Not sure, but Catholics certainly have, they would even have kicked puppies at various times as well.
You have to remember that Catholics are sinners, people seem to forget this, but it goes a long way to help explain why certain behaviours occur.
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Ungodly Divisions
- Thread starter OLD SARGE
- Start date
Not sure, but Catholics certainly have, they would even have kicked puppies at various times as well.
You have to remember that Catholics are sinners, people seem to forget this, but it goes a long way to help explain why certain behaviours occur.
I did not see a response to my question, but instead a change of subject. This sort of behavior is consistent with partisans, unwilling to actually examine their understanding of scripture.
Yes, the Ministry staff reported directly to our Senior Pastor, but the Elder board could remove any staff for cause, but the board usually followed the Senior Pastor's recommendation.
On the other hand the Senior Pastor could not hire staff without the approval of the board, but he made the selection and recommendation.
If I recall the issue the brought about the split was one where the Senior Pastor recommended dismissal of two associate Pastors, but the board ruled they would stay. The Senior Pastor decided he would not accept their ruling and chose to leave instead. The result of course was an increase in ministry reach.
The fact is, Jesus founded an Authoritive Apostolic Church to Govern his flock.
These Apostolic Shepherds were appointed in a direct succession from the Apostles, carrying real Authority entrusted to them.
Clement, the coworker with Paul mentioned in Scripture, gives a perfect example of how Apostolic succession took place.
Clement was ordained by Peter himself and worked along side Paul, Clement was an Apostolic Successor, who became Bishop of Rome.
“Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.” 1 Peter 5
These Bishops / Overseers appointed by the Apostles, are your true shepherds. The shepherds Luther rejected are the appointments of Christ.
These Apostolic Shepherds were appointed in a direct succession from the Apostles, carrying real Authority entrusted to them.
Clement, the coworker with Paul mentioned in Scripture, gives a perfect example of how Apostolic succession took place.
Clement was ordained by Peter himself and worked along side Paul, Clement was an Apostolic Successor, who became Bishop of Rome.
“Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.” 1 Peter 5
These Bishops / Overseers appointed by the Apostles, are your true shepherds. The shepherds Luther rejected are the appointments of Christ.
Are you going to discuss why leaders were elected by the members by a show of hands, or simply ignore God's word? Or why local churches were governed by Elders (leaders) elected from the members?
Since you destroyed all the pagan religions, what do you call all the non-Christian religions that are left?
Pardon my ignorance.
A rejection of his apostate church.
Ungodly divisions.
1) How about when the Church of England split from the Catholic Church?
2) How about when the "separatists split for the Church of England?
3) How about when the Luther/Catholic divide occurred?
Yes, we as Christians are supposed to have the spirit of unity but not at the expense of tolerating false teaching.
Most of us can find what we see as errant views in the beliefs of others. I certainly see what I believe are false doctrines in the RCC on one hand, and main line churches on the other. Closer to home, I see problems with "Easy Believism" on one hand and "works sustained salvation" on the other.
I believe:
1) Christ died as a ransom for all, so that the opportunity for salvation is available, and thus our salvation was not decided before creation.
2) God chooses individuals for salvation during their individual lifetime based on crediting their faith as righteousness, thus a conditional election.
3) The lost, natural, unregenerate people can hear and understand and respond to spiritual milk, but not spiritual solid food, thus most but not all, are able to respond appropriately to the gospel.
4) Once a person is saved, they are saved forever and they cannot lose their salvation.
5) One God, Yahweh, in three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
6) Jesus is God incarnate, the uniquely divine Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity.
Most if not all the other posters on this board disagree with one or more of these views.
1) How about when the Church of England split from the Catholic Church?
2) How about when the "separatists split for the Church of England?
3) How about when the Luther/Catholic divide occurred?
Yes, we as Christians are supposed to have the spirit of unity but not at the expense of tolerating false teaching.
Most of us can find what we see as errant views in the beliefs of others. I certainly see what I believe are false doctrines in the RCC on one hand, and main line churches on the other. Closer to home, I see problems with "Easy Believism" on one hand and "works sustained salvation" on the other.
I believe:
1) Christ died as a ransom for all, so that the opportunity for salvation is available, and thus our salvation was not decided before creation.
2) God chooses individuals for salvation during their individual lifetime based on crediting their faith as righteousness, thus a conditional election.
