Understanding the 1000yr Reign?

[Brother Bob]

That's a good question, BBob. Are you familiar with dispensationalism? I broke them down in order to show who was "ordained" with the truth on the earth at any given time.

Jesus "kingdom of heaven" parables, and especially Mt 13, speak of 7 earthly administrations of Christ over an earth kingdom and the judgment that follows all leading into His reigning presence in His MK on earth. The point of all these parables seems to be that Christ rules the earthly kingdom INDIRECTLY during the KoH between Adam and the 2nd coming.

But siginificantly, there are two eras that speak of the salvation of the whole man -- body, soul, and (you always leave this out) spirit, 1Thes 5:23. The OT speaks to the justification of the soul/conscience before God. It is "phase 1" of salvation.

The NT is "phase 2" where we are simultaneously justified in soul and sanctified in/by the Spirit. This is critical, BBob, because the OT saints were never sanctified in their spirits and so the MK is for them to be resurrected and prepared in spirit (sanctified, Ezek 37:14, etal.) to receive the kingdom of God.

Now in the future there is also the kingdom that you know about -- the kingdom of God come to earth (after it is delivered up, right?). This is the last "phase of salvation where all who are justified and sanctified are glorified in body together into the "eternal kingdom." Of course, technically, this glorification of the body happened to the church/NT saints preMK into NJ whereas to the MK saints it happens postMK to live in NH/NE (though they like us are initially "caught up" to NJ).

Do you see the purpose now for the earthly MK?? It has to do with the total redemption of man to God.

skypair

Give scripture where Christ will reign on earth, instead of all the kingdoms. You also believe in several resurrections, if my memory serves me correctly.

"1000 Year Reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture? Nor the word "millenium"? The "1000 year reign of Christ" is fiction according to Scripture, which has no substance. It is born and bred from the doctrines of man, not from the Holy Scripture.

The "thousand year reign" appears nowhere in the sixty-six books, except in this one passage where it occurs six times in six consecutive verses (Revelation 20:3-8). It is not solid study to build an entire system of beliefs about the end of the age and the status of the kingdom on such a highly symbolic passage. More especially when that interpretation conflicts with other plain passages of scripture.

Revelation 20:3-8 is the only passage in the entire scriptures that the so-called premillinialists have as the basis for the "1000 year reign." First, it should be pointed out that scripture does not speak of "the thousand year reign of Christ." Revelation 20:4 says, "...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." It is the souls of those who were killed for God's sake that reign with Christ 1000 years.









Symbolic?????????????

Job 9:3, "If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."


Psalms 50:10, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills."

Ecclesiastes 7:28, "...one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found."

Song of Solomon 4:4, "…whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men."

Daniel 5:1, "Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand."

Daniel 7:10, "...thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him."







​

Deuteronomy 7:9, "…which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that…keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"

1 Chronicles 16:15, "Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;"

Psalms 84:10, "For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand."

Psalms 90:4, "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past,"

Psalms 105:8, "He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations."

Ecclesiastes 6:6, "Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?"

2 Peter 3:8, "...one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."



It should be obvious from the above that every occurance of the word "thousand," by itself, throughout scripture, is

not literal but symbolic for a large number or long period of time. Then, why is it when we go to the book of

Revelation (the most symbolic book of them all), many interpret this thousand years as literal? Especially when

there is no scriptural warrant for doing so?

Futurists make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made -- they were not satisfied with a spiritual

kingdom; they had to have a literal, worldly, physical kingdom. The Truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign

for a thousand years some time in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity

We do not have to wait for His Kingdom to come sometime in the future before He starts reigning over our lives,

for Christ's Kingdom is here now, and He desires that we reign with Him now, whether we choose to recognize it or

not!






​

BBob,

 

[Ed Edwards]

And just how many Kingdoms does Christ have anyway????

BBob,

Apparently:

ALL OF THEM

​

Revelation 11:15 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And the seuenth Angell blewe the trumpet, and there were great voyces in heauen, saying, The kingdomes of this worlde are our Lordes, and his Christes, and he shall reigne for euermore.

 

[Brother Bob]

Apparently:

ALL OF THEM​

Revelation 11:15 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And the seuenth Angell blewe the trumpet, and there were great voyces in heauen, saying, The kingdomes of this worlde are our Lordes, and his Christes, and he shall reigne for euermore.

Ed; You know that scripture is saying, the Kingdoms of this world are going to be overcome and destroyed don't you? You don't think He is going to sit on the seat of the Kingdom of Saudia Arabia, do you? What about Great Britian, He will have to sit in a Queen's seat won't He?

Mat 4:8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Rev 17:17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.



Rev 12:10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

One Kingdom (singular)

BBob,

 

[Ed Edwards]

...

