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Understanding the 1000yr Reign?
- Thread starter TCGreek
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Brother Bob
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I am not arguing with anyone, it is you who sounds like you are agitated, not me. Also, the stong's does say a "unlimited time" for 1000 in Rev.EdSutton said:
The part, if you did in your sins, where I am you can not come, was spoken by Jesus, and He was talking to the Jews, but it does not seem to matter what the Lord said about the matter. Such as, I will come as a their in the night. If it was during the MK as you put it, He would already be there. What difference would it make to a Jew, when He comes if they are all going to be saved. You tell me, He told the Jews " if you die in your sins, where I am you can not come". Now if they are all going to be saved, why on earth did Jesus tell the Jews they couldn't come to where He is, and what difference would it matter when He comes if they are all going to be saved anyway. Also, He came to His own, and as many as received Him, gave He to them power to become the sons of God. You also ignore that part. The Gentiles were grafted in to the Original branches, you do not seem to address that either. I have told you over and over what strong's said about 1000, yet you still seem to ignore, saying you have to work on the farm. I suppose that is to clean up after the livestock...............
BBob, :BangHead:
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You're getting excited and "blowing chunks" on your keyboard again, BBob. :laugh:Brother Bob said:
Did someone see and recognize Isaiah ("together with MY dead body shall they arise") in Mt 27 and I didn't read about it? And didn't I ask you to document him and Daniel and Abraham, etc. being resurrected that day? so you could prove your point? Or do you just think no one but you knows about it?
Did I get this right -- that you are teaching Primitive Baptist theology? Well, I agree that it is pretty primitive, at least. :laugh: You've taken the study of eschatology back to somewhere before Darby, for sure.
skypair
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Brother Bob
New Member
Rev 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.TCGreek said:
John already knew of the wrath of God which was to come, so the angels must of been holding back the four winds in John’s time.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Here John speaks of the wrath which was to come.
Rev 14:
1: And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2: And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Here they sing a new song, spoken of by Isaiah the Prophet, of when Jesus would be the first resurrection and many dead bodies shall rise with Jesus and sing that new song.
This is the Firstfruits!!!
Rev. teaches of before the cross, until after the rapture when we shall all be in Heaven.
You are teaching a doctrine that has already happened.
If the 144,000 are not the "firstfruits" because they raised with Christ as Isaiah said, then why would you call them the "firstfruits", being the rapture came first according to you.
They certainly were raptured from the earth, so the earth must of still been here, They were raptured from among men, so they must of still been the living here. They were not on the earth, for they were before the throne of God.
BBob,
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Brother Bob
New Member
Hey! Nice ad hominem attack!Brother Bob said:
[Post snipped, in order to print.]
I'm not exactly sure who "stong's" is, but no matter, I guess. (Also, not sure why I bother, at times! Actually, that is not true. I do know why I bother to post - namely by using my two spiritual gifts that I was given by the Holy Spirit, at His sole discretion, in attempting to help someone else, who may actually be looking to learn, about a particular subject.)
Strong's Concordance, however, says this.
I see nothing said here about any "unlimited time", do you, at least for Rev. 20:4. Maybe I missed it in the related word of "χιλιάς". I'll check.
Nope, nothing saying anything about any "unlimited time" here, either, as far as I can see. Just to be on the safe side, I'm going to check Wigram and Thayer, as well.
Still didn't find any "unlimited time". {Sigh!}
Funny, I don't recall you telling me any of what I just posted! You wanna' provide the link where you did this??
I admit, I don't have a BAGD, to look it up today (but I still haven't invested the $C-note+ that BAGD would run, either), and the two lexicons I do have, like Strong's, are both somewhat dated. However, they both, along with Strong, do not say anything about any "unlimited time" for "thousand", still.
Perhaps you are misreading "Strong's", which I think is the case. The exact plan of Strong, is found on page #5 in the Greek Dictionary section. I'll quote the appropiate part(s) following the pronounciation; and I'll insert in bold red, (and explain if needed, as I see it) in blue, what Strong's has under the entry.
[Again, since I did much of this once before, and it apparently fell on deaf ears!]
I have checked over 35 versions/editions of the Bible with all but two being in English, for this verse - the 21 English versions found on Bible Gateway, plus the MLB, AKJ, BBE, DRB, ERV, GWT, TNT, WBS, WEB, NET, NRSV, WEY, NBL, Vulgate, and Phillips. Each and every one of these I checked had the word "χίλιοι" translated as "thousand", except the Vulgate and NBL, where the word was translated into the Latin and Spanish equivalent of the English word for "thousand", respectively.
