Union With Christ

[The Biblicist]

Yes the assembly assembled.......in one place....that could be a house, a building, a field, on the beach, on the mountain........

Look at what you said. You said it requires a physical location to assemble -a house is a physical location. a building is a physical location. a field is a physical location. a beach is a physical location, a mountain is a physical location.

because the real holy place is heaven itself

False! Heaven may assemble with the ekklesi ON EARTH but Paul says that your PHYSICAL BODY is the "member of Christ" (1 Cor. 6:17) and your PHYSICAL body NEVER assemblies in heaven - NEVER! (until glorification)

Yes....a worldly sanctuary

He does mean "worldly" as in contrast to "godly" as the pattern of heavenly design. By "worldly" he means LOCATED ON EARTH. The NT. assembly in Hebrews 10:25 is LOCATED ON EARTH it meets ON earth it assembles ON EARTH, the ekklesia at Corinth was located ON EARTH.

The "also" followed by the "and" demonstrates the NT. ekklesia has ORDINANCES administered ON EARTH and assemblies "in one place" ON EARTH.

 

[The Biblicist]

I said no Earthly Holy Place........do not twist it...here is what I actually said

I did not twist it, I demonstrated you were wrong with 1 Cor. 11:22. Paul locat ed it on earth "in one place" (vv. 18,20) and then distinguished that place from their "houses" to eat and drink "IN" as opposed to eating and drinking "IN" the church. It is this LOCATE PLACE CHARACTERIZED BY THE ASSEMBLY they could "DEFILE" and you can't defile anything UNHOLY.

I demonstrated your error by 1 Tim. 3:14-15b that the PLACE OF ASSEMBLY which is CHARACTERIZED by the public house of worship - the ekkesia demands a certain BEHAVIOR "in" the house of God.

The assembly is itself HOLY and the assembly and place of assembling are inseparably connected as it is IMPOSSIBLE to assemble without PLACE as the assembly consists of spiritual (born again spirits) but confined in physical bodies which are what is being assembled.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is not a physical building made of would stone and fabric....it is individual living stones, who are individually a temple 1 cor 6....who in obedience to Jesus assemble corporately......

But they were PHSICALLY ASSEMBLED IN ONE PLACE ON EARTH as their physical bodies are said to be "members of Christ" (1 Cor. 6:17) and it is their PHYSICAL BODIES with born again spirits that is the metaphorical "LIVING" (born again spirit) "STONES" (physical assembled bodies).

There was no one earthtly Holy place now.....

Who said there was? Not me! That is why the OT "house of God" was a TYPE of the NT. "house of God" as EACH N.T. house of God is located and assembles IN ONE PLACE .

it is not a place, but a people;
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

Yes, the assembly at Corinth was ASSEMBLED PEOPLE in "one place" and Paul says to that LOCATED ASSEMBLY OF PEOPLE "now YE are THE body of Christ and members in particular." Not "we are" but "ye are." Each and every NT congregation METAPHORICALLY is "THE body of Christ" in its location.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Holy Place is in Heaven
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Hebrews 12:23

There are several contextual and grammatical factors that must be understood clearly if this passage is to be interpreted correctly.

First, the shift from salvation to sanctification occurs in Hebews 10:18. From Hebrews 10:18 until the close of the book is about FAITHFUL SERVICE. The public assembling is introduced at this juncture (Heb. 10:25). The faithfulness of O.T. saints is provided as MOTIVATION for N.T. Saints (Heb. 11) as they compose the "great crowd of witnesses" in Heb. 12:1 that cheers the Hebrew Christians to be faithful. The race in Hebrews 12:1-4 is not about salvation but about service. The example of Jesus is presented to motivate to FAITHFULNESS (Heb. 12:2-4). The discipline in Heb. 12:5-10 is God means to motivate to faithful service. This is then followed by NEGATIVE examples (Esau, Israel).

Second, the Greek text uses a plural not a singular, and thus, it is literally the “congregation of firstborn ones.”