Rev 12:10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

One Kingdom (singular)

BBob,

Yep, one 'loud voice' is it the only loud voice ever?
Yep, one heaven, yet we know from elsewhere in the Bible that there are three heavens.
Yep, one 'power of His Christ' -- is it the only 'power of His Christ' ?

Here are some ones that God gives emphesis:

Eph 4:4-6 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
There is one body, and one Spirit, euen as yee are called in one hope of your vocation.
5 There is one Lord, one Faith, one Baptisme,
6 One God and Father of all, which is aboue all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yep, one 'loud voice' is it the only loud voice ever?
Yep, one heaven, yet we know from elsewhere in the Bible that there are three heavens.
Yep, one 'power of His Christ' -- is it the only 'power of His Christ' ?

Here are some ones that God gives emphesis:

Eph 4:4-6 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
There is one body, and one Spirit, euen as yee are called in one hope of your vocation.
5 There is one Lord, one Faith, one Baptisme,
6 One God and Father of all, which is aboue all, and through all, and in you all.

I agree with you Ed; When its talking about the Lord.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

Give scripture where Christ will reign on earth, instead of all the kingdoms. You also believe in several resurrections, if my memory serves me correctly.

So you DON'T believe the "Hallelujiah Chorus?" "And He shall reigh for ever and ever. Forever, and ever, Hallelujiah, Hallelujiah. King of Kings, and Lord of Lords!" :tear: BBob, there's plenty of OT scripture that tells of His earthly kingdom. Just ask yourself, how did Israel expect Him to appear? And did He appear like that? NO! That was the primary reason He was rejected!!

"1000 Year Reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture? Nor the word "millenium"? The "1000 year reign of Christ" is fiction according to Scripture, which has no substance. It is born and bred from the doctrines of man, not from the Holy Scripture.

Shows how much respect you have for the 6 verses where it appears in scripture, BBob. :tear: BBob, it was NOT revealed to Israel how long the descendant of David would reign on his earthly throne --- nor was the church revealed. These things are what we now know to be "mysteries" only hinted at in the OT. Why mysteries? Because it was still encumbent on Israel to reject rather than receive Messiah. How could God tell them they would reject and He would die without revealing the same to Satan! 1Cor 2:7-8 -- "which NONE of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." What exactly do you think letting Satan know what Jesus really came for would accomplish??

First, it should be pointed out that scripture does not speak of "the thousand year reign of Christ." Revelation 20:4 says, "...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." It is the souls of those who were killed for God's sake that reign with Christ 1000 years.

You have been maintaining this charade long enough!! The souls receive BODIES in the MK, BBob! Else they will NEVER be sanctified and NEVER enter into the eternal kingdom!!

Symbolic?????????????

Job 9:3, "If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."​

BBob, don't "go off the deep end" on me. :laugh: CONTEXT, sir. "Thousand" may indeed be used many ways -- but not in the context of Rev 20. I (TC would likely agree) would say that you don't understand God if you don't understand context.

​

Deuteronomy 7:9, "…which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that…keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"

1 Chronicles 16:15, "Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;"​

This one is interesting. Larkin says that in the kingdom of God, there will be 1000 definitive generations before we get to eternity! IOW, we only can glimpse the early part of God's eternal plan!!

It should be obvious from the above that every occurance of the word "thousand," by itself, throughout scripture, is

not literal but symbolic for a large number or long period of time.

No, that is not obvious nor necessarily the meaning.

Futurists make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made -- they were not satisfied with a spiritual

Only because God's promises are ALWAYS LITERALLY fulfilled!

...but that Christ is reigning now...

Oh? The world is in chaos instead of peace and BBob says Christ is reigning over it?? BBob, get serious about studying your premises out. The kingdom of God is STILL in us -- not in the world. You are claiming the works of Satan for God and it is a perversion!!

We do not have to wait for His Kingdom to come sometime in the future before He starts reigning over our lives,

I agree!! But it's the rest of the world that He desires to reign over.

for Christ's Kingdom is here now, and He desires that we reign with Him now

This is quite true but you fail to mention that we can only rule spiritually -- through prayer, not through our spoken word. This, indeed, is the weakness of Christianity --- that we don't realize the power we have through the Spirit!! Satan wants to control our spirit. Why? Because the convinced spirit controls the body. Do you realize that if we could convince the world of the law of God, that we WOULD be in control and liteally usher in peace??? But the "god of this world" has convinced them otherwise.

Even you would admit that the warfare is spiritual, Eph 6:11. What if we could "control" physical behavior?" We would be in the MK!! There would still be hypocrites (like you look for) but they would at least obey Christ! Why? Because Christ would rule them, too! But obviously, therefore, we are not in that kingdom now, are we?

skypair​

 

[Brother Bob]

So you DON'T believe the "Hallelujiah Chorus?" "And He shall reigh for ever and ever. Forever, and ever, Hallelujiah, Hallelujiah. King of Kings, and Lord of Lords!" :tear: BBob, there's plenty of OT scripture that tells of His earthly kingdom. Just ask yourself, how did Israel expect Him to appear? And did He appear like that? NO! That was the primary reason He was rejected!!

