Unfinished Business

[tinytim]

This may be off topic, but why no wine for pastors, and Not Much wine for deacons? Even if it was just juice, why the difference...

What would make the difference between a bishop/pastor and a deacon..

IOWS, I would think if I pastor shouldn't drink any, a deacon shouldn't either...

Does my question make sense?

 

[Amy.G]

Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

What was strong drink? I have read and heard that distilled liquor was not made in Biblical times. That they did not have the means to do it.

It obviously wasn't wine since it's mentioned separately, so what was it?

 

[Joe]

What does strong drink refer to, and why did they have permission to buy it?
Deu 14:26
(26) And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Imo, because there is a theme 20-30 verses leading up to this verse, and it is health related. The 20-30 verses prior are detailing the clean vs unclean animals, the Lord is instructing them regarding their diet. This is to keep them healthy. Alcohol is a natural antiseptic, kills bacteria, including stomache bacteria. The Lord might have been concerned they would develop this condition from the food, and knew they loved wine, so allowed them to partake of it to keep them healthy. Alcohol is being used for medicinal purposes.

IMo, wine means unfermented in most cases. Strong drink refers to fermented wine/drink

 

[standingfirminChrist]

This may be off topic, but why no wine for pastors, and Not Much wine for deacons? Even if it was just juice, why the difference...

What would make the difference between a bishop/pastor and a deacon..

IOWS, I would think if I pastor shouldn't drink any, a deacon shouldn't either...

Does my question make sense?

There is really not a difference, tim. Look at the first word in verse 8... "Likewise". That means 'in the same manner.' The same was required of the deacon as the Bishop. Not to drink too much wine.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

What was strong drink? I have read and heard that distilled liquor was not made in Biblical times. That they did not have the means to do it.

It obviously wasn't wine since it's mentioned separately, so what was it?

strong drink was wine fortified with spices or othere ingredients to make it stronger. A mixed drink.

 

[Amy.G]

Here is an interesting article I found titled "Seven good reasons Christians should not drink":

http://www.logosresourcepages.org/Believers/drinking.htm

 

[Linda64]

Here is an interesting article I found titled "Seven good reasons Christians should not drink":

http://www.logosresourcepages.org/Believers/drinking.htm

Excellent article, Amy! I've heard Dr. David Brown preach that message--I think I heard it on Sermonaudio.

 

[Amy.G]

Excellent article, Amy! I've heard Dr. David Brown preach that message--I think I heard it on Sermonaudio.

It made of lot of sense. :thumbs:

One of the problems with drinking and avoiding being drunk (or intoxicated) is that by the time you find out what too much is, it's too late.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

As I have stated many times, since the Old Testament tells us to avoid alcoholic wine in Proverbs 23:31, I believe those who drink in moderation are disobeying God's Holy Word.

Also, they are basing drunkenness on man's definition of drunkenness. I bet God's definition of drunkenness is much lower bac than man thinks.

 

[Sopranette]

Here is a question... a serious question...

Which has more yeast in it...
8 ozs of grape Juice
or
8 ozs of wine?

Trick question, tinytim! Wine, after the process is complete, does not have any living yeast in it. They all die and sink to the bottom. Grape juice may or may not have yeast, depending on whether the grapes were washed thoroughly before hand, and if the container is sealed properly. The grape jiuce may contain a tiny bit of wild yeast. It usually doesn't survive long enough to make alcoholic wine.

love,

Sopranette

 

[tinytim]

So wine defineatly has no yeast right?
Grape juice could?

Which one then is more appropriate to use during communion?
since yeast represents sin, and we use unleavened bread for this reason?

If we are allowed to use a drink that represents the blood of Jesus, and that drink has yeast in it, why not use bread with yeast in it?

And no, this isnt a trick question, just one designed to allow you to think through some inconsistancies.

That said, I still believe in using juice for communion... based on practicality..
If we have a recovering alcoholic in our membership, if we would use wine, it may be a temptation to that brother or sister, and they could fall back into that sin... We would be putting a stumblingblock in front of a brother or sister...

 

[readmore]

Maybe yeast is only a picture of sin when applied to breads, but fermentation is a picture of sin when applied to drink?

Well, I don't know. I've been reading though I Corinthians and it's pretty apparent that they were using alcoholic wine in their communion because they were getting drunk on it.

 

[Sopranette]

I think Jews are the only ones who are not supposed to consume leavened bread. I don't know what they do in the case of grape juice/wine. I've heard they also consider wine to be a blessing. There are no such restrictions for Christians that I'm aware of.
I wouldn't expect alcoholic wine to be served in church, either. You never know if someone might object. It's just safer to go with juice.
I don't have a problem with someone having a glass of wine at home. Getting drunk is definitely a sin, though.

love,

Sopranette

 

[Amy.G]

So wine defineatly has no yeast right?
Grape juice could?