3) The lost, natural, unregenerate people can hear and understand and respond to spiritual milk, but not spiritual solid food, thus most but not all, are able to respond appropriately to the gospel.
4) Once a person is saved, they are saved forever and they cannot lose their salvation.
5) One God, Yahweh, in three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
6) Jesus is God incarnate, the uniquely divine Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity.
Most if not all the other posters on this board disagree with one or more of these views.
Right, some of the eleven Apostles plus Paul laid on the hands of every leader elected by the members. If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell.
Certainly we see where Paul confirmed the elected leaders establishing the method. Leaders are elected by the members, but the members then look to existing leaders for confirmation. (Acts 14:23)
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If the Apostles didn’t lay hands on the candidates, then they were not appointed.
We also see Paul tell Timothy not to lay hands on anyone hastily, so the power of appointment is handed on to the appointed.
“Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.” 1 Tim 5:22
Timothy was appointed Bishop of Ephesus.
This fits with Clements account explaining Apostolic succession.
“And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, ‘I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.’… Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry…For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties.” Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).
Clement was ordained by Peter personally and was the co worker of Paul mentioned in Scripture.
True leadership of the Church happens by a lineage of successors through the laying on of hands, not just by democratic election of the community.
1) Yes, they were not appointed. You apparently do not know the meaning of the Greek word translated as appointed. It means to select or elect by a showing of hands or a stretching out of hands.
2) Yes Timothy was and is not an Apostle, invalidating you own claim and supporting the post #31 view.
3) Certainly Timothy was entrusted to teach at Ephesus, but I did not see where he was appointed to leadership.
4) The rest of your post seem to rely upon human statements, but not found in our inspired scripture.
No it wasn’t just a show of hands, that’s funny.
Laying on of hands is the passing on of the Apostolic gift of The Holy Spirit for ministry to the successors.
Timothy and Titus both were given the Apostolic gift. Titus is told to “ teach and reprove with all Authority”. Reject them you reject the Apostles and reject Christ.
“For this reason, I am reminding you to fan into flames the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands.”
So a sacramental gift of God is imparted to Timothy through the laying on of Paul’s hands. This has always been the Apostolic gift handed down through the successors at ordination.
That’s why Paul tells Timothy not to lay hands on anyone hastily, real Apostolic authority is being handed on.
I assume you mean Clements writings. Sure, Clements writings aren’t Scripture, never said they were. It doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Your car manual isn’t inspired Scripture either.
Clement however is mentioned in Scripture, he knew Peter and Paul personally, he worked with Paul in ministry and was ordained by Peter himself.
Clement is a direct eyewitness and life witness of the Apostles, today people are given death sentences on the weight of one eyewitness.
Clement also preserved the writings of those Apostles and Gospel writers you hold in your hands. This amid great persecution by pagan Romans. Clement died a martyr, exiled from Rome and drowned.
Clements bona fides are pretty solid, mentioned in Scripture as co worker of Paul, Bishop, Martyr.
He’s kind of like a triple medal of honour winner with 7 Purple Hearts taking the stand and giving evidence.
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It is pointless to continue, Sir, as you seem unable or unwilling to address what I say. My first point was about the word appointed, meaning elected by a show of the church members hands, and you addressed the method of laying on of hands.
Sorry mate, I don’t know how those communities gave their approval of a candidate, it may very well have been through a show of hands, or even lot stones.
Scripture doesn’t furnish us with the method the community used, but the Apostles cast lots for Matthias as a method.
Lots are still cast today to select the Pope.
Repeating for the last time, scripture tells us how "those communities gave their approval." Acts 14:23.
Here is a word for word translation - Then - they(the members) elected by stretching out the hand - elders - for them - in every - called out assembly - - having prayed - with - fasting - - they commended (or set forth0 - them (the elected Elders) -
- to the - Lord - into - whom - they (the Elders) had believed.
Lets focus on the word translated above as "they commended." This is in the middle voice so the action was upon themselves. Thus the other leaders (including Paul) were enforcing to the Lord and His servants the position of church leader for the elected "Elders."
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Anyway, you can ignore pastors who are outside the Apostolic lineage, they don’t have authority, but not the Apostolic successors, that’s a huge mistake, they have real Authority through the laying on of hands from the Apostles.
A sacramental gift of God is imparted through the laying on of hands, the Sacrament of Holy Orders we call it.
A sacramental gift of God is imparted through the laying on of hands, the Sacrament of Holy Orders we call it.