Third, it is in this capacity as “firstborn” that the ekklesia is being contrasted with Esau and Israel (Heb. 12:15-17). From Genesis to Moses, the right of firstborn not only included a double portion, but also the leadership position in the family especially in public worship. The other children received inheritance but the firstborn received "double." Cain had rejected his right of firstborn, as the priest in his family by rejecting the ordained sacrifice in public worship (Heb. 11:4). Esau had rejected his right as firstborn by selling it for a “mess of pottage” (Heb. 12:14-17). From Moses to Christ the firstborn was the tribe of Levi who served in the “house of God” within God’s professing kingdom (Israel). From Christ’s first coming unto his second coming it is the ekklesia that holds the position of firstborn within the family of God and professing kingdom of God.

When Israel assembled as an ekklesia at the foot of Mount Sinai in public worship of God, they had come into the very presence of God, angels and heaven but continued in rebellion until they ultimately rejected the same covenant sacrifice that Cain rejected and therefore, God rejected their pubic worship as the “house of God” (Mt. 23:37) and would destroy it just a few years later in 70 A.D.

Now these believing Jews were about to despise their own birthright by forsaking the assembling of themselves together after the New Testament order, refusing the New Covenant sacrifice as did Cain, Esau and Israel.

Fourth, this church of “firstborn ones” is not in heaven, but only “written in heaven” but existed on earth, just as the Lord’s disciples had their names written in heaven but existed on earth:

Lu 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Nevertheless, as the “church of firstborn ones” they had come into the presence of heaven, God and angels just as did the Jewish ekklesia at Mount Sinai when it assembled as instructed by God. The scriptures clearly demonstrate that New Testament ekklesia meets as the house or church “of God” (1 Cor. 1:2) and therefore God meets with them at each assembly. Moreover, the scriptures clearly teach that angels attend the assemblies (1 Cor. 11:10; Eph. 3:10) and so the ekklesia assembles in the presence of heaven.

Fifth, Paul uses the perfect tense in verse 18 and verse 22 demonstrating that they had already come into the presence of God and heaven as the church of firstborn ones. The contrast is between the organized Jewish ekklesia which met at Mount Sinai in contrast to their assembling which they are told not to forsake (Heb. 10:25; 12:23), and which the act of forsaking declares repudiation of the New Covenant and its administration.[1] The Jewish ekklesia was not assembled in heaven but at Mount Sinai on earth, yet heaven assembled with that ekklesia. Likewise, with the New Testament ekklesia when it assembles on earth heaven is present. The ekklesia no more assembled in heaven than did the Jewish ekklesia at Mount Sinai. In both cases it is heaven that attended the earth located assembly.

Sixth, the overall context is designed to demonstrate that the New Covenant is superior to the Old Covenant. These Jewish believers were contemplating forsaking the New Covenant and returning to Judaism under the Old Covenant. Faithfulness to the New Covenant included faithfulness in assembling themselves together (Heb. 10:25) under the leadership of their elders (Heb. 13:7, 17). Forsaking the New Covenant was manifested by forsaking the assembling of themselves together (Heb. 10:25b) and thus refusing to be submissive to their ordained leadership. Hebrews 12:22-28 is designed to reveal to them what they are forsaking when they forsake the assembling together and return to Judaism.

Just as the Old Covenant administration had ordinances and a sanctuary located in the world (the temple) so also did the New Covenant administration (Heb. 9:1).

When all of these contextual factors are considered, then the normal meaning of ekklesia makes sense in this passage.


[1] If one understands the act of forsaking the assembling in Hebrews 10:25 as repudiation of the whole Christian system of faith and practice, then Hebrews 10:26-30 takes on a completely new meaning.

 

[Yeshua1]

Please deal with the detailed evidence presented in my post. If you can refute it, then fine, but at least deal with it straight forward.

Union with Jesus is to His Body, the Bride, the Universal church though, and there is also the local assembly aspect that you have written about here...

Just do not see the local assembly being the tru full church, nor when Christians are in union with jesus solely!