Which one then is more appropriate to use during communion?
since yeast represents sin, and we use unleavened bread for this reason?

If we are allowed to use a drink that represents the blood of Jesus, and that drink has yeast in it, why not use bread with yeast in it?

And no, this isnt a trick question, just one designed to allow you to think through some inconsistancies.

That said, I still believe in using juice for communion... based on practicality..
If we have a recovering alcoholic in our membership, if we would use wine, it may be a temptation to that brother or sister, and they could fall back into that sin... We would be putting a stumblingblock in front of a brother or sister...

How did the ancients know whether or not wine had yeast in it? Was there some sort of yeast test kit? :laugh: I don't recall ever reading in the OT that juice was forbidden in the Passover.

Also, what about the alcoholics in Paul's day? What did they do at the Lord's Supper?

 

[tinytim]

Soprannete, what type of bread does your church serve for communion?
Most Baptist churches serve unleavened bread.. (flat peice of bread) for communion for this very purpose. Because leaven represented sin in the Bible. Jesus served unleavened bread at the last supper.

 

[tinytim]

How did the ancients know whether or not wine had yeast in it? Was there some sort of yeast test kit? :laugh: I don't recall ever reading in the OT that juice was forbidden in the Passover.

Also, what about the alcoholics in Paul's day? What did they do at the Lord's Supper?

I am not suggesting that juice is forbidden..
I am just calling everyone to be consistant.

IOWS, If yeast is present in the juice, then don't squabble over yeast in the bread, use rolls.
And I am not saying anyone here is squabbling, but I have been in churches where using anything other than unleavened bread was anathema!! but they would proudly tip their cup of juice which does have yeast in it...

Fermentation removes yeast.

 

[Amy.G]

I am not suggesting that juice is forbidden..
I am just calling everyone to be consistant.

IOWS, If yeast is present in the juice, then don't squabble over yeast in the bread, use rolls.
And I am not saying anyone here is squabbling, but I have been in churches where using anything other than unleavened bread was anathema!! but they would proudly tip their cup of juice which does have yeast in it...

Fermentation removes yeast.

We know that now, but how did OT people know it? The bread was different because yeast had to be added. Unleavened is bread without yeast added. I just don't understand how they knew that alcoholic wine did not have yeast in it.

 

[Sopranette]

Soprannete, what type of bread does your church serve for communion?
Most Baptist churches serve unleavened bread.. (flat peice of bread) for communion for this very purpose. Because leaven represented sin in the Bible. Jesus served unleavened bread at the last supper.

I believe it's Wonder bread......no kidding! :laugh:

Amy G., I have no idea how they figured that out 2,000 years ago. But they did know somehow. I very much doubt any baker or wine maker would have just left their business in Nature's hands back then, any more than we would now.

love,
Sopranette

 

[tinytim]

Maybe we should switch to SON Beam bread....

 

[reformedbeliever]

I believe it's Wonder bread......no kidding! :laugh:

Amy G., I have no idea how they figured that out 2,000 years ago. But they did know somehow. I very much doubt any baker or wine maker would have just left their business in Nature's hands back then, any more than we would now.

love,
Sopranette

For one thing, they had the knowledge of the one who has all knowledge, Jesus Himself. In the OT they had knowledge from God, either directly or through the prophets. Not everything that was made known to mankind is writen in the Bible. There were many things that were not writen, which was not deemed as necessary, or at least not inspired by God.

Wild yeast is everywhere. It is upon wheat and every other living plant in the world. If you want to grow yeast, all you have to do is mix a little flour and water, add sugar (honey or any other naturally occuring sugar) or you could use the kind we use today , then allow to sit out at room temp and it will begin to grow yeast. This is how you make a starter for friendship bread. Yeast is expensive because it takes time to grow. Many people who make bread daily, do it this way to save dollars. Ask any mom who has several children, and bakes her own bread for health's sake and for goodness sake.
Any grape will have naturally occuring yeast. The wild yeast is abundant in some and not so abundant in others. If the grapes do not have an abundance of yeast, and you attempt to make wine, it will still be alcoholic wine. The amount of alcohol will be dependent upon the amount of yeast and sugar available on the grapes naturally. If there is not enough naturally occuring yeast or enough naturally occuring sugar, then the wine will have a lower alcohol content. Wine needs to have at least a 12% alcohol content to preserve itself, unless it is grape wine, and then it must be at least 10%. Some will argue that percentage and say even grape wine must be 12%.
Wine that does not reach 12% acohol by volume, is still alcoholic wine. It may spoil and not be as good as that which is 12%, but there are many cheap wines available. Take this info or leave it....... I do have experience in this area, as I used to brew my own........ in a previous life. Not to say I would never do it again. If it was ok for my Savior to make wine, I think He would not look down on me for doing it. I'll just bet His was waaaaaaaaay better than mine though. And my brew was exceptional.