Wonder why the remnant did receive Him and were given power to become the sons of God.

Shows how much respect you have for the 6 verses where it appears in scripture, BBob. :tear: BBob, it was NOT revealed to Israel how long the descendant of David would reign on his earthly throne --- nor was the church revealed. These things are what we now know to be "mysteries" only hinted at in the OT. Why mysteries? Because it was still encumbent on Israel to reject rather than receive Messiah. How could God tell them they would reject and He would die without revealing the same to Satan! 1Cor 2:7-8 -- "which NONE of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." What exactly do you think letting Satan know what Jesus really came for would accomplish??

Some had enough knowledge to receive Him.

You have been maintaining this charade long enough!! The souls receive BODIES in the MK, BBob! Else they will NEVER be sanctified and NEVER enter into the eternal kingdom!!

The souls were already sanctified and did live and reign with Christ, what are you talking about???

BBob, don't "go off the deep end" on me. :laugh: CONTEXT, sir. "Thousand" may indeed be used many ways -- but not in the context of Rev 20. I (TC would likely agree) would say that you don't understand God if you don't understand context.

You are the one who has a problem with a Thousand. You are the one who has never shown Christ's throne upon the earth, not me.

This one is interesting. Larkin says that in the kingdom of God, there will be 1000 definitive generations before we get to eternity! IOW, we only can glimpse the early part of God's eternal plan!!

Instead of accepting it as symbolic you have to make up something.

No, that is not obvious nor necessarily the meaning.

Only because God's promises are ALWAYS LITERALLY fulfilled!

Depends on what the promise is. He has promised me a spiritual body and I expect to get it.

Oh? The world is in chaos instead of peace and BBob says Christ is reigning over it?? BBob, get serious about studying your premises out. The kingdom of God is STILL in us -- not in the world. You are claiming the works of Satan for God and it is a perversion!!

He plainly said His Kingdom is not of this world, It is within the believers. There is only "One" Kingdom of the Lord.

I agree!! But it's the rest of the world that He desires to reign over.

What are you talking about, He owns it all, even the cattle on a thousand hills. It is all the Lord's. He has a Kingdom and a way made for mankind to get into that Kingdom, and that is to "believe" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

This is quite true but you fail to mention that we can only rule spiritually -- through prayer, not through our spoken word. This, indeed, is the weakness of Christianity --- that we don't realize the power we have through the Spirit!! Satan wants to control our spirit. Why? Because the convinced spirit controls the body. Do you realize that if we could convince the world of the law of God, that we WOULD be in control and liteally usher in peace??? But the "god of this world" has convinced them otherwise.

Here you agree that we are already ruling, but we also are not of the world. We were chosen out of the world. You still want to worship literally.

Even you would admit that the warfare is spiritual, Eph 6:11. What if we could "control" physical behavior?" We would be in the MK!! There would still be hypocrites (like you look for) but they would at least obey Christ! Why? Because Christ would rule them, too! But obviously, therefore, we are not in that kingdom now, are we?

Again, you admit that there is a war, that is spiritual.

skypair

So Israel and you say, its either your way or the Highway, right????????

Christ is not looking to rule over the earth, He is not looking but ruling over the believers and His will is that no one would perish, but come under His rule.

That is your problem, you say, yes we are in the Kingdom, then you say, the Kingdom has not come.

Even you would admit that the warfare is spiritual, Eph 6:11

I thought you said every thing God did was literal?

Only because God's promises are ALWAYS LITERALLY fulfilled!

You must not believe we will be sown a natural body, but raised a spiritual. That is not literal. You must not believe that God seeks such to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. You no doubt believe we must still worship in the flesh, and make animal sacrifices. If you believe it is all literal.



BBob,

 

[Outsider]

Originally Posted by skypair
Here's another view for you to contemplate: Adam to Jesus birth was the kingdom of man (notice that prophets and the yet coming Christ were called the "son of man") ---- during Christ's life, the kingdom of Messiah was on earth/"at hand" --- since Christ, we are under the kingdom of the Spirit --- during the trib and MK, Christ's earthly kingdom will be established (the one He delivers up to the Father) --- the last earthly kingdom is the kingdom of God, the perfect, eternal kingdom.

Skypair, this is interesting. Can you provide scripture to show these different kingdoms? You speak of earthly kingdoms (Plural) yet Christ said:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Also, are you saying that the kingdom of heaven (in the gospels) is a completely different kingdom than the kingdom of God (in the gospels)?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Sigh, another post I make every quarter.

The Triune God has AT LEAST three Kingdoms:

1. The spiritual Kingdom of God within each Christian during the Church Age (AKA: age of the Gentiles, times of the Gentiles, etc)

2. The physical Kingdom of God within each person during the Millennial Messanic Kingdom Age.

3. The physical/Spiritual Kingdom of God throughout all the Ages,* World Without End.


* NOTE: these ages follow the Millennial Messanic Kingdom Age.

