Understanding the 1000yr Reign?

[Brother Bob]

BBob,

Here seems to be the nub of your problem --- He did NOT come as Israel was promised He would come to them building them a temple and ruling a PHYSICAL kingdom of world peace which we know as the "millennial kingdom." Instead He was slain on the cross and passed from this world.

If you say He has come back to reign and receive His PHYSICAL kingdom after the cross, you "lie and the truth is not in you." The really sad thing is you lie and you know it's a lie and you won't recant it. Just because you have solved half the equation (the new covenant is here) doesn't mean that you have the solution.

Moreover, if I understand it right, this earth will be as Eden for bounty and peace in the MK. And without Satan as it apparently was before Eve. Where do you see any of this??

skypair

You have way too much "vitriol" to even discuss scripture. Yes they were looking for a literal kingdom and would not accept the fact that it was not of this world, but was a spiritual kingdom. Even so, the "elect" received Christ and those who were not blinded by unbelief, received Christ and were given power to become the sons of God. If you deny that, you deny the word of God.

BBob,

 

[J.D.]

Brother Bob, I've noticed your posting on these type of subjects for a long time and have always been impressed with both your biblical knowledge and your usually calm demeanor in these debates in spite of being provoked by mister Skypair. My compliments, sir!

Now, if we could just get you to see the light on election and predestination...

Anyway, we covenantalists do not deny that there are two types of branches - wild and natural - but we do deny that there are two olive trees. Dispensationalism gives us two trees and two co-existing covenants.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob, I've noticed your posting on these type of subjects for a long time and have always been impressed with both your biblical knowledge and your usually calm demeanor in these debates in spite of being provoked by mister Skypair. My compliments, sir!

Now, if we could just get you to see the light on election and predestination...

Anyway, we covenantalists do not deny that there are two types of branches - wild and natural - but we do deny that there are two olive trees. Dispensationalism gives us two trees and two co-existing covenants.

Thank you Sir; and glad someone spoke up who does not believe man will be offering animal sacrifices again.

Now, if we could just get you to see the light on election and predestination...

:applause:

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

TC; The text is very plain that it is talking of the blinded part of Israel and Paul felt he might be able to save some of them in his lifetime. There is no other interptation of that scripture.

BBob,

Bbob, I see a natural progression of events in Paul's words.

1. During this church age, a remnant from among the Jews are being saved,

2. but for now a partial hardening has come to them until the full number of the Gentiles come in,

3. and then God returns to Israel with the coming of her deliverer and the full realization of the new covenant.

Rom 11:25-27

This progression events is indisputable.

 

[Brother Bob]

Bbob, I see a natural progression of events in Paul's words.

1. During this church age, a remnant from among the Jews are being saved,

2. but for now a partial hardening has come to them until the full number of the Gentiles come in,

3. and then God returns to Israel with the coming of her deliverer and the full realization of the new covenant.

Rom 11:25-27

This progression events is indisputable.

Rom 11:23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again

It says absolutely nothing that they can not be grafted back in until the "end times", but they can be grafted back in now, (even in Paul's time) if they abide not still in unbelief. That is what Paul was saying when he said that he might be able to save some of them.

They have been and still are being saved by believing in Jesus Christ, the same as the Gentile.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

You have way too much "vitriol" to even discuss scripture. Yes they were looking for a literal kingdom and would not accept the fact that it was not of this world,...

Aha!! Is Christ coming back at all, BBob??? What for if not to set up an "literal kingdom" on this world?? That could be your whole problem! You don't know that there is to be a literal earthly MILLENNIAL KINGDOM!! All those verses I gave you -- they AREN'T Bull Snot like you think!! What -- have you ripped those pages out of your Bible already??

...but was a spiritual kingdom.

Absolutely!! The spiritual is what came!! Just like in our lives -- the spirit is "changed" first; then the body at the rapture! You are basically admitting to being as "half blind" as the Jews, BBob!! Doesn't surprise me either with your "legalistic" idea about who is saved. Wow! I uncovered a Baptist who is a "closet Jew!" Get out of there, BBob!!

Even so, the "elect" received Christ ... and were given power to become the sons of God. If you deny that, you deny the word of God.

OK, what "elect" are you talking about here? Are you trying to explain that you are a "closet Calvinist," too? And when are you gong to get around to telling us how perfect and peaceful the kingdom that Christ reigns over today is??