I would guess that this represents well over 500 translators, given that most had groups of translators and/or consultants working on the translating teams. Almost 50 were on the KJV teams, alone; Roughly the same number were on the teams of the NKJV; at least 30 worked on the MLB, the HCSB had 100 working on it, the NIV had over 100, and the NASB has had more than 50, that I'm aware of. I'm already at ~ 400, and I've only covered 6 of 35 versions listed. (BTW, this is not some "inside knowledge"; it is all public record, and can be found, if not in the current edition of the version, itself, as in the MLB, or on the internet.
All of those translators have forgotten more than I will ever know, I'm, sure. But I do still know one thing, here, and of that I am for sure. Not one translator or translators, or at least, apparently, the majority of any groups of translators saw it appropriate to render "χίλιoι" as "of unlimited time", at least in Rev. 20:4, and I can assure you that the KJV, NKJV, AV, and RV did not do this in any instance. (I can't speak for the other 30-odd versions, for it would take me a week or more, to look up each and every instance of the usage of the word "chiloi" in all of the versions.)
Brother Bob, there is an on-line, 'net' version, that is similar to 'wiki" in its approach, in that anyone can enter his or her translation of any verse in Scripture, by editing the verse that is there, or entering a verse that has not been translated. (You, too, can be a Bible translator!) :thumbs: (And another can edit it out, just as well as you or I can enter it.)
Unfortunately, I do not remember the name of it, at the moment. But I'm sure you can find it. Then once you do, you can translate (or edit) Rev. 20:4, to read "unlimited time". And then you can see how long it will stand. Maybe it will stand the test, indefinitely, I don't know. But you should know that some Bible College, University, or Seminary Professor, somewhere, who actually gets paid to know this stuff, and teach the Koine Greek and/or Biblical Hebrew and/or Aramaic, might read the translation, and not agree with your or my rendering of it. In which case, I would guess it might be fairly short-lived.
BTW, I was working on fence, before it rained, so that I could keep cattle out of the hay-fields, and also keep to make sure we keep them from getting into some wild cherry limbs we will cut, that are hanging out over the edge of the hayfields, interfering with the tractors. Wilted wild cherry leaves (unlike green ones) have a high level of hydrocyanic (also known as prussic) acid content, and can kill animals that eat them in a high enough quantity, as this is turned into cyanide. Then I might have to be cleaning up dead cattle, which I am not particularly wanting to do. But I do appreciate your concern and thoughtful comment about cleaning up after the cattle.
Ed
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Brother Bob
New Member
Being you brought up "cattle", gives me an opportunity to show you a "thousand", may not be a thousand of man's count.EdSutton said:Hey! Nice ad hominem attack!
[Post snipped, in order to print.]
I'm not exactly sure who "stong's" is, but no matter, I guess. (Also, not sure why I bother, at times! Actually, that is not true. I do know why I bother to post - namely by using my two spiritual gifts that I was given by the Holy Spirit, at His sole discretion, in attempting to help someone else, who may actually be looking to learn, about a particular subject.)
Strong's Concordance, however, says this.I see nothing said here about any "unlimited time", do you, at least for Rev. 20:4. Maybe I missed it in the related word of "χιλιάς". I'll check. Nope, nothing saying anything about any "unlimited time" here, either, as far as I can see. Just to be on the safe side, I'm going to check Wigram and Thayer, as well.Still didn't find any "unlimited time". {Sigh!}
Funny, I don't recall you telling me any of what I just posted! You wanna' provide the link where you did this??
I admit, I don't have a BAGD, to look it up today (but I still haven't invested the $C-note+ that BAGD would run, either), and the two lexicons I do have, like Strong's, are both somewhat dated. However, they both, along with Strong, do not say anything about any "unlimited time" for "thousand", still.
Perhaps you are misreading "Strong's", which I think is the case. The exact plan of Strong, is found on page #5 in the Greek Dictionary section. I'll quote the appropiate part(s) following the pronounciation; and I'll insert in bold red, (and explain if needed, as I see it) in blue, what Strong's has under the entry.
[Again, since I did much of this once before, and it apparently fell on deaf ears!]
I have checked over 35 versions/editions of the Bible with all but two being in English, for this verse - the 21 English versions found on Bible Gateway, plus the MLB, AKJ, BBE, DRB, ERV, GWT, TNT, WBS, WEB, NET, NRSV, WEY, NBL, Vulgate, and Phillips. Each and every one of these I checked had the word "χίλιοι" translated as "thousand", except the Vulgate and NBL, where the word was translated into the Latin and Spanish equivalent of the English word for "thousand", respectively.