 

[The Biblicist]

Union with Jesus is to His Body, the Bride, the Universal church though, and there is also the local assembly aspect that you have written about here...

Just do not see the local assembly being the tru full church, nor when Christians are in union with jesus solely!

NEVER!!! because it would limit saved people to those living between Pentecost and His coming as there is no baptism in the Spirit prior to Penteost. Because there is no NEW TESTAMENT/COVENANT ekklesia prior to is own "foundation" (Eph. 2:20) which the first added to the N.T. ekklesia are "apostles followed by prophets (1 Cor. 12:28).

Furthermore, your doctrine teaches CHURCH SALVATION straight from Romanism as to be outside of your kind of church is to be lost and only those inside are saved.

Your are confusing the baptism in the Spirit with regeneration and they are not the same and have absolutely no connection with each other.

Finally, you are CONFUSING the "family" of God with the ekklesia of God and they are not the same. The ekklesia is the authorized administrator of the keys of the kingdom and visible respresentative of the professing kingdom. You are confusing salvation with service.

 

[Iconoclast]

No, my post describes the consistent use of the phrase "the house of God" and it is NEVER used in either the New or Old Testament for anything other than in the context of a PUBLIC HOUSE OF WORSHIP where there is a PUBLIC QUALIFIED ministry, adminitering PUBLIC QUALIFIED ordinances where the PUBLIC preaching of God's work occurs among the ASSEMBLED people of God.

Most of the references are describing OT. Physical structures.
They point to the NT reality.....living stones

 

[The Biblicist]

Most of the references are describing OT. Physical structures.
They point to the NT reality.....living stones

It is used for the Lord's Church in 1 Timothy 3:15 after 83 straight uses for the place where a qualified ministry administered qualified ordinances where the people of God assembled for PUBLIC WORSHIP. This is the very context of 1 Tim. 3:15 as well. 1 Tim. 3:1-13 provide qualifications for Bishop over the PUBLIC WORSHIP service. The expression "the house of God" had only one meaning in the mind of Jews and one usage THE PUBLIC HOUSE OF WORSHIP and that phrase a Jewish Paul writing to a Jewish raised Timothy as Pastor uses to identify the church of the Living God.

Your so-called universal invisible church cannot be described as the "pillar and ground of truth" in any PRACTICAL sense of these words.

He is referring to the Assembly in its place of worship as he tells Timothy there is a proper behavior "IN" the house of God = public house of worship. The NT. ekklesia is a metaphorical "house" or "building" (1 Cor. 3:9) composed of PHSICAL HUMAN BODIES (1 Cor. 6:17) that are assembled together "in one place" decently and in order.

 

[The Biblicist]

In Strongs systematic theology on pg 807...in the footnotes we read;
Nothing is said of one fold under the new dispensation Here is a unity, not of external organization, but of common life. Of this is the visible church is the consequence and expression.

But this Communion is not limited to the earth, it is perpetuated beyond death;
1thess 4:17..."so shall we ever be with the Lord".
Heb12:23- to the general assembly and church of the fiirstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to the God and Judge of all, and the spirits of just men made perfect.

Rev ,21 and 22....the city of God, the new Jerusalem, is the image of perfect society,as well as the intensity and fulness of life IN Christ.

The ordinances express the essence of ecclesiology-Union with Christ-

for BAPTISM symbolizes The incorporation of the believer in Christ....

Life has to do with birth, birth has to do with children and children have do with FAMILY not the church.

 

[The Biblicist]

Union with Christ is not a union with a system of doctrine, nor with external religious influences, nor with the organized church, nor with the ideal man- but rather , with a personal, risen,living, omnipresent Lord.

J.W.Stewart...

Those who are "born of the flesh" are "in the flesh" and those who are "in the flesh" are "in Adam.
Those who are "born of the Spirit" are "in the Spirit" and those who are "in the Spirit" are "in Christ"

No baptism of any kind literally puts anyone "in Adam" or "in Christ." It is all about BIRTH not baptism.

