Unfinished Business

[standingfirminChrist]

Baptist Believer, the Bible shows us there was refridgeration in those days.

Matthew 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

If there was no type of refridgeration, the water would not be cold.

The fact is, wells and rivers were used for refridgeration of grape juices to prevent their becoming fermented. Besides cold storage in deep water, there were 3 other methods of preventing fermentation. History records this... look it up.

 

[Linda64]

From The Bible and Wine by the late Bruce Lackey:

4. The making of alcoholic beverages is not a strictly natural process. Years ago I took for granted that if you took the juice of a grape and let it alone, not refrigerating it, it would automatically, in time, turn into alcoholic wine. There are several reasons why this is not true. It takes more than time to make wine. Sometimes people try to defend its use by saying that it must be good because God made it. But, the fact is, God did not make it. Man has learned how to make alcoholic liquors through processes that he has invented. Wine-makers know that one must have the correct amount of water, sugar, and temperature to make wine. Keeping grape juice in a refrigerator would prevent if from fermenting, because the temperature is not right. Likewise, hot, tropical temperature would prevent fermentation.

In ancient days, before we had refrigeration and vacuum-sealing ability, people learned to preserve the juice of the grape without turning it into alcoholic wine. Many people boiled it down into a thick syrup. By doing so, they could preserve it for long periods of time. When they got ready to drink it, they would simply add the water to the consistency desired, in much the same way that we take frozen concentrates and add water. In Bible days, contrary to what many believe, it was not necessary for everyone to drink alcoholic wine as a table beverage.

I recommend the book entitled Bible Wines and the Laws of Fermentation by William Patton (Challenge Press, Little Rock, Arkansas). More than a hundred years ago, this preacher was the only one in his town who believed in total abstinence. He saw that it was necessary to make an extensive study to see what scripture taught. This book is the result of that labor and is the very best thing I have read on the subject.

[Editor: One point of Patton's book is that the making of alcoholic wine requires input from man. It requires the addition of certain additives (though it might be something as simple as sugar) and the control of temperature, etc. The natural processes alone will produce fermentation under certain conditions, but these natural processes, if unaided by man, rapidly move to a vinegar state. The alcoholic beverages industry is very much a man-made thing. Natural process are PERVERTED by man.]

 

[Linda64]

But the fresh grape juice inevitably became fermented very quickly. Therefore, the “wine” discussed here is pressed grape juice that rapidly ferments unless refrigerated. Since they did not have refrigeration, the implication is that the Hebrews fermented the grape juice in a controlled process to make alcoholic wine. Otherwise the juice would be ruined and lost.


Unless they had an oil well on their property, the oil God is talking about was created through a process of pressing oil bearing crops, such as olives. Therefore, God is not literally talking about unprocessed crops, but processed crops.


Same issue as above. Except that the wine is probably already fermented at this time. This offering was performed after the work of the harvest has been completed.


I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here. This verse makes a distinction between grapes and wine. If you are trying to point out that the equipment was named a “wine press”, I submit to you that we call places winerys even though they have fresh grapes in the vine, grape juice in the presses and fermented alcoholic wine in bottles because the product they are creating is alcoholic wine.


Yes, new wine is wine that has not yet aged properly. It is a picture of plenty because it is stored up for the future when it will be probably fermented.


Lack of wine is a sign of the disfavor of God.


I don’t get your point. If you want wine, you have to start with grapes. Unless you have a cluster of grapes, you won’t have grape wine at all.


This does not “prove” anything about ‘wine’ being grape juice... Unless you are already predisposed to believing that Christians never drank alcoholic wine.


That’s an assertion without evidence. I strongly disagree.


This is another assertion without evidence.


Like the “strong drink” that God commends?

Deuteronomy 14:24-26 (King James Version)

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household...

If you believe what the Bible teaches, you must admit that God commends the moderate use of “strong drink”.

And if you have enough faith to accept what God instructs there, then your whole argument falls apart.


Because God allows it, Jesus demonstrated it, and the church has practiced it consistently for most of 2000 years.

What is your biblical justification for condemning what God has said is a blessing?

I am not condemning that which God has blessed. God has NEVER blessed "fermented/alcoholic" wine. Where is your Scripture where God has blessed which God condemns?

I was married to a winebibber/drunk for almost 20 years and I have seen what alcohol does to a person's mind, body and spirit. This "poison" killed my husband 7 years ago. And you say God has "blessed" this "poison"? I find that hard to believe. I found that hard to believe while I was married to this man, so I did a Bible study about Christians drinking alcohol. At the beginning of my Christian walk, I believed what Christians said about drinking alcohol "in moderation"...and my late husband also believed it too. I found out that drinking "in moderation" is a joke! The "joke" was on my late husband because drinking "in moderation" is the biggest deception ever.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Deuteronomy 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

The word "wine" in today's English always means "fermented/alcoholic". The wine which is drunk today is NOT the same as the wine of biblical times.