Look up 'ages' in the KJV or a modern version.

 

[EdSutton]

It really is very simple what I believe TC;

I believe the Kingdom is within God's children. I believe we are living in the last days when it will get worse and worse. There will be wars and rumors of wars, great earthquakes and the love of many will wax cold. I believe it will get so bad that no flesh would be saved except the Lord shorten those days.
I think the time is near, when the sun will turn dark and the moon turn to blood, the stars will fall from Heaven. There will be a darkness such as man has never known. Then the voice of the arch Angel will sound, the trump of God and as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, so shall be the coming of the Son of Man. I believe Jesus will have angels with Him that He will send to the four corners of the earth to gather in all of His children. I believe all the dead shall come forth and Jesus will also have the Lamb's Book of Life and will begin to call the names of His children. They that have the same Spirit that raised Christ, will also raise us from the dead with a body that is incorruptle and can't die. We will already have our souls back and both soul and body will meet the Lord in the air, to forever be with Him. I believe He will deliver us UP to the Father into that Holy City, where we all have a mansion that was built for us. We will be with God and Jesus, the angels and all that have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
I believe when we hear Him call us saying "come ye faithful servant, inherit the home that has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
At that same time, He will tell those who do not have the blood applied to their soul to depart, for I never knew you. They will depart to the Great White Throne, and the wrath of God, where the dead and hell, shall be judged out of the things written in the books. They will be cast into a Lake of Fire along with Satan, the unbelievers, those who maketh abomination and those who make a lie, where the smoke of their torment will ascend upward forever and ever.
I believe then the earth will pass away with a great noise, the elements will burn up with fervant heat and a voice out of Heaven will speak and say it is finished.

The children of God will be with God, in the eternal Heaven where we will rejoice with the angels and sing a new song. I have been redeemed both soul and body. There will never be another tear, nothing but peace and Joy.

Now, I don't think I missed anything.

I beg to differ in the understanding as to whether or not you missed anything. Let's see:
1. The Judgment Seat of Christ. (Rom. 14:10; II Cor. 5:10)
2. The Battle of Armageddon in the Valley Jeezreel, Plain of Esdraelon, or however you choose to term it, where the winepress is trodden, and blood runs to the depth of a horse's bridle for 200 miles, which just 'happens" to be the distance "down" to the Dead Sea, from there. (Joel. Rev.16:16; 14:10, 18-20; 19:11-21, et al.)
3. The 'beast' (Rev. 19:20)
4. The False prophet (Rev. 19:20) Both the beast and false prophet (individuals) are cast alive into the lake of fire. Mind explaining how and why the lake of fire is "literal' and they are not literal individuals? (This 'explanation' should be good!) :applause:
5. The battle against Rosh, Meschach and Tubal, led by Gog of the land of Magog, with the myriad of other nations allied with them. (Ezek. 38,39)
6. The battle of Gog and Magog (Rev. 20:8)
7. One final thing, as I have to get to church. What possible reasoning or Scripture can you come up with as to why that the Great White Throne and the Lake of Fire should be literal, but things seemingly connected with it and in the same book and sometimes even the same chapter should not be taken the same way? Great white throne, Literal; new heavens and new earth? Why would there even be any need or reason for a new earth? For that matter, why a need for a new heaven? Was something wrong with 'the old one', you think maybe??

More later, maybe.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

I beg to differ in the understanding as to whether or not you missed anything. Let's see:
1. The Judgment Seat of Christ. (Rom. 14:10; II Cor. 5:10)

I believe I stated that when we come out of the grave we will either here Him say come or hear Him say depart!!

2. The Battle of Armageddon in the Valley Jeezreel, Plain of Esdraelon, or however you choose to term it, where the winepress is trodden, and blood runs to the depth of a horse's bridle for 200 miles, which just 'happens" to be the distance "down" to the Dead Sea, from there. (Joel. Rev.16:16; 14:10, 18-20; 19:11-21, et al.)

I believe I mentioned the Wrath of God and the Armagedon is I believe the 6 vial of the wrath of God. Anyway it is part of God's wrath.

3. The 'beast' (Rev. 19:20)

I believe I mentioned the GWT judgement.

4. The False prophet (Rev. 19:20) Both the beast and false prophet (individuals) are cast alive into the lake of fire. Mind explaining how and why the lake of fire is "literal' and they are not literal individuals? (This 'explanation' should be good!) :applause:

You or I do not know what kind of bodies they will have, but it will be a body that will never burn up. Also, again I did mention the GWT judgement.
You say the LoF will be literal, I do not know if that is the correct word for it or not, it will be "real" and will be something that man can only imagine, it has never entered our hearts and minds how bad it will be, for we can not comphrehend that with our puny minds. Tell you one thing though, the Lord will see it gets done.

