Unfinished Business

[standingfirminChrist]

That's what I suspected. How did they preserve the juice 2000 years ago? I haven't ever participated in an alcohol thread and haven't read a whole lot of this one, so forgive me if you have already posted something about it.

Historians from the times of the Apostles and even before Christ record that wine in its unfermented state was preserved by at least 4 methods.

1. Put the wine in an airtight container and submerse in cold water such as a well or river.

2. Boiling the wine (the fermentation is arrested at 176° F) down to a syrup consistancy. When the wine was required, they could add cold water to the syrup making it drinkable and non fermented.

3. By separating the gluten from the juice by means of filtration or subsistence.

and there is another I cannot remember right off.

Linda and I successfully made a non alcoholic wine by means of the 2nd and 3rd means and storing it in an airtight container. We have had our homemade wine since July 2007.

How do we know it is not alcoholic? For one thing, it freezes solid when we put it in the freezer.

Alcohol does not freeze until the temperature reaches around -100° C.

The average home freezer reaches temps of about -10° C.

 

[Amy.G]

I was just reading an article about the preservation of grapes in ancient times. According to this article, they would cut the grape vines with grapes intact and dip the cut branch in hot pitch and then store them in jars packed with chaff. When they wanted juice, they would pick the grapes and squeeze themselves fresh grapejuice.

The article was something that came up when I googled it.
Here it is, if anyone is interested.

The Preservation of Grapes. Several methods were used for preserving grapes fresh. One of them consisted in cutting the grapes with lengthy branches and sealing the cut with pitch. The grapes were then placed in vessels filled with dry chaff. "In order that the grapes may remain green for as much as a year," Columella explains, "you will keep them in the following manner. When you have cut from the vine grapes . . . , immediately treat their pedicles with hard pitch; then fill a new earthenware pan with the driest possible chaff, which has been sifted that it may be free from dust, and put the grapes upon it. Then cover it with another pan and daub it around with clay mixed with chaff, and then, after arranging the pans in a very dry loft, cover them with dry chaff.

Link: http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/3.html

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Bitsy beat ya to posting that site earlier, Amy. But it is a great site for info on preservation of grape juice with solid references. Thanx for echoing the history that we all should be aware of.

Of course, there are still many who will not believe history.

 

[Amy.G]

Bitsy beat ya to posting that site earlier, Amy. But it is a great site for info on preservation of grape juice with solid references. Thanx for echoing the history that we all should be aware of.

Of course, there are still many who will not believe history.

Oops. :laugh:

Told ya I hadn't read all of this thread.

 

[Amy.G]

Ok. Next question. There was obviously alcoholic wine used in Bible times, because people did get drunk, so they must have made it with that purpose in mind, since it would not just turn to wine on it's own (without molding or turning to vinegar). Did they make it similar to how it's made today? Which I don't have a clue how it's done. :laugh:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

While history, and the Bible as well, records that alcoholic wine was made, I have not found the method that was used to produce that wine.

 

[Dale-c]

Amy, read the wikipedia article on the topic.
It is very interesting.

Grapes are naturally made to make wine.
No other friut to my knowledge is.

Now, the process is still guided to make GOOD wine but it is obviously designed by God.

Wine is an alcoholic beverage made from fermentation of grape juice.[1] The natural chemical balance of grapes is such that they can ferment without the addition of sugars, acids, enzymes or other nutrients.[2] Although other fruits like apples and berries can also be fermented, the resultant "wines" are normally named after the fruit from which they are produced (for example, apple wine or elderberry wine) and are generically known as fruit or country wine.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Wikipedia is the lousiest way to find out information. Anybody can go in there and edit anything to say anything.

Not a reliable source at all.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

For instance, I just went in that page on wikipedia and inserted at the beginning Wine can be non alcoholic... and gave reference to the link Amy G and Bitsy provided.

Someone else could go back in and edit that out or add more.

That shows that wikipedia is not reliable at all.

And, as I suspected would happen, someone went in and changed the article to an all alcoholic wine article.

Anyone can add or remove anything in there.

 

[Joe]

Amy, read the wikipedia article on the topic.
It is very interesting.

Grapes are naturally made to make wine.
No other friut to my knowledge is.

Now, the process is still guided to make GOOD wine but it is obviously designed by God.

Yes, this wikipedia entry contradicts yours Dale. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeast It speaks of wine, beer and yeast.
It states Yeast is required in the fermentation process, and yeast only grows under certain temperatures.