There is but "one baptism" with regard to the church and it is water baptism.

 

[Jerome]

It is utterly amazing that any professing Christian would deny the baptism of John as “Christian” (or Christ-like baptism) especially on the grounds that it was a “baptism of repentance.” Utterly amazing!

Puritan John Davenport, Another Essay for Investigation of the Truth (Cambridge, 1663):

we argue thus: John's Baptism was Christian Baptism, (as all our Divines maintain against the Papists)

What is it that would motivate one to deny this?

 

[The Biblicist]

Puritan John Davenport, Another Essay for Investigation of the Truth (Cambridge, 1663):


What is it that would motivate one to deny this?

They have to grasp at straws to deny John's baptism is Christian. Utterly amazing!

 

[The Biblicist]

We believe salvation is "in Christ" by NEW BIRTH while and they believe salvation is IN THE CHURCH (which they spiritualize into Christ) by baptism. The Reformed Roman Catholic doctrine of church salvation is just a quick tweak by Reformers of Roman Catholic Church salvation in order to stay in the church for salvation.

They have no baptism in the Spirit for the church salvation before Pentecost and they have no church before the ministry of Christ for their church salvation.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Landmark position is the most consistent soteriology with the bible.

1. Those "in Adam" are "in the flesh" BY BIRTH not by baptism and Birth is about FAMILY

2. Those "in Christ" are "in the Spirit" BY BIRTH not by baptism and birth is about FAMILY

3. The Church is a New Testament creation for SERVICE- Mt. 16:18
a. It's "foundation" is made of NT. materials - Eph. 2:20
b. It's first additions are made of NT materials - 1 Cor. 12:28
c. It is "in one place" for each congregation - Acts 2:1; 1 Cor. 11:18,20,22
d. Each are metaphorical "chaste virgins" to be presented to Christ - 2 Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:23-27
e. It is gifted for service - 1 Cor. 12:27.

4. The term ekklesia is LOCALIZED
a. The concrete singular and plural count for 95 out of 115 instances
b. The INSTITUTIONAL ABSTRACT count for all the rest

5. The body of Christ is a METAPHOR for the institutional church with its METAPHORICAL "members"

6. The historical context for the "we...us...ye...you" are members of churches that are like faith and order and NEVER divided into denominationalism.

7. Where there is no scriptural immersion in water there is no true ekklesia of Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist,

Tell me how can the ekklesia you are a baptized member assemble without assembling in a PLACE? You are simply ignoring Acts 2:1 "in one place" and ignoring 1 Cor. 11:18,20 "in one place"!

I said there is no designated place, it is the assembled people wherever they assemble. These two verses simply say in one place.....meaning they assembled.

Your concern reminds me of the woman in John 4 who was concerned about "the place" where worship was to me offered....
Jesus interestingly enough did not give her directions to any one earthly place;
19 The woman saith to him, `Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet;

20 our fathers in this mountain did worship, and ye -- ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where it behoveth to worship.'

21 Jesus saith to her, `Woman, believe me, that there doth come an hour, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father;

22 ye worship what ye have not known; we worship what we have known, because the salvation is of the Jews;

23 but, there cometh an hour, and it now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also doth seek such to worship him;

24 God [is] a Spirit, and those worshipping Him, in spirit and truth it doth behove to worship.'

To say it assemblies in heaven is silly. For example, when is your church assembling in heaven next Sunday and please give directions on how to get there?????[/QUOTE]
Did I say it physically assembles in heaven? Where did I say such?

I did quote the teaching that we are indeed come to mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem
.
How do we get there you ask? Our worship and prayer is offered up In Spirit and truth....The Spirit has given all members access to the holy of holies in prayer and praise...by virtue of our being the recipients of Spirit baptism ,under going regeneration and new birth and now having an eternal inheritance being in saving Union with Christ.

look here;
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Jesus accomplished redemption at one point in time saying...it is finished.
we were not physically alive at that moment in time.
However when drawn to Christ and quickened by the Spirit, that which was done in the covenant death of the cross was fully revealed to us.
in the same way....Spirit baptism is a one time event...we were not alive when it took place, and yet when quickened by the Spirit we learn of the reality of it,and who we are IN Christ...romans 6:1-11
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

ONLY SPIRIT BAPTISM CAN DO THIS....
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Assembling and place are inseparable as no two people can assemble without assembling in a WORLDLY LOCATED PLACE - impossible to do without a geographical place.