5. The battle against Rosh, Meschach and Tubal, led by Gog of the land of Magog, with the myriad of other nations allied with them. (Ezek. 38,39)

I believe I also mentioned the great tribulations and I believe God's children are in a war now.

6. The battle of Gog and Magog (Rev. 20:8)

see above
7. One final thing, as I have to get to church. What possible reasoning or Scripture can you come up with as to why that the Great White Throne and the Lake of Fire should be literal, but things seemingly connected with it and in the same book and sometimes even the same chapter should not be taken the same way?Great white throne, Literal; new heavens and new earth? Why would there even be any need or reason for a new earth? For that matter, why a need for a new heaven? Was something wrong with 'the old one', you think maybe??

I also have mentioned that the new heaven and the new earth are spiritual. I know I said that we would be raptured "UP". I don't believe in your new earth literal, as I do not believe in your MK.

As far as the LoF being literal, I don't know if you could compare it that way or not. It will be something never known to man, for it will be a fire that will burn forever and those in it will burn but never die.

More later, maybe.

Ed

Ed

Feel free to ask anything. I don't believe in your long long time of living on earth, destruction on earth. I believe it will be a quick work the Lord will do.

I believe what Jesus said about the matter:

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Fit all of your wars, new earth, armigaddon, etc in how the Lord said it would be.


BTW; are you going to be planted in this earth, but raised in the "new" one???

BBob,

Futurists make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made -- they were not satisfied with a spiritual

kingdom; they had to have a literal, worldly, physical kingdom.

Not one of you has given scripture where Christ will reign in the MK "on Earth", not one, still waiting.

 

[Outsider]

Sigh, another post I make every quarter.

The Triune God has AT LEAST three Kingdoms:

Sorry to be the burden this quarter, but surely you can understand the confusion. You are saying there are 3 kingdoms of God, another is saying there are 4 earthly kingdoms, but I can only find where Christ spoke of one.

1. The spiritual Kingdom of God within each Christian during the Church Age (AKA: age of the Gentiles, times of the Gentiles, etc)

2. The physical Kingdom of God within each person during the Millennial Messanic Kingdom Age.

3. The physical/Spiritual Kingdom of God throughout all the Ages,* World Without End.

I hate to be a further burden, but if you could provide me with the texts that say this, I would appreciate it. I would like to do more study on the matter.

You did not specify on the 3rd (Physical/Spiritual) kingdom, but the other two you mentioned that God's kingdom (Spiritual and physical) are within us. So I take it that you agree that the kingdom is within us?

 

[TCGreek]

"1000 Year Reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture? Nor the word "millenium"? The "1000 year reign of Christ" is fiction according to Scripture, which has no substance. It is born and bred from the doctrines of man, not from the Holy Scripture.

The "thousand year reign" appears nowhere in the sixty-six books, except in this one passage where it occurs six times in six consecutive verses (Revelation 20:3-8). It is not solid study to build an entire system of beliefs about the end of the age and the status of the kingdom on such a highly symbolic passage. More especially when that interpretation conflicts with other plain passages of scripture.

Revelation 20:3-8 is the only passage in the entire scriptures that the so-called premillinialists have as the basis for the "1000 year reign." First, it should be pointed out that scripture does not speak of "the thousand year reign of Christ." Revelation 20:4 says, "...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." It is the souls of those who were killed for God's sake that reign with Christ 1000 years.

Only one OT Scripture speaks of the birth of the Messiah in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2).

Should we dismiss Matthew 2:6 as an interpolation by some deluded scribe of the 7th century A.D., because it's based on one text in the OT?

I believe we should, because of your criterion.

 

[Brother Bob]

Only one OT Scripture speaks of the birth of the Messiah in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2).

Should we dismiss Matthew 2:6 as an interpolation by some deluded scribe of the 7th century A.D., because it's based on one text in the OT?

I believe we should, because of your criterion.

Micah 5:1-2 (NIV) Marshal your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod. 2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Isaiah 11:2 (NIV) The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD--

Isaiah 9:5-7 (NIV) Every warrior's boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 (NIV) "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.

Deuteronomy 18:15 (NIV) The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.

Deuteronomy 18:18 (NIV) I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

Psalms 110:4 (NIV) The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."

Genesis 49:10 (NIV) The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.

2 Samuel 7:12-16 (NIV) When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me ; your throne will be established forever.'"

Psalms 89:3-4 (NIV) You said, "I have made a covenant with my chosen one, I have sworn to David my servant, 4 'I will establish your line forever and make your throne firm through all generations.'" Selah

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

Micah 5:1-2 (NIV) Marshal your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod. 2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Isaiah 11:2 (NIV) The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD--

Isaiah 9:5-7 (NIV) Every warrior's boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 (NIV) "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.

Deuteronomy 18:15 (NIV) The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.

