel has slain The Paschal Lamb, they have yet to apply The Blood. The day, though, is right out ahead, when, in their affliction they will seek God early and the children of Israel will sigh by reason of the bondage, and they will cry, and their cry will come up unto God by reason of the bondage and God will send Christ and they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn, And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

Ezekiel 37:1-14
The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

If Israel has not obtained salvation, then who are these people??

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Only some of the branches were broken off and later Paul said that he might be able to convince some of those who were broken off to believe and be saved, in Paul's day, not end of time.

Rom 11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

Why did Paul think that He might save some of them, that were blinded, in his day, not the end of time??

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

The anti christ the persecution of the church occured during the Roman Empire (Nero and Tiberius). What will occure the last judgement before God and there will be other anti christ and church persecutions. I think we tend to be too literal with revelatons. Its apocolyptic literature.

I agree most of it is in the past, for sure.

Bbob,

 

[kevin hobby]

If Israel has not obtained salvation, then who are these people??

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Only some of the branches were broken off and later Paul said that he might be able to convince some of those who were broken off to believe and be saved, in Paul's day, not end of time.

Rom 11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

Why did Paul think that He might save some of them, that were blinded, in his day, not the end of time??

BBob,

...Here's the picture...

"nor shall they say, Lo here, or, Lo there; for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you" (Darby Bible Translation)

...The King was in their midst and the kingdom (both earthly and heavenly) could have, then, been established, but, the nation of Israel, as a whole, rejected the message of Christ and consiquently, the offer of the heavenly kingdom was taken from Israel, necessitating that a new nation be brought into existence to whom the offer could be made (the one new man).

Matthew 21
18Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
19And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever ["eis ton aiōna" Lit. into the age]. And presently the fig tree withered away
...
43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The phrase “The kingdom of God” can obviously, in its broadest since, speak of the entire universe, though contextually, its use throughout the whole of the new testament (as far as my studies have convinced me) is with respect to the kingdom of the heavens which Christ’s message centered around ("Repent, for the kingdom of heaven [lit. the kingdom of the heavens] is near") and is presently being offered to “a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy”, “the holy brethren” who are presently the “partakers of the heavenly calling”.

...Here is one such instance which links the phrase “The kingdom of God” to “the kingdom of heaven [lit. the kingdom of the heavens]”.

Matthew 19
23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven [lit. the kingdom of the heavens].
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

...Now, concerning this “holy nation”, if a Gentile is to be brought into a position to which “the kingdom of heaven [lit. the kingdom of the heavens]” can be offered to that individual, then it is first necessary that the individual become a new creation in Christ and if a Jew is to be brought into a position to which “the kingdom of heaven [lit. the kingdom of the heavens]” can be offered to that individual, then it is first necessary that the individual become a new creation in Christ.

There are presently three creations within the human realm on earth today: Jew, Gentile and Christian.

Isaiah 43:1
But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob…

1 Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

 

[Brother Bob]

...Here's the picture...

"nor shall they say, Lo here, or, Lo there; for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you" (Darby Bible Translation)

...The King was in their midst and the kingdom (both earthly and heavenly) could have, then, been established, but, the nation of Israel, as a whole, rejected the message of Christ and consiquently, the offer of the heavenly kingdom was taken from Israel, necessitating that a new nation be brought into existence to whom the offer could be made (the one new man).

Matthew 21
18Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
19And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever ["eis ton aiōna" Lit. into the age]. And presently the fig tree withered away
...
43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The phrase “The kingdom of God” can obviously, in its broadest since, speak of the entire universe, though contextually, its use throughout the whole of the new testament (as far as my studies have convinced me) is with respect to the kingdom of the heavens which Christ’s message centered around ("Repent, for the kingdom of heaven [lit. the kingdom of the heavens] is near") and is presently being offered to “a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy”, “the holy brethren” who are presently the “partakers of the heavenly calling”.

...Here is one such instance which links the phrase “The kingdom of God” to “the kingdom of heaven [lit. the kingdom of the heavens]”.

Matthew 19
23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven [lit. the kingdom of the heavens].
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

...Now, concerning this “holy nation”, if a Gentile is to be brought into a position to which “the kingdom of heaven [lit. the kingdom of the heavens]” can be offered to that individual, then it is first necessary that the individual become a new creation in Christ and if a Jew is to be brought into a position to which “the kingdom of heaven [lit. the kingdom of the heavens]” can be offered to that individual, then it is first necessary that the individual become a new creation in Christ.

There are presently three creations within the human realm on earth today: Jew, Gentile and Christian.

Isaiah 43:1
But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob…

1 Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

So, if the kingdom was taken away from them and given unto another, that would be "replacement" theology, right?

If God promised that "new" covenant to Israel and the house of Judah, and God knows all things, where in OT does it say it will be given unto the Gentiles instead of Israel.

Jer 31:31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

If this be the case, then where do you find that God is going to do it all over again in the end of time and give Israel another chance. Also, what if Israel refuses it again?

Now if the kingdom was given unto another, there was also a "new" covenant. Was that "new" covenant given unto this other people and are we living under the "new" covenant today??

You did not answer the following of who are these people if not Israel?

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded


BBob,

 

[kevin hobby]

1.
-------

So, if the kingdom was taken away from them and given unto another, that would be "replacement" theology, right?

...No. I've already covered this...

"This inheritance, is with respect to a singular Kingdom and will be applicable to this singular earth and will consist of numerous individuals (as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore, with Jesus Christ himself (the Seed) being the chief corner stone) and this singular Kingdom will involve Christ with Israel, ruling at the head of the nations on the earth (sand) and Christ with His bride, ruling from the heavens over the earth (stars)."

...Only the heavenly aspect of The Kingdom was taken from Israel...
-------




2.
-------

If God promised that "new" covenant to Israel and the house of Judah, and God knows all things, where in OT does it say it will be given unto the Gentiles instead of Israel.

...It doesn't. The "new" covenant is yet to be made with Israel, not the Church...
-------




3.
-------

If this be the case, then where do you find that God is going to do it all over again in the end of time and give Israel another chance. Also, what if Israel refuses it again?

...I've already covered this too...

Even though Israel has slain The Paschal Lamb, they have yet to apply The Blood. The day, though, is right out ahead, when, in their affliction they will seek God early and the children of Israel will sigh by reason of the bondage, and they will cry, and their cry will come up unto God by reason of the bondage and God will send Christ and they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn, And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

-------




4.
-------

Now if the kingdom was given unto another, there was also a "new" covenant. Was that "new" covenant given unto this other people and are we living under the "new" covenant today??

...No, no, no, a thousand times, no...
-------