In the NT.... there is no special Holy place or Holy land....as a given church can assemble in a number of locations....it can be in a building , or the beach, or the mountain

Your PHYSICAL BODY is "the member of Christ" and it your PHYSICAL body that ASSEMBLES and by neccessity in a PHYSICAL location. Your born again Spirit does not enter into heaven but is confined to your body - this assembly assembles only on earth.

In our Union with Christ....by virtue of Spirit baptism..we are baptized into His body.
So much so that when Saul persecuted the church on earth, Jesus asked him this;
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

These men and women by virtue of their union with Christ were said by JESUS that to persecute them on earth was to persecute Him.

not an institutional church...men and women....living stones.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Biblicist,



I said there is no designated place, it is the assembled people wherever they assemble. These two verses simply say in one place.....meaning they assembled.

First, the ekklesia of Christ is not any two or more believers who just HAPPEN to assemble. Matthew 18:20 is contextually refering to the ekklesia in verse 17.

Second, the Ekklesia of Christ is an organized institution consisting of officers, ordinances, membership, discipline, and a mission and you can't find any ekklesia in the NT. that is not.,

Third, it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate the words "gather together in the ekklesia" from "in one place" it can't be done!

Your concern reminds me of the woman in John 4 who was concerned about "the place" where worship was to me offered....
Jesus interestingly enough did not give her directions to any one earthly place;
19 The woman saith to him, `Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet;

20 our fathers in this mountain did worship, and ye -- ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where it behoveth to worship.'

21 Jesus saith to her, `Woman, believe me, that there doth come an hour, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father;

22 ye worship what ye have not known; we worship what we have known, because the salvation is of the Jews;

23 but, there cometh an hour, and it now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also doth seek such to worship him;

24 God [is] a Spirit, and those worshipping Him, in spirit and truth it doth behove to worship.'

You are misapplying this text. The very nature of the Jewish temple and Samaritan temple restricted worship to ONE CITY over the entire earth. The ekklesia of Christ in the institutional sense is not restricted to ONE CITY over the entire earth but can be found in EVERY city or ANY SINGLE place over the entire earth.

Moreover, worship "in spirit and IN TRUTH" demands membership in such an ekklesia in order to be OBEDIENT to Christ's commission and the Holy Spirit's command (Heb. 10:25).

In our Union with Christ....by virtue of Spirit baptism..we are baptized into His body.

This is a lie straight from the father of lies.

So much so that when Saul persecuted the church on earth, Jesus asked him this;
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
from
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

These men and women by virtue of their union with Christ were said by JESUS that to persecute them on earth was to persecute Him.

Another false doctrine as the Scriptures make it clear he persecuted the ekklesia at Jerusalem. When you persecute the METAPHORICAL body of Christ, HIS institutional congregation you are persecuting Him as a METAPHOR by its very definition is REPRESENTATION and the congregations of Christ REPRESENT him.

The Persecuted Church

1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.


Ga 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:


Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.


Paul is referring back historically to the time he was known as the unregenerated Saul. Luke specifically identifies “the church” Saul Persecuted:

Acts 8:1 ¶ And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles….As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

not an institutional church...men and women....living stones.

This is such a manifest falsehood that I don't know how you can even utter it. What constitutes an institution? The answer is - Officers, ordinances, membership qualifications, disciplinary code, order, mission statement and all of these characterize every single ekklesia in the N.T.