BBob, is there a reason you won't directly address any scriptures that speak of a physical kingdom of Christ/Messiah?? What is Christ coming back for anyway??

skypair

 

[skypair]

Brother Bob, I've noticed your posting on these type of subjects for a long time and have always been impressed with both your biblical knowledge and your usually calm demeanor in these debates in spite of being provoked by mister Skypair. My compliments, sir!

:laugh: Now that's some SERIOUS patronizing, J.D.!! :laugh: "Calm demeanor" my ____! He's at "wit's end!" Like the baby on the E-trade commercial, BBob's just about to "blow chunks" on his keyboard!! It would be worth getting banned just for the laugh I'm getting out of this thread development!! :laugh:

Now, if we could just get you to see the light on election and predestination...

And he fell for it!!

"Thank you, Sir!"

And you were just "fishing" for another "convert," weren't you? BB is getting to be a real "Peyton Place," isn't it?

Anyway, we covenantalists do not deny that there are two types of branches - wild and natural - but we do deny that there are two olive trees. Dispensationalism gives us two trees and two co-existing covenants.

"Two co-existing covenants??" "Two trees?" Well, yeah. "Natural" and "wild" trees else where do the "wild branches" come from?? Does the parable not say that? But what, in your mind, puts the "wild tree" under any covenant at all? Are you even reading the same parable as I am?

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

TC:
Acts 2:
29: Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30: Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31: He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32: This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33: Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34: For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35: Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36: Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children.

He was talking to Israel, in his time, not for the end times.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

He was talking to Israel, in his time, not for the end times.

Yeeauh. :BangHead: But it was too late for a literal, physical kingdom, wasn't it?? Deny for me that Christ is coming again, BBob. Deny to me the purpose of His coming again is to set up a kingdom on earth.

You're "in denial," BBob. You are trying to deny a literal, physical kingdom and that is NOT scriptural. Where IS the kingdom of David now??? Do we serve the throne of David, sir? I personally don't send sacrifices or money ("render unto [David]...") to Jerusalem. Do you? His kingdom doesn't make the laws I live by. How about you?

Last time I looked, the "kingdom of David" was about 10 million citizens and it's Muslim enemies alone numbered 1.5 BILLION! Last I heard, the 'kingdom of David' was a "burdensome stone" to the world and a "cup of trembling" to it's neighbors (Zech 12:2-3). Is this the kingdom you claim Christ is reigning over???

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Yeeauh. :BangHead: But it was too late for a literal, physical kingdom, wasn't it?? Deny for me that Christ is coming again, BBob. Deny to me the purpose of His coming again is to set up a kingdom on earth.

You're "in denial," BBob. You are trying to deny a literal, physical kingdom and that is NOT scriptural. Where IS the kingdom of David now??? Do we serve the throne of David, sir? I personally don't send sacrifices or money ("render unto [David]...") to Jerusalem. Do you? His kingdom doesn't make the laws I live by. How about you?

Last time I looked, the "kingdom of David" was about 10 million citizens and it's Muslim enemies alone numbered 1.5 BILLION! Last I heard, the 'kingdom of David' was a "burdensome stone" to the world and a "cup of trembling" to it's neighbors (Zech 12:2-3). Is this the kingdom you claim Christ is reigning over???

skypair

Your theology is OT.

Jesus is coming to receive His Church and pass judgement on satan and his angels, the unbelievers, them that work abomination and them that make a lie at the GWT Judgement.

The church will meet Him in the air and forever be with Him in Heaven. He has no reason to sit foot on the earth again.

"in my Father's house are many mansions and if it were not so, I would of told you. I go away to prepare a place for you and I will come again, to receive you unto myself so that, THERE you may be also"

You can stay here if you want, as for me and my house we are going to Heaven.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Bbob, I see a natural progression of events in Paul's words.

1. During this church age, a remnant from among the Jews are being saved,

2. but for now a partial hardening has come to them until the full number of the Gentiles come in,

3. and then God returns to Israel with the coming of her deliverer and the full realization of the new covenant.

Rom 11:25-27

This progression events is indisputable.

TC; I agree there is some saved during the church age of the Jews, but the ones Paul is speaking of are the ones who were blinded, that makes a whole lot of difference, for they could not be saved until the "fulness of the Gentiles" come.

Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?

BBob,

 

[skypair]

J.D.