I would guess that this represents well over 500 translators, given that most had groups of translators and/or consultants working on the translating teams. Almost 50 were on the KJV teams, alone; Roughly the same number were on the teams of the NKJV; at least 30 worked on the MLB, the HCSB had 100 working on it, the NIV had over 100, and the NASB has had more than 50, that I'm aware of. I'm already at ~ 400, and I've only covered 6 of 35 versions listed. (BTW, this is not some "inside knowledge"; it is all public record, and can be found, if not in the current edition of the version, itself, as in the MLB, or on the internet.
All of those translators have forgotten more than I will ever know, I'm, sure. But I do still know one thing, here, and of that I am for sure. Not one translator or translators, or at least, apparently, the majority of any groups of translators saw it appropriate to render "χίλιoι" as "of unlimited time", at least in Rev. 20:4, and I can assure you that the KJV, NKJV, AV, and RV did not do this in any instance. (I can't speak for the other 30-odd versions, for it would take me a week or more, to look up each and every instance of the usage of the word "chiloi" in all of the versions.)
Brother Bob, there is an on-line, 'net' version, that is similar to 'wiki" in its approach, in that anyone can enter his or her translation of any verse in Scripture, by editing the verse that is there, or entering a verse that has not been translated. (You, too, can be a Bible translator!) :thumbs: (And another can edit it out, just as well as you or I can enter it.)
Unfortunately, I do not remember the name of it, at the moment. But I'm sure you can find it. Then once you do, you can translate (or edit) Rev. 20:4, to read "unlimited time". And then you can see how long it will stand. Maybe it will stand the test, indefinitely, I don't know. But you should know that some Bible College, University, or Seminary Professor, somewhere, who actually gets paid to know this stuff, and teach the Koine Greek and/or Biblical Hebrew and/or Aramaic, might read the translation, and not agree with your or my rendering of it. In which case, I would guess it might be fairly short-lived.
BTW, I was working on fence, before it rained, so that I could keep cattle out of the hay-fields, and also keep to make sure we keep them from getting into some wild cherry limbs we will cut, that are hanging out over the edge of the hayfields, interfering with the tractors. Wilted wild cherry leaves (unlike green ones) have a high level of hydrocyanic (also known as prussic) acid content, and can kill animals that eat them in a high enough quantity, as this is turned into cyanide. Then I might have to be cleaning up dead cattle, which I am not particularly wanting to do. But I do appreciate your concern and thoughtful comment about cleaning up after the cattle.
Ed
Psa 50:10For every beast of the forest [is] mine, [and] the cattle upon a thousand hills.
I suspect He owns all of the cattle on much more than a thousand hills, what do you think???????????
Reckon Strong's thought about that, or you????
BBob,
Hi all,
Maybe this can help:
According to the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance that I have (And e-Sword), it states:
G5507 χίλιοι chilioi khil'-ee-oy Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.
If I understand this correctly, The word χίλιοι is translated to the word Thousand. This word has two meanings (in its use):
1. Plural of uncertain affinity
2. a thousand
In other words, the word χίλιοι (Thousand) can literally mean one thousand (1,000 - on the dot), or it can mean an uncertain (Amount) that resembles 1,000 (A very long time by our standards, not certain on the exact amount).
Maybe this can help:
According to the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance that I have (And e-Sword), it states:
G5507 χίλιοι chilioi khil'-ee-oy Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.
If I understand this correctly, The word χίλιοι is translated to the word Thousand. This word has two meanings (in its use):
1. Plural of uncertain affinity
2. a thousand
In other words, the word χίλιοι (Thousand) can literally mean one thousand (1,000 - on the dot), or it can mean an uncertain (Amount) that resembles 1,000 (A very long time by our standards, not certain on the exact amount).
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Brother Bob said:
Are you saying then that all events of Revelations have taken place in John's time?
Bbob, with your particular reading of Scripture, a person can formulate and teach any doctrine imaginable.
When did John write Revelation?
Is Rev 1:19 a chronological outline of the book?
Isaiah NEVER said that 144, 000 were raised with Christ. You are the one saying that. Not Isaiah!
Yet your view does not seem to be the natural reading of the Apocalypse.
You have sacrificed the plain reading of the text for gymnastics in interpretation.