The very text you are abusing demands all of these characteristics. The very term "Holy" means set apart in keeping with Scriptural precepts, the very term "priests" spoke of a qualified person, the very terms "lively stones" modified by "built up" so that it is called a "house" demands an ordered assembly of such stones. The very term "acceptable" demands a qualified sacrifice. You are abusing God's Word. The NT. ekklesia is the visible REPESENTATION of the professing "KINGDOM" of God on earth and thus replaces the "NATION" of Israel in that VISIBLE capacity. If one wants to see the true nature of God's rule/kingdom at work, the ekklesia VISIBLY represents His laws and His worship. And your false doctrine is perverting that representation into the Great Harlot.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Greek term ekklesia is used a total of 115 times in the New Testament and 113 refer to the ekklesia of Christ. Out of that 113 at least 95 instances it refers to a visible located assembly according to the context. The remaining 18 instances it is found in the singular with a definite article and it is upon these 18 uses that the Reformed doctrine of the universal church is founded.

However, Classical Greek provides the abstract institutional use of ekklesia and therefore that is an essential aspect of the ordinary common meaning of ekklesia that must be considered by honest exegetes before adopting a brand new meaning never before heard of prior to the New Testament writing and which is OPPOSITE IN MEANING from the normal usage of ekklesia in all of its preceding history.

Such a use is found in Matthew 18:17 where there is no geographical location, no specific congregation described but twice it is found in the singular with the definite article. However, no exegete in their right mind would dare suggest it must have a meaning contrary to its long established historical usage.

In all 18 remaining cases the abstract institutional sense can make sense and the rule of exegesis is that if the common ordinary meaning of a word makes sense SEEK NTHER SENSE and indeed, even if a new meaning can make sense in a given passage it is to be rejected as long as the common meaning makes sense.

Every single metaphor used for the ekklesia of Christ in the Scriptures is local and visible by nature - every single metaphor. The writers of scripture never use metaphors that convey universal or invisible characteristics - never!

 

[The Biblicist]

THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE KINGDOM, FAMILY AND CHURCH OF GOD

Some Apparent Differences


Eph. 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,


1 Cor. 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


1 Cor. 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth,


Furthermore, the following will sustain these are to be distinguished from one another rather than interpreted as synonyms.


1. The difference of terminology and meaning:


a. "Family" - Greek "patria" - those fathered – lineage

b. "Kingdom" - Greek "basilea" - the rule and realm and Person of a king

c. "Church" - Greek "ekklesia" - congregation, assembly



2. The different applications


a. The Bible speaks of the “gospel of the kingdom” but never uses such language for the

family or church.


b. The Bible speaks of the “keys of the kingdom” but never uses such language for the church

or family of God.


c. The term “member” is never used in scripture to describe those in God’s kingdom or family

but only those in churches.


d. The church is called a “body” and “building” but the kingdom and family are never thus

called.


e. Jesus says “tell it to the church” but never says tell it to the kingdom or family.


f. The terms “kingdom” and “family” are only found in the singular but the term “church” is

found in the plural (36 times) and in the singular (79 times).


g. A “brother” can be placed outside the church membership by other brethren exercising

church discipline, but no human disciplinary action can remove any “brother” outside the

kingdom and family of God. – 1 Cor. 5:11; 2 Thes. 3:6,14.


h. The professing kingdom contains “tares” (Mt. 13:41) and the church contains persons like

Judas, but the family of God only contains true born again believers.


i. The Kingdom and family contain persons without water baptism (all pre-New Testament

believers and unbaptized believers in this age), but church membership is for only water

baptized professed believers – Acts 2:41-42


j. We read of ‘elders” and “apostles” in the church but no such officers are ever used to

describe those in the kingdom and family.


k. Geographical names are given to the church – “the church of God at Corinth” but no such

geographical language is ever used for the kingdom and family of God.


l. The church is described as being “built” and “fitly framed” but the kingdom is announced as

“near at hand.” Neither the kingdom or family are said to be “built” or “fitly framed.”