Thank goodness I haven't been banned yet. :tear: I want to apologize for my comments to you yesterday. The way you came back into the thread evoked such humorous thoughts that I let my basic straightforwardness (which apparently no one likes) show.

Actually, it is good you keep putting my comments into the perspective that you do and I will keep trying to be a "kinder, gentler" Christian. I appreciate your prayers for me and be assured that I pray for you as well. "Peace?"

skypair

 

[skypair]

He has no reason to sit foot on the earth again.

He has a HUGE reason, BBob ---- God doesn't break His covenants! Where are you saying that God keeps the Davidic Covenant? David never had a throne in heaven and Jesus never sat on an earthly throne that was David's. If God can break His promises to David, what makes you think He can't decide not to rapture us to a heavenly home??

You can stay here if you want, as for me and my house we are going to Heaven.

Well, you got this right. From the moment we are saved, we are a heavenly people seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. That's why we are in a "spiritual" kingdom today.

Israel is and forever will be an earthly people --- myriad as "sands of the sea" vs. we "stars of the heavens" (as God promised of Abraham's spiritual and physical descendants). I don't lump us in with Israel's kingdom -- the Davidic, earthly one. In fact, their kingdom is being resurrected ("born in a day") right before our eyes! And once they return in belief (while we "rest" in heaven, 2Thes 1:7), Messiah will come and fulfill the Davidic Covenant claiming David's throne.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

Already sitting on David's throne. As I said your theology is OT. The Jews believed it would all happen in their life time. All of Daniel, they believe would happen in their life time. He don't need or want an earthly Kingdom, He said My Kingdom is not of this world. The Jews were looking for what you are still looking for. Sure hope you are ready to leave this world when Jesus comes, for all the saved will be going to Heaven.

You say God doesn't break His covenant, but then you say, He didn't give the "new" covenant to who He promised it to, but instead, gave it to the Gentiles. You don't even know what the Gentiles were grafted in too. Scripture teaches us that they were grafted in to Israel, where it was no longer Jew and Gentile, but the twain became "one".

You doctrine is identical to the Jewish doctrine.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

Already sitting on David's throne.

Shall we go up to Jerusalem and worship Him, then??

As I said your theology is OT.

You keep getting this confused, Bob. It is not that I expect to enter it. It is that OT saints expect to and haven't yet. Stephen said in his eloquent "pre-stoning" speech that Abraham NEVER possessed the land that God promised/covenanted him. What do you do with that unkept promise unless you resurrect Abraham to the "land" again?

He don't need or want an earthly Kingdom, He said My Kingdom is not of this world.

And it wasn't at the particular time that He said those words. But it will be true when He comes again with His armies from heaven who will fight for Him to conquor His kingdom in Rev 19:14. What do you do with that passage?

You say God doesn't break His covenant, but then you say, He didn't give the "new" covenant to who He promised it to,...

Didn't give it to them YET. That is the PRECISE point I am trying to make here. The promises to Israel aren't kept YET. Does that mean God is a liar, as you seem to want to have it?

Bob, there are TWO folds that Jesus said He must "bring in." They are Israel and the church -- TWO totally different "adminstrations" of His kingdom. You probably look at them as "Bush 1" and "Bush 2" (i.e. "more of the same"). I look at it as Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. Totally different constituencies and programs. Israel has NOT been brought in.

Scripture teaches us that they were grafted in to Israel, where it was no longer Jew and Gentile, but the twain became "one".

I know -- different branches, same tree. Now imagine if it was only natural branches again "if thou wert cut out," 11:24. That day when YOU will be "cut out" is coming you know. It's called "the rapture." But sadly, it's STILL all a "mystery" (11:25) to you, isn't it?

You doctrine is identical to the Jewish doctrine.

I don't deny that as regards the fulfilling all the promises to Abraham, David, the houses of Israel and Judah, etc. because we have never seen them fulfilled YET.

And I don't know anyone who doesn't KNOW that the rapture that you call future PRECEDES the kingdom of Christ. I mean pretrib, midtrib, prewrath, postrib -- they ALL know that the church is taken out before the Kingdom of Christ. Your Christian eschatology fails of one of it's most important distinctives, Bob.

skypair

 

[J.D.]

J.D.

Thank goodness I haven't been banned yet. :tear: I want to apologize for my comments to you yesterday. The way you came back into the thread evoked such humorous thoughts that I let my basic straightforwardness (which apparently no one likes) show.