Deuteronomy 18:18 (NIV) I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

Psalms 110:4 (NIV) The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."

Genesis 49:10 (NIV) The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.

2 Samuel 7:12-16 (NIV) When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me ; your throne will be established forever.'"

Psalms 89:3-4 (NIV) You said, "I have made a covenant with my chosen one, I have sworn to David my servant, 4 'I will establish your line forever and make your throne firm through all generations.'" Selah

BBob,

Bethlehem is only mentioned in Micah 5:2.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I beg to differ in the understanding as to whether or not you missed anything. Let's see:
1. The Judgment Seat of Christ. (Rom. 14:10; II Cor. 5:10)
2. The Battle of Armageddon in the Valley Jeezreel, Plain of Esdraelon, or however you choose to term it, where the winepress is trodden, and blood runs to the depth of a horse's bridle for 200 miles, which just 'happens" to be the distance "down" to the Dead Sea, from there. (Joel. Rev.16:16; 14:10, 18-20; 19:11-21, et al.)
3. The 'beast' (Rev. 19:20)
4. The False prophet (Rev. 19:20) Both the beast and false prophet (individuals) are cast alive into the lake of fire. Mind explaining how and why the lake of fire is "literal' and they are not literal individuals? (This 'explanation' should be good!) :applause:
5. The battle against Rosh, Meschach and Tubal, led by Gog of the land of Magog, with the myriad of other nations allied with them. (Ezek. 38,39)
6. The battle of Gog and Magog (Rev. 20:8)
7. One final thing, as I have to get to church. What possible reasoning or Scripture can you come up with as to why that the Great White Throne and the Lake of Fire should be literal, but things seemingly connected with it and in the same book and sometimes even the same chapter should not be taken the same way? Great white throne, Literal; new heavens and new earth? Why would there even be any need or reason for a new earth? For that matter, why a need for a new heaven? Was something wrong with 'the old one', you think maybe??

More later, maybe.

Ed

Yep Brother Ed, that sure is a big COMMA in 2 Peter 3:10 :laugh:

2 Peter 3:10-11 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):

But the day of the Lord will come as a thiefe in the night, in the which the heauens shall passe away with a noyse, and the elements shall melt with heate, and the earth with the workes that are therein, shalbe burnt vp.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing therefore that all these thinges must be dissolued, what maner persons ought ye to be in holy conuersation and godlinesse,

As always, the prophecy is written to encourage and edify us into living more Godly lives.

Look up 'summary' in your English book.

 

[Ed Edwards]

1. The spiritual Kingdom of God within each Christian during the Church Age (AKA: age of the Gentiles, times of the Gentiles, etc)

2. The physical Kingdom of God within each person during the Millennial Messanic Kingdom Age.

3. The physical/Spiritual Kingdom of God throughout all the Ages,* World Without End.

BTW, my list of three does not preclude other 'Kingdom of God's that might be described in the Bible.

Outsider: //I hate to be a further burden, but if you could provide me with the texts that say this, I would appreciate it. I would like to do more study on the matter.//

I use the same verses that Brother Bob uses to prove there is one and only one Kingdom of God. But nowhere in those verses does it ever say 'there is one and only one Kingdom of God ever in the Universe God created.'

Outsider: //So I take it that you agree that the kingdom is within us?//

I see more than one person has problems with 'summary'. Hello! I've studied the Kingdom of God for years and when I explaine all I know I get zapped for being complicated. Go study for yourself like all good Baptists do.

E-sword.com has a good search engine (I like it cause I can even search the Bible with no internet access) except it doesn't do strings of words good. For example "Kingdom of God" in Google will give you only occurance of "Kingdom of God". But e-Sword will give you ever verse where 'kingdom', 'of', and 'God' appear.

Here is a word study on "Day of the Lord" from the HCSB:
-------------------------------------------------
Word study day of the Lord and related phrases:


I: 27 each day of the Lord found:

Isa 13:6 (HCSB): Wail! For the day of the Lord is near.
It will come like destruction from the Almighty.

Isa 13:9 (HCSB): Look, the day of the Lord is coming-
cruel, with rage and burning anger-
to make the earth a desolation
and to destroy the sinners on it.

La 2:22 (HCSB): You summoned my attackers on every side,
as if [for] an appointed festival day;
on the day of the Lord's anger
no one escaped or survived.
My enemy has destroyed
those I nurtured and reared.

Eze 7:19 (HCSB): They will throw their silver into the streets,
and their gold will seem like something filthy.
Their silver and gold will be unable to save them
in the day of the Lord's wrath.
They will not satisfy their appetites
or fill their stomachs,
for these were the stumbling blocks
that brought about their iniquity.

Eze 13:5 (HCSB): You did not go up to the gaps or restore
the wall around the house of Israel so that it might stand in battle
on the day of the Lord.

Ho 9:5 (HCSB): What will you do on a festival day,
on the day of the Lord's feast?