3. The Difference in Nature


a. The church conveys an autonomous democratic body

b. The kingdom conveys a sovereign rule by a king

c. The family conveys a paternal relationship between a father and his children


4. The difference in relationship to God


a. "Family" - relationship is defined as "children"

b. "Kingdom" relationship is defined as "citizens"

c. "Church" - relationship is defined as "members"



5. The difference in size


a. "Family" includes all saints in heaven and presently on earth - Eph. 3:15

b. "Kingdom" –Is God’s rule over the entire universe but in regard to his spiritual kingdom

on earth it includes only “the seed” presently on earth at any given time - Mt. 13


c. "Church" – includes baptized believers gathered out of God's kingdom and family on earth

who actually assemble together - Acts 2:41



6. The difference in entrance


a. "Family" is by birth "born" a child of God - I Jn. 3:18

b. “Kingdom" is by translation power - Col. 1:13

c. "Church" is by water baptism - Acts 2:41



7. The difference in origin


a. “Kingdom” began with creation of this universe (Psa. 103:19) while the spiritual kingdom

on earth began with the first person saved from the fall (Adam) in Genesis thus born into

the kingdom of his dear son (Col. 1:13; Gen. 3:15; Acts 10:43). The professing kingdom

consists of the professed saved (true seed and tares) – Mt. 13


b. “Family” began with new birth of first child of God – Gen. 3:15 (new birth prior to

Pentecost – Jn. 3:3-11; Ezek. 44:7)


c. “Church” began with Christ’s First Advent and with the materials prepared by John the

Baptist – Acts 1:21-22; Lk. 1:17; – and first gifted officers set in the church – 1 Cor. 12:28.

First members and Foundation of church are found in the New Testament, not the Old

Testament (Eph. 2:20.


8. The difference in internal relationships


a. "Family" persons can exist outside of the church - 1 Cor. 5:11; 2 Thes. 3:6; Acts10:43


b. "Kingdom" persons can exist outside of the church - Acts 10:43; 2 Thes. 3:6


c. "Church" persons can be removed from the church but not from the family or kingdom by

discipline - 1 Cor. 5:11; 2 Thes. 3:6



9. The difference in location


a. "Family" persons are located in heaven and on earth - Eph.3:15


b. "Kingdom" persons are located throughout the world - Mt. 13:38 - "the field is the world"


c. "Church" located in one geographical spot - 1 Cor. 1:2 "The church of God WHICH IS AT

Corinth"

10. The difference in what unites


a. “Family” unity is by common birth, common Spirit, and common Father. – Rom. 8:9; Jn.

3:3-6


b. “Kingdom” unity is by common rule and professed allegiance to the same King. – Mt. 13


c. “Church” unity is by common doctrine, profession and baptism. – Acts 2:41-42



11. The difference in relationship to the gospel and salvation


a. "Family" All who are genuinely saved by the same gospel, same way, same savior in

connection with new birth


b. "Kingdom" All the saved and professed saved – Mt. 13:38


c. "Church" All who publicly profess to be already in God’s family and Kingdom BEFORE

they can be received into church membership by water baptism - Acts 2:41-42



12. There is a contrasting kingdom, family and church


a. Kingdom of darkness – Col. 1:13 – “the world” system – Jn. 17:9


b. Family of Satan – Jn. 8:44; Gen. 3:15 “seed” “tares” etc.


c. Church of Satan – Rev. 17:5; 18:4 – “synagogue of Satan” – Rev. 2:9; “corrupted” virgins

(2 Cor. 11:3-4)



13. There is a difference in the New Creation


a. "Family" many “saved” will live outside the New Jerusalem on new earth - Rev. 21:24 and

be guests at wedding - Rev. 19:8-9 and have the “leaves” of the tree of life – Rev. 22:2


b. "Kingdom" many “saved” will live outside of New Jerusalem on new earth - Rev. 21:24

and be guest at wedding - Rev. 19:8-9 and will have the “leaves” of the tree of life – Rev.

22:2


c. "Church" is the bride dressed in white (Rev. 19:6-7) and will eat of the tree of life (Rev.