Actually, it is good you keep putting my comments into the perspective that you do and I will keep trying to be a "kinder, gentler" Christian. I appreciate your prayers for me and be assured that I pray for you as well. "Peace?"

skypair

Thank you for the apology skypair. I forgive you. That's my first forgiveness of you so you have 489 forgivenesses left. :laugh:
But like I just told Brother Ed in another thread, I understand because I am a frequent over-reactor myself.

I like debates that are a little salty to make them interesting, but sometimes we go overboard with it, don't we?

 

[Brother Bob]

Shall we go up to Jerusalem and worship Him, then??

You keep getting this confused, Bob. It is not that I expect to enter it. It is that OT saints expect to and haven't yet. Stephen said in his eloquent "pre-stoning" speech that Abraham NEVER possessed the land that God promised/covenanted him. What do you do with that unkept promise unless you resurrect Abraham to the "land" again?

And it wasn't at the particular time that He said those words. But it will be true when He comes again with His armies from heaven who will fight for Him to conquor His kingdom in Rev 19:14. What do you do with that passage?

Didn't give it to them YET. That is the PRECISE point I am trying to make here. The promises to Israel aren't kept YET. Does that mean God is a liar, as you seem to want to have it?

Bob, there are TWO folds that Jesus said He must "bring in." They are Israel and the church -- TWO totally different "adminstrations" of His kingdom. You probably look at them as "Bush 1" and "Bush 2" (i.e. "more of the same"). I look at it as Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. Totally different constituencies and programs. Israel has NOT been brought in.

I know -- different branches, same tree. Now imagine if it was only natural branches again "if thou wert cut out," 11:24. That day when YOU will be "cut out" is coming you know. It's called "the rapture." But sadly, it's STILL all a "mystery" (11:25) to you, isn't it?

I don't deny that as regards the fulfilling all the promises to Abraham, David, the houses of Israel and Judah, etc. because we have never seen them fulfilled YET.

And I don't know anyone who doesn't KNOW that the rapture that you call future PRECEDES the kingdom of Christ. I mean pretrib, midtrib, prewrath, postrib -- they ALL know that the church is taken out before the Kingdom of Christ. Your Christian eschatology fails of one of it's most important distinctives, Bob.

skypair

Well, I have to give you credit to admitting that your doctrine is Jewish doctrine. I see now why you are still looking along with all your Jewish friends.

To deny that Christ came to His own, which is Israel, is to deny the scripture.

You make it up as you go.

BTW; His Kingdom is here now. It is within us.

Luk 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Rev 3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

You are looking for a Kingdom made with hands, but the Kingdom of God is not.

Jhn 18:36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Notice the Kingdom will be delivered up, not here on this earth.

How many Kingdoms do you believe the Lord has??????

Can you give scripture where His throne is actually on this earth??? I mean God rules from Heaven now, He don't have to be here to take your breath from you. The sharp two edged sword, I take it to be the word of God. Do you take it to actually mean a sword of some kind?????


BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

TC; I agree there is some saved during the church age of the Jews, but the ones Paul is speaking of are the ones who were blinded, that makes a whole lot of difference, for they could not be saved until the "fulness of the Gentiles" come.

Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?

BBob,

Why is the church still here then?

What ever happened to Daniel's 70th week?

Where's the man of lawlessness?

Why aren't the Jews regathered?

and so on.

 

[skypair]

I like debates that are a little salty to make them interesting, but sometimes we go overboard with it, don't we?

Our belief is missing an important ingredient if it has no passion. :thumbs:

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

Well, I have to give you credit to admitting that your doctrine is Jewish doctrine. I see now why you are still looking along with all your Jewish friends.

To deny that Christ came to His own, which is Israel, is to deny the scripture.

You make it up as you go.

BTW; His Kingdom is here now. It is within us.

Luk 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Rev 3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

You are looking for a Kingdom made with hands, but the Kingdom of God is not.

Jhn 18:36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Notice the Kingdom will be delivered up, not here on this earth.

How many Kingdoms do you believe the Lord has??????

Can you give scripture where His throne is actually on this earth??? I mean God rules from Heaven now, He don't have to be here to take your breath from you. The sharp two edged sword, I take it to be the word of God. Do you take it to actually mean a sword of some kind?????


BBob,

If the kingdom is already here, why did Paul encourage the believers to strive to enter into the kingdom (Act 14:22-24)?