This is another assertion without evidence.

The "evidence" is all around you...if you care to look.

 

[dan e.]

I was married to a winebibber/drunk for almost 20 years and I have seen what alcohol does to a person's mind, body and spirit. This "poison" killed my husband 7 years ago. And you say God has "blessed" this "poison"? I find that hard to believe.

This is the difference a lot of times. It is difficult, and rightfully so, for many who have been in situations where they've seen the effects of abused alcohol to accept drinking in moderation.

I think those of us who disagree with totally abstaining should be extra sensitive to this; even to the extent that we wouldn't dare bring out a drink around someone like this. I'm sure none of us would.

However, the other side should also show an understanding for people's convictions and interpretations of Scripture that do not contradict the core beliefs of Christianity. It is difficult for either side to show sensitivity sometimes....as is demonstrated in this thread.

 

[annsni]

Grape juice has to go through a process that includes adding sugar and yeast, then sealing it airproof for some time, to make it into alcoholic wine. It's not like you can just leave the juice sitting around and it will become alcoholic. It will just spoil in that case. And its also very easy to make juice and seal it so that it will not spoil or ferment, no matter how long it sits.

love,

Sopranette

I'm sorry but this is completely incorrect. Sugar and yeast are not added to wine but natural components of wine. As a matter of fact, the yeast does it's work then dies in wine and thus it is wine that does not contain yeast and grape juice does (unless it is boiled and the yeast is killed). Please do proper research on this subject before you post incorrect informaiton.

 

[preachinjesus]

:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

oy...

 

[Sopranette]

There is no natural "good" yeast in juice. It must be added, with sugar, sealed, then placed in a warmish, dark place. You don't have to add sugar, but most grapes used for wine are not that sweet naturally. Making wine does not happen naturally...it's a man made endevour.

http://www.crfg.org/tidbits/makewine.html

Sopranette

 

[standingfirminChrist]

looks like something is added in all those recipes... man's intervention at play again.

There is not a wine-making process today that doesn't require man's intervention at some time in the process.

 

[faith.hope.love]

I'm guessing that "wine" back then was probably a LOT different than wine today. If Jesus did drink any, I really bet it wasn't the same as what we consider wine.

As far as people who drink... I do not think it is a sin to have a glass of wine, but I do think it is a sin to get drunk. I myself am not really into drinking... I rarely ever drink. I actually think wine tastes horrible, but that's just me. My husband and my parents like wine. I'm okay with it as long as no one gets drunk.

Now if someone gives me a verse that condemns drinking wine (even when not getting drunk), I think my viewpoint would change!

:godisgood:

 

[annsni]

There is no natural "good" yeast in juice. It must be added, with sugar, sealed, then placed in a warmish, dark place. You don't have to add sugar, but most grapes used for wine are not that sweet naturally. Making wine does not happen naturally...it's a man made endevour.

http://www.crfg.org/tidbits/makewine.html

Sopranette

None of those are grape wine. Grapes have a natural yeast on the skins and that is how the wine is made - using the skins. There is nothing added to true wine to produce wine - just time and temperature.

 

[Joe]

Grape juice has to go through a process that includes adding sugar and yeast, then sealing it airproof for some time, to make it into alcoholic wine. It's not like you can just leave the juice sitting around and it will become alcoholic. It will just spoil in that case. And its also very easy to make juice and seal it so that it will not spoil or ferment, no matter how long it sits.

love,

Sopranette

According to a guy I just called who owns a winery, you are correct Sopranette in over 90% of the instances. But there are rare instances....

I just called a guy who owns a vineyard. He could only talk a moment, he is not a Christian but says "he has studied it". One or two christians called him to ask how wine is made.

He feels the Bible reads as if referring to two different types of drink, one fermented (strong drink) and one non fermented (of the vine, the good wine).

He says the natural fermenting process happens rarely, but it does happen. Consider it "by accident". He says alcoholic wine was around back then, no doubt, but occuring naturally, it was very rare and very scarce.

Unfortunately, I couldn't figure out what he meant when he said "if yeast is around the grapes outside" then natural fermentation occurs. . Otherwise, we add yeast which is almost 100% of the time" He says it can happen with apples too, if yeast is around them while they are growing outside they become alcoholic.

Again, he is not a Christian but says it's obvious from all of the warnings in the Bible that the Lord doesn't want us to drink fermented alcohol, except for medicinal purposes. Then he cited the instance with paul recommending it to another for his stomach ailements.
He says naturally fermented grapes (wine) now, and back in the biblical times, has about 1/2 the alcohol content of our current wine. He then laughed and said some people tell themselves drinking a glass of wine is ok, and in moderation because they don't feel drunk.
He feels, according to the bible, they would be considered "drunk" by God. Then said, "Lucky I am not a Christian"
He wants to study it further, so I told him we would talk later. I am sure he would meet with me, we had fun talking. So I will call again, and ask him a question, he offered to talk another time when he didn't need to run. Hoping this leads to something bigger He sounds like a non-drinker, or only drinks wine because of his business. He certainly doesn't talk of alcohol in a favorable light. Even says it's not needed for medicinal uses, as certain types of grape juice provide the same health benefits the doctors are citing. Sounds like Doctors are sending their patients to him, and he is selling them grape juice instead of wine.