In Christian love,
TC
Brother Bob
New Member
2Pe 3:10¶But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
For the life of me, I do not understand how people get all the time they put forth after the coming of the Lord. Just me I suppose.
BBob,
For the life of me, I do not understand how people get all the time they put forth after the coming of the Lord. Just me I suppose.
BBob,
Brother Bob
New Member
TCGreek said:
I have earnestly given you scripture. I can see if you read Revelation in chronological order, where you would be in trouble, for Rev. is not written that way.
2Pe 3:10¶But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Where is the MK, in the above scripture??????
2Pe 3:8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Peter did not write this to take up space in the scripture!!!!!!!!!!
1Thes 5:
1: But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2: For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3: For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4: But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5: Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
If your description of Revelation does not match the rest of the Bible, then you have it wrong.
BBob,
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With all respect, Outsider, I'll refer you to page #5, again, in the "Dictionariy" section of Strong's, to see exactly what Dr. Strong's plan is, in the Greek dictionary, as to the words used in the NT. I prefer you read and get this, rather than merely take my word for it. (You might then look up the word "affinity" in a dictionary, as well, and I really do suggest you do so.)Outsider said:
Then you can refer to the center of my post # 106 with the "Christmas tree" colors, then, to see if I have fairly presented this. But I'll still repeat. The words "Plural of uncertian affinity" have to do with the entymology and history of the word before it came into the Koine Greek. The word "chiloi" is always properly translated as "thousand". (That is why it is in italics, in Strong's 'hard copy', which your "pasted clip" does not show, unfortunately.)
That is certainly not to say and I have not said (contrary to that which another one has posted, has implied) that there is not any symbolic and/or 'poetic' usages of the word, as determined by the context of Scripture. However, a symbolic usage does not, in any way, affect how a word is actually 'translated'.
Jesus said, for a well known example, "I am the door." No one I know actually seriously suggests that Jesus "was on hinges", as we know a door today, or was "a hanging curtain over the entry opening of a tent or a house, as would have been fairly common in Palestine in the days He walked the earth. He meant, in the poetic usage, that He was the only way in.
Another example would be the angels in Rev. 5:11, where their numbers are said to be "ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands". That start off with 100 Million, and at least 4 million more, because the second part is in the plural. Is this what John is saying, here? There is an exact count of angels of a certain number of millions? Of course not; he is simply saying, with this idiomatic usage, the same as we would say in our vernacular, that there are "millions and millions" of them - or an infinitely large number.
Hope this helps, a little.
But especially, read the prefaces of Strong's sections, if you are using this work, to see the plan of the book. It will help keep down a lot of confusion. It was not designed to be used, the way some use it, unfortunately.
Gotta' run. Church time.
Ed
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Here's the issue that has you confused ---- "day of the Lord." The "day of the Lord" is God's future dealing with ISRAEL in the 1) tribulation, 2) 2nd coming, and 3) Millennial Kiingdom. God has NO "day of the Lord" for dealing with the church!! CHRIST deals with the CHURCH in the "day of Christ."Brother Bob said:
Gentiles never had a DOTL in the OT -- NEVER prophesied to have one in the NT. Even in the NT (2Thes 2:3 "that day", for example), it refers to a time when the church is GONE -- VANISHED!!
And Bob -- your comments on John are so jumbled. It was John the Baptist that spoke in Mt 3:7 -- it was the APOSTLE John that spoke in Rev 7:1 and he was seeing things that would NOT happen in his lifetime in Rev 7:1. How could you be so confused???
skypair
BBob,
I would think TCGreek would be growing weary of trying to sort out your eschatology. So since I have a few minutes, I'll "bear" some of his "burden." :laugh:
I don't know how you think you can get around this by saying he's not a virgin either! Fact of the matter is that Jesus told us that in the resurrection, they are not married nor given in marriage." Mt 22:30 That would be "virgins," right?
I'm glad you are asking questions because up to now, you have been subverting scripture. Please come and learn a "new and living way."
skypair
I would think TCGreek would be growing weary of trying to sort out your eschatology. So since I have a few minutes, I'll "bear" some of his "burden." :laugh:
In 70 AD, right? WRONG! The wrath of God is the last 7 plagues/bowls and then the return of Christ to the earth per Mt 24:31! for "every eye" in the world to behold, Rev 1:7.
And your allegorizing it 'is what it is,' just about anything you want to make it seem to be! That's TC's point, BBob. And the more you allegoize scripture, the of a "fairy tale" you turn the whole Bible into.
More likely 90 AD.