According to the vineyard owner I spoke with earlier, rarely, but sometimes, there is yeast present outside with the fruit which allows the fermentation process to naturally take place.
Yeast is sensitive to enviornmental temperatures. This may explain why natural fermentation is a rare occurance. Why most often when the bible speaks of wine, two different types of wine, it is usually referring to non-fermented.

Alcoholic beverages
Alcoholic beverages are loosely defined as a beverage that contains ethanol (CH3CH2OH). This ethanol is almost always produced by fermentation - the metabolism of carbohydrates by certain species of yeast. Beverages such as wine, beer, or distilled spirits all use yeast at some stage of their production.
Yeasts will grow over a temperature range of 10°-37°C, with optimum temperature in the range of 30°-37°C, depending on the species. S. cerevisiae works best at about 30°C. There is little activity in the range of 0°-10°C. Above 37°C yeast cells become stressed and will not divide properly. Most yeast cells die above 50°C

 

[tinytim]

Ok, suppose we grant you that "wine" in this verse refers to non alcoholic..
What does strong drink refer to, and why did they have permission to buy it?
Deu 14:26
(26) And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,



How did the Corinthians get drunk while drinking grape juice at communion?
1Co 11:20-21
(20) When ye come together therefore into one place, [this] is not to eat the Lord's supper.
(21) For in eating every one taketh before [other] his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.


And in Timothy, why were the bishops not to be given to wine, but the deacons to MUCH wine? Was it common for deacons to like grape juice?

1Ti 3:3
(3) Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:8
(8) Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

 

[Amy.G]

I've been reading a few articles on how to make wine, and according to everything I've read so far, yeast has to be added to the juice in order for it to ferment into wine. Otherwise, it will turn to vinegar.
What I'm learning so far is that alcoholic wine in Bible times must have been "made". It didn't occur naturally.

 

[Dale-c]

Amy, I am not expert but it is my understanding that yeast grows naturally on grapes but most winemakers control the process by adding yeast to get more consistent results.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

How did the Corinthians get drunk while drinking grape juice at communion?
1Co 11:20-21
(20) When ye come together therefore into one place, [this] is not to eat the Lord's supper.
(21) For in eating every one taketh before [other] his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken

If one looks at the context of the passage correctly, one would have to come to the conclusion that the word 'drunken' does not mean 'intoxicated. While the primary meaning of the word 'drunken' in the Greek was 'intoxicated', it also could mean 'drank well.' The contrast is hunger and drunken. Drank well is the proper context. They were not drunk at all.

 

[tinytim]

Here is a question... a serious question...

Which has more yeast in it...
8 ozs of grape Juice
or
8 ozs of wine?

 

[tinytim]

If one looks at the context of the passage correctly, one would have to come to the conclusion that the word 'drunken' does not mean 'intoxicated. While the primary meaning of the word 'drunken' in the Greek was 'intoxicated', it also could mean 'drank well.' The contrast is hunger and drunken. Drank well is the proper context. They were not drunk at all.

I can buy that... what about the other 2 passages?

 

[tinytim]

ooops, my mistake, I just looked up the word for drunken in the greek, and it flat out means intoxicated....

But I will give you the benefit of the doubt, because the Corinthian church is not a fine example of what a Christian church should look like...

I can see some alcholics bringing their own wine to the Corinthian church, and the people being prideful in it...

 

[Joe]

How did the Corinthians get drunk while drinking grape juice at communion?

I would say the strong drink was intoxicating drink.The Corinthians got drunk at the Lord's table. Some died as a result 1 Cor. 11:21-34

It's possible the Lord hardened their heart as he did Pharoe's. Some were on the path to distruction so he just aided them in throwing powerful dilusions their way. My guess.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3184. methuo
Search for G3184 in KJVSL
mequw methuo meth-oo'-o
from another form of 3178; to drink to intoxication, i.e. get drunk:--drink well, make (be) drunk(-en).

See Greek 3178

it is quite clear that the word can mean drink well... as well as drink to intoxication.

I believe Paul was stating they drank well, not that they were intoxicated.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

1Ti 3:3
(3) Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:8
(8) Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

I believe the wine here is non alcoholic as well. The same Holy Spirit that inspired Solomon to warn against the drinking of alcohol (Look not th\ou upon the wine...) would not tell others it was ok to drink in moderation.

Doctors will tell you too much grape juice is not good for you. Try drinking more than a glass or two of pure grape juice and you will find that your stomach will get upset.

Same with honey, a little is like medicine, but too much will make one sick.