Joe 1:15 (HCSB): Woe because of that day!
For the day of the Lord is near
and will come as devastation from the Almighty.

Joe 2:1 (HCSB): Blow the horn in Zion;
sound the alarm on My holy mountain!
Let all the residents of the land tremble,
for the day of the Lord is coming;
in fact, it is near-

Joe 2:11 (HCSB): The Lord raises His voice
in the presence of His army.
His camp is very large;
Those who carry out His command are powerful.
Indeed, the day of the Lord is terrible and dreadful -
who can endure it?

Joe 2:31 (HCSB): The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the great and awe inspiring day of the Lord comes.

Joe 3:14 (HCSB): Multitudes, multitudes
in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near
in the valley of decision.

Am 5:18 (HCSB): Woe to you who long for the day of the Lord!
What will the day of the Lord be for you?
It will be darkness and not light.

Am 5:20 (HCSB): Won't the day of the Lord
be darkness rather than light,
even gloom without any brightness in it?

Ob 1:15 (HCSB): For the day of the Lord is near,
against all the nations.
As you have done, so it will be done to you;
what you deserve will return on your own head.

Zep 1:7 (HCSB): Be silent in the presence of the Lord God,
for the day of the Lord is near.
Indeed, the Lord has prepared a sacrifice;
He has consecrated His guests.

Zep 1:8 (HCSB): On the day of the Lord's sacrifice
I will punish the officials, the king's sons,
and all who are dressed in foreign clothing.

Zep 1:14 (HCSB): The great day of the Lord is near,
near and rapidly approaching.
Listen, the day of the Lord-
there the warrior's cry is bitter.

Zep 1:18 (HCSB): Their silver and their gold
will not be able to rescue them
on the day of the Lord's wrath.
The whole earth will be consumed
by the fire of His jealousy.
For He will make a complete,
yes, a horrifying end
of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Zep 2:2 (HCSB): before the decree takes effect
and the day passes like chaff,
before the burning of the Lord's anger overtakes you,
before the day of the Lord's anger overtakes you.

Zep 2:3 (HCSB): Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth,
who carry out what He commands.
Seek righteousness, seek humility;
perhaps you will be concealed
on the day of the Lord's anger.

Zec 14:1 (HCSB): A day of the Lord is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence.

Mal 4:5 (HCSB): Look, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Ac 2:20 (HCSB): The sun will be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and remarkable day of the Lord comes;

1Co 5:5 (HCSB): turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:2 (HCSB): For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

2Th 2:2 (HCSB): not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.

2Pe 3:10 (HCSB): But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; on that day the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.


II: 3 each day of Christ found:

Php 1:6 (HCSB): I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Php 1:10 (HCSB): so that you can determine what really matters and can be pure and blameless in the day of Christ,

Php 2:16 (HCSB): Hold firmly the message of life. Then I can boast in the day of Christ that I didn't run in vain or labor for nothing.


III: 3 each day of God found:

Job 20:28 (HCSB): The possessions in his house will be removed,
flowing away on the day of God's anger.

2Pe 3:12 (HCSB): as you wait for and earnestly desire the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be on fire and be dissolved, and the elements will melt with the heat.

Re 16:14 (HCSB): For they are spirits of demons performing signs, who travel to the kings of the whole world to assemble them for the battle of the great day of God, the Almighty.


IV: 7 each day of judgment found:

Mt 10:15 (HCSB): I assure you: It will be more tolerable
on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

Mt 11:22 (HCSB): But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.

Mt 11:24 (HCSB): But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

Mt 12:36 (HCSB): I tell you that on the day of judgment people will have to account for every careless word they speak.

2Pe 2:9 (HCSB): then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

2Pe 3:7 (HCSB): But by the same word the present heavens and earth are held in store for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

1Jo 4:17 (HCSB): In this, love is perfected with us so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; for we are as He is in this world.

--------------------------------------

What do you think 'Day of the Lord' means?

IMHO, 'Day of the Lord' means any period of time when God personally intervenes in the affairs of mankind.

So the literal 1,000-year-long Messianic Kingdom is one of the many "Day of the Lord"s found in the Bible..

 

[Ed Edwards]

Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 version:

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The Holy Spirit hasn't shown me a lot more than is
here. I do know the Greek word being translated here
as 'dispensation' is the Greek word from which we get
'economy'.

I do know (IN SUMMARY OF THE BIBLE off the top of my head) that this is what the economy of God is like:

Bible Prophetic times:
'hour' = the appropriate time
'day' = the appropriate time
or '1 day' = 1,000 years
'½-week' = 3½-years
'1 day' = 'week' = 7 years
'month' = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

Other 'economy of God facts':

the blind see
the dead live
the deaf hear
the lame leap like deer
the first is last
the last is first
Jesus Saves (totally!)
God Rules!!