Bob, within the schema of furture events (Rev 4-22), there is some references back to earlier times. I fyou want to refer to the chronological timeline of Revelation, "track" it by reading Rev 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 13, 16, 19, 20, 21, 22. The rest span backward and forward in time.
Sure he does! He/we just do not see it happening when you do because we don't have convoluted view of the end times. And furthermore, we would expect Isaiah to emerge from his grave if he said it would Isa 26:19 "together with MY DEAD BODY shall they ARISE."
I don't know how you think you can get around this by saying he's not a virgin either! Fact of the matter is that Jesus told us that in the resurrection, they are not married nor given in marriage." Mt 22:30 That would be "virgins," right?
Precedes it on this wise -- MK (Rev 20:6-7), final rebellion (20:8-10), final rapture (20:11), first heaven and first earth passed away (21:1 = 2Pet 3:10), GOD'S/"Thy Kingdom come" (21:2)
I'm glad you are asking questions because up to now, you have been subverting scripture. Please come and learn a "new and living way."
skypair
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Brother Bob
New Member
skypair said:
You are the one who is twisted up, with your animal sacrifices in the "end times".
1Th 5:2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
I don't know if you are a child of the Light, that the day of the Lord is coming to or not. That is between you and the Lord. As for me and my house, we wait for the "day of the Lord".
You have confused yourself so bad and got wrapped up with Israel, you are like a blind man stumbling in the dark. You need to worry about yourself and let God take care of Israel.
BBob,
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Brother Ed,
Thanks for your response. I do see what you are saying. I do not profess to be a greek scholar, but this is what I do not understand, and maybe you can help me understand this better.
G5505 χιλιάς chilias khil-ee-as' From G5507; one thousand (“chiliad”): - thousand.
G5507 χίλιοι chilioi khil'-ee-oy Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.
Both of these greek words are used when the word "Thousand" is written. Example:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand (5505), which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand (5507) years.
Chilias (5505) is from the word Chilioi (5507) and means One Thousand. I take that to mean exactly one thousand. In Rev 14:3, it is saying exactly 144,000.
Chilioi (5507) is plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand.
Affinity means a close resemblance or likeness.
It looks to me that in Rev 20:4, it is saying that they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years (What resembles or is like a thousand years).
Brother Bob
New Member
I do not need an answer to this. I would just like to mention it. The angel that bound satan had a "chain" in his hand. Was that a chain as we know it, or something else?Outsider said:
It was the "souls" OF THEM, that were beheaded for the word of God, and they lived and reigned (past tense), a thousand years.
Does anyone notice, it was just "souls", and if it meant the whole man, I think it would not of said "of them".
Now, if it was a spiritual thing, and only the "souls" reigned, we couldn't see it, if it were happening now.
So, was it really a thousand years, or was it like the cattle on a thousand hills, in other words, symbolic.
Also, please consider 1 day as a thousand years, and thousand years as 1 day with the Lord. Another place 1 day was a year, not a thousand. Another place a thousand years was as yesterday.
So, are we going to get into Rev. where the angel had a chain, and realize it was symbolic, but the thousand was exactly one thousand.
Just some questions I have about the thousand. Carry on.
BBob,
Brother Bob said:
Bbob,
John outlines his book:
"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter" (Rev 1:19, KJV).
Notice the three tenses:
1. Past 2. Present. Future
And when we read 1:9-4:1, you'll see that the Past refers to the vision of Christ (1:12-18).
Then the Present refers to the 7 churches of Asia (chps 2-3).
Now look at 4:1, which happens to be the Future, from 4-22.
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."
John does outline his book, but like Skypair says in various chapters we see a going back and forth, which doesn't nullify the chronology at all.
Bbob, you can't get rid of the MK based on one text,
and when we understand the text in the context of biblical eschatology, it does not frustrate the MK.
What are we suppose to do with Rev 20:4-6?
Peter's words were in response to the scoffers misunderstanding of biblical eschatology (vv.3-7)
This refers to judgment at the end of the 7yr Tribulation and the MK.
Bbob, you need to revisit your method of interpretation when it comes to Bible Prophecies.
You need to drop the Allegorizing Method. It's too inconsistent.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Brother Bob said:
For the life of me, I can't understand how some 10 chapters of the Bible have to be IGNORED so you can misunderstand 2 Peter 3:10.
I started to school, then I graduated from the University of Oklahoma (OU).
(this statement is a summary)
'I started to school' happened in Sept 1949 in Elk City, Oklahoma.
'I graduated from OU' in Dec 1976 - some 27 years later.
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