He said he is not a Christian, yet says the Lord doesn't want "us" to drink alcoholic wine, and that's obvious from the loads of the sexual sin examples the bible offers. He used the word "us" twice, that's encouraging. He said" he is lucky to not to be a Christian because he owns a winery". He believes he would need to give up his business to become a Christian.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I'm guessing that "wine" back then was probably a LOT different than wine today. If Jesus did drink any, I really bet it wasn't the same as what we consider wine.

As far as people who drink... I do not think it is a sin to have a glass of wine, but I do think it is a sin to get drunk. I myself am not really into drinking... I rarely ever drink. I actually think wine tastes horrible, but that's just me. My husband and my parents like wine. I'm okay with it as long as no one gets drunk.

Now if someone gives me a verse that condemns drinking wine (even when not getting drunk), I think my viewpoint would change!

:godisgood:

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

A clear command to stay away from fermented beverage. Notice it does not say "Once you have had a glass, look not upon the wine..." Moderation is not even implied or condoned here in the least.

Look not upon it when it is fermented. The Hebrew for 'Look not thou' is translated as 'Do not approve of; do not consider; do not have any experience with (if you have even a swallow of it, you have had experience with it), etc.)

No matter how many want to justify a glass of alochol, God's Word states, 'Look thou not.'

 

[Sopranette]

Thank you, Joe. You beat me to the punch! What your friend said about yeast makes sense. There is a certain amount of yeast in our enviroment naturally. This is wild yeast, and can destroy a "good" batch of wine. It gets on the fruit when insects land on it, depositing a certain number of microscopic "bugs".

love,

Sopranette

 

[mcdirector]

I have posted these sermons by John MacArthur before on Drinking.

part of an old thread.

 

[Joe]

Great link mc


Imo, another angle is not only are we judged for deliberately drinking intoxicating beverages (for non-medicinal uses), those will be judged which promote something the Bible forbids.

The Bible even goes so far as to refer to these people as false teachers. I am not saying the Christians here on the BB are doing so, so please BBer's, do not cut & paste that sentence only. I am saying as the facts are presented and unavoidable, it is certainly risky. Anyone can open a phone book and call a vineyard, then ask for the owner.

Micah 2:11 - Israelites are eager to follow false teachers who prophesy plenty of intoxicating drinks.

Habakkuk 2:15 (KJV)
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

Promoting alcohol on a public message board, and convincing people prone to alcoholism that drinking is ok, could certainly lead to one's drunkeness. Therefore, it's sin concerning this verse in Habaakkuk. I pray no one reading the BB will be deterred thus become drunk, and other's will not be judged for it. It is a self-administered testing process" to determine how much alcohol our system can handle without feeling intoxicated, and sadly, many may find out the results.

 

[saturneptune]

A pox on both sides. If there was as much time spent witnessing to the lost as there is flapping jaws about who is wrong and right in the alcohol debate, the churches would be packed.

Both sides miss the point. Both sides ad nauseum print out facts, figures, and verses. Great debate if you are a Pharisee. Its a Holy Spirit guiding my life and faith issue.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

A pox on both sides. If there was as much time spent witnessing to the lost as there is flapping jaws about who is wrong and right in the alcohol debate, the churches would be packed.

Both sides miss the point. Both sides ad nauseum print out facts, figures, and verses. Great debate if you are a Pharisee. Its a Holy Spirit guiding my life and faith issue.

Great! Then you gave up the idea that drinking in moderation is approved by God?

 

[saturneptune]

Great! Then you gave up the idea that drinking in moderation is approved by God?

No I did not, I never had it, and that sir, is where you miss the whole point. The Holy Spirit in my life through faith and reading Scripture like Romans 12:1 (not the ones you cited over and over), the witness to others and the like have lead me not to drink, not memorizing a bunch of rules. If I had to guess, if you want to measure the totality of our lives. would you care to guess who has drank less?

 

[Joe]

Come on now you all, the conversation is heading downward. It doesn't matter who drank what, how much, what happened when they did, it's alright. As brothers, we can agree our sins to this point are forgiven and covered through his blood. Then no one will throw up over this :laugh:

 

[saturneptune]

Come on now you all, the conversation is heading downward. It doesn't matter who drank what, how much, what happened when they did, it's alright. As brothers, we can agree our sins to this point are forgiven and covered through his blood as Christians. Then no one will throw up over this :laugh:

I think the conversation is already headed downhill by both sides giving a thesis on their view of fermentation.