Frequently the Bible discusses:

What is to be is discussed in either
present tense (is done) or past tense
(done already done).

 

[Ed Edwards]

This is based on the studies of Ed NOT Ed's studies of the Bible.

But there is truth NOT IN THE BIBLE (shock, eh )

------------------------
There are four possible Basic Approaches
to Prophecy. All of them are believed by some
Christians:

Preterism (past)
Historicism (now)
Futurism (future)
Idealism (timeless)

Preterism - the Tribulation Period has already taken place.

Historicism - the Tribulation Period started in
the 4th century (301-400AD) in events pertaining
to Constantine & his Christianization of the Roman Empire
and continues until the Second Coming.

Fururism - most prophetic events will take
place in the future especially: Tribulation Period,
Second Coming, & Millinnial Messanic
Kingdom.

Idealism - there is no specific timing for events,
the prophecies of the New Testament are to
be understood spiritually (they are still Literal & REAL)
not physically.

There are three basic relationships between the
Millennial Messanic Kingdom and the Second Coming
of Messiah Jesus:

a-mill
pre-mill
post-mill

a-mill - 'no mill' - the millinnial Messanic Kingdom
is to be interpeted real, literal, and spiritual

pre-mill - the physical Second Coming of Messiah Jesus
will be before the physical Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

post-mill - mankind will set up a physical Millennial Messanic Kingdom
worth of Christ who will then have His Second Coming

Preterism (past) can lead only to:
a-mill
post-mill
(it cannot lead to pre-mill because the Millennium
hasn't happened yet)

Historicism (now) can lead to all three x-mills
a-mill
pre-mill
post-mill

Futurism (future) and only be:
pre-mill
post-mill
(if you are a-mill then likely you are Idealistic or Peteristic)

Idealism (timeless) can only be:
a-mill - the millennial Kingdom is within (spiritual), so is the second coming)
post-mill - the millennial Kingdom is within (spiritual), but the second coming is physical
(pre-mill cannot be because it calls for a physical
Millennial Messanic Kingdeom and a physical Second
Coming)


--------------------------------------

 

[Ed Edwards]

1Th 4:16-18 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For the Lord himselfe shall descende from heauen with a shoute, and with the voyce of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then shall we which liue and remaine, be caught vp with them also in the clouds, to meete the Lord in the ayre: and so shall we euer be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore, comfort your selues one another with these wordes.

Where is my comfort that you are
supposed to get me which is COMMANDed
to you in 1 Thess 4:18?

What then is the Bible talking about
when it says these things (items of
interest bolded & in all caps)?

1 Thess 4:17 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Then shall we which liue and remaine,
be CAUGHT VP with them also in the clouds,
to meete the Lord in the ayre:
and so shall we euer be with the Lord.

2 Thess 2:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the comming
of our Lord Iesus Christ, and
by OUR ASSEMBLING VNTO HIM,
2 That ye be not suddenly mooued from
your minde, nor troubled neither by spirit,
nor by worde, nor by letter, as it were from vs,
as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come, except there
come a DEPARTING FIRST, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne
of perdition,

Titus 2:13 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Looking for that BLESSED HOPE,
and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God,
and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ,

Mat 24:31 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And he shall send his Angels with
a great sound of a trumpet, and
they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT
from the foure windes, and from the one ende of the heauens vnto the other.

1Co 16:22 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
If any man loue not the Lord Iesus Christ,
let him be had in execration MARAN-ATHA.

1 Corinthians 16:22 (TNIV = Today's New
International Version):
If anyone does not love the Lord,
let that person be cursed! COME LORD!

Joh 14:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Let not your heart be troubled: ye beleeue in God,
beleeue also in me.
2 In my Fathers house are many dwelling places:
if it were not so, I would haue tolde you:
I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go to prepare a place
for you, I wil come againe,
and RECEIVE YOU VNTO MY SELFE,
that where I am, there may ye be also.

Ed redefines 'rapture2' with some Scripture
terms:

rapture2 n. -
1. the pretribulation event where Jesus
performs a resurrection1 followed
closely by a rapture1
2a CAUGHT VP;
2b OUR ASSEMBLING VNTO HIM,
-- and DEPARTING;
2c BLESSED HOPE;
2d GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT;
2e MARAN-ATHA;
2f COME LORD!;
2g RECEIVE YOU VNTO MY SELFE;
2h and HOPE THAT IS WITHIN YOU

Caveat: I reserve the right to add to this definition
as I find other supporting scriptures. These
were just the ones on the top of my mind
tonight.

Sorry, my HOPE is NOT even closely threatened
by sombody grabbing my word 'rapture'.

And I have fulfilled the COMMAND OF JESUS:

1 Peter 3:15-16 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
But sanctifie the Lord God in your hearts:
and be ready alwayes to giue an answere
to euery man that asketh you a reason of the
HOPE THAT IS WITHIN YOU,
with meekenesse and reuerence,