2:7) and live inside the city (Rev. 22:1-3)

 

[The Biblicist]

SPIRITUAL UNION IS THE OPPOSITE OF SPIRITUAL SEPARATION

The argument between universal churchites and myself can be reduced to this simply bottom line fact - Spiritual union is the opposite of spiritual separation.

Therefore, if you understand the nature of spiritual separation you can understand the nature of spiritual union - it is just that simple.

1. Spiritual separation is INTERNAL spiritual DEATH - Hence spiritual union is its opposite - spiritual LIFE

2. Spiritual separation is INTERNAL spiritual separation from God - Hence, spiritual union is the opposite it is INTERNAL spiritual union with God called INDWELLING -

3. Spiritual separation is INTERNAL spiritual separation from the life, light, Holiness and Love of God (Eph. 2:1-3; 4:18-19). Hence, spiritual union with God is a creative act (not a baptismal act) that obtains INTERNAL life (Eph. 2:1,10) light, Righteousness (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) and love (1 Jn. 4:6)

4. Birth and Creation characterize obtaining internal spiritual life, light, holiness and love in connection with faith in the gospel. We are called upon to believe in order to be saved (brought back into spiritual union with God so that we possess life, light, holiness and love).

5. However, the baptism in the Spirit is an ACTION by the Spirit that is TIME LOCATED and once for all action, whereas the act of restoring spiritual union with God is a repetitive action from Genesis to Revelation in connection with every elect individual at the point of gospel conversion.

The argument that the baptism as a one time action is like the shedding of Christ blood is FALSE! The ACTION of shedding Christ's blood MUST be once for all as any repetitive act of shedding His blood invalidates the cross altogether. However, spiritual union is a repetivitive ACTION by the Spirit with each individual elect at the point of conversion.

Those who deny spiritual union of Pre-Pentecost saints are denying any INTERNAL spiritual life, light, righteousness or love within anyone prior to the cross. They are saying there are no "saints" previous to the cross as the term "saint" with reference to God's people means "set apart" unto RIGHTEOUSNESS. They are saying they all existed and live their life in SPIRITUAL DEATH/SEPARATION and their departed spirit was SPIRITUAL DEAD or separated from God just like God haters. They are saying pre-cross saints are greater than post cross saints because we can DO NOTHING without God working IN us (Philip 2:13) while they did not have God IN them as they were spiritual SEPARATED from God. They are saying pre-cross saints are greater than post cross saints because we cannot overcome the indwelling law of sin in us except by the INDWELLING Spirit (Rom. 7:14-25 with Rom. 8:8-9) while they can be faithful without the INTERNAL presence of the Spirit because they are internal separated spiritually from God.

Both of these views are antibiblical (spiritual union by baptism in the Spirit AND denial of spiritual union prior to Pentecost.

 

[The Biblicist]

SPIRITUAL AND VISIBLE??

Many universal advocates attempt to contrast "spiritual" with "visible" as though the visible N.T. ekkesia is not a "spiritual" institution. They think of "spiritual" as invisible" when in fact the Bible primarily contrasts "spiritual" with "carnal" not invisible.

Paul writing to the ekklesia at Corinth said he could not write unto them as "spiritual" (invisible???) but as "carnal" (visible???). He is talking about the character of their VISIBLE WALK or their VISIBLE CONDUCT or their attitude as characterized by their speech and actions.

The NT. ekklesia is not a SECULAR institution but a SPIRITUAL institution as its worship, business and commission is in SPIRITUAL matters. Qualifications for membership in the NT ekklesia is the profession of faith that they are "lively stones" or born again children of God and that is the profession declared in water baptism. Anyone who does not profess and declare that cannot be a member of a NT ekklesia.

Speaking of their VISIBLE PHYSICAL BODIES as "members of Christ" ekklesia, Paul tells the Corinthians:

15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

The "members of Christ' here are VISIBLE PHYSICAL human bodies. Hence, that demands that the nature of Christ metaphorical body is VISIBLE and is an ASSEMBLY of physical bodes that do "spiritual" business for God and is a VISIBLE assembly as visible physical bodies occupy SPACE.