United Baptist Associations

[convicted1]

I know some Untied Baptist associations and I was wondering how many I don't know about. Here are the ones I know:

Tri-State Zion
Old Zion
New Zion
Iron Hill
Old Paint Union
Paint Union
Bethel
Union Bethlehem
Iron Hill
New Hope
Bethlehem...I think there are two "sides" of Bethlehem

I know there must be more of these, but I can't think of them right now. I attend the ORBs, but my Mawmaw went to the Tri-States, so I am just curiuos. Can anyone name some others? Thanks!!

 

[rlvaughn]

convicted1, for a quick post right now, I will refer you to our brother 'bethel assoc's' web site on United Baptist associations. It contains a pretty extensive listing of United Baptists past and present.

http://unitedbaptists.org/

 

[Sis. Sarah]

Western Union Association

Does anyone have a copy of the minutes from the 1982/83 Western Union Association meeting? It would have included Westside United Baptist in Muncie, IN where Simon Waters was pastor at the time. I do not know if he was the moderator of the meeting(s) or not but I would like the history of what happened there between Westside and Bethel United Baptist Churches. I have been told for years there was some trouble over Bethel wanting to accept members and associate with churches that believed in pre and millennium reign doctrine and when the pastor of Westside, Simon Waters, left the meeting he was alone. I know for a fact that Bethel has Sunday School teachers who teach this doctrine because I used to go there so I was just wanting the history on it. Both Bethel and Westside now belong to the South Concord Association of United Baptists. Sis. Sarah

 

[Sis. Sarah]

A little more history on this 1982/83 meeting

I should say that for years there was a sign up in the back of Westside United Baptist stating, "we do not allow pre millennium doctrine preached here" where a person standing in the pulpit could see it above the door. It has since been taken down though the current pastor there does not preach it. This leads me to believe the story is true but I would like to see the minutes. I believe this association no longer exists though. I also think Bro. Dewey Cooper was a member if anyone can remember him or knows him. Sis. Sarah

 

[Sis. Sarah]

West Union Association - not Western

Sorry, it was called the West Union Association of United Baptist. I am new at this and this is a new subject matter for me. Anyway, I found some obituaries from Scott County TN but not the minutes. The librarian in TN told me to find out who published them. Would anyone happen to know any more information about the West Union Association? Sis. Sarah

 

[rlvaughn]

Sis. Sarah, I have some minutes of the West Union Association from the 1990s and a couple in the 1920s, but don't have any from the 1980s.

 

[Sis. Sarah]

West Union Assoc. Books from 1920s and 1990s

RL, I thought the association broke up? At least the churches in this area are all now in the South Concord Association of which Bethel is now the head of as far as I know. As I said, associations are new to me and I was wondering if all the churches in South Concord now teach/preach millenium reign as Bethel does. (Or even accept members that believe in it.) They state they do not but I was there at a few of their Sunday Schools and heard it myself. I am wondering if there are any West Union churches still around here and if they then teach/preach this doctrine. Can you tell me who the publisher of the booklets is and if there is a web address? I sure would appreciate it. Thank you. Sis. Sarah

 

[Bethelassoc]

Sarah,

Our association is in correspondence with West Union. I still have yet to get a minute book from South Concord.

David

 

[Sis. Sarah]

West Union and South Concord

Well David, if you do get something from South Concord maybe you could take a look at the churches to see if all of them came from West Union? Would you happen to know if West Union Association churches teach/preach millenium reign and if there are any of them left in Indiana? I have some people who are looking for a United Baptist church though I am now persuaded that the Old Regular Baptist faith and order is where I should be personally. Still, I would like to know if there are any United's left that do not follow the teachings/preaching I heard at Bethel when I was attending there. There are too many differences in what these United's believe and what I believe now for me to ever turn back but this is only based on the ones I know in this area of Indiana. As I have been studying more about the Masonic Lodge I can see now why the churches in this area practice as they do. Their methods are relfective of masonic methods in addition to the differences in doctrine. Thank you. Sis. Sarah

 

[Sis. Sarah]

Letter of Correspondence to the United Baptists prior to Black Rock Address

If anyone knows about the association letter of correspondence sent to the United Baptists from either the Primitave or Old Regulars to the United Baptists I found once on the Internet I would sure like to see it again. It had the points of contention briefly stated. I printed a hard copy but cannot find it now anywhere. It is not the Black Rock Address but a letter that was sent that explained why correspondence had to be broken with the United's but I can't remember who it was from exactly. Thanks. Sis. Sarah

 

[Bethelassoc]

The minute book that I have is from 2004. It states that West Union was in correspondence with:

South Fork, South Concord, and Stockton Valley

Westside church is with West Union Assoc, Larry Waters is pastor

Dewey Cooper is an ordained minister in the association and in 2004 the evangelist for the association.

Almost all United Baptists teach amillenial doctrine. There are some here and there that hold to premillenial though.

The letter from the Old Regulars to the Uniteds should be in the Old Regular Baptist thread. I posted it there a long time ago. It was to try to reintroduce correspondence between the two groups who came from the same mother, Burning Springs, if I remember correctly.

David

 

[Sis. Sarah]

West Union and Letter of Correspondence

Well thanks David. I should have know it was from your research, the letter I mean. I will look for it in the Old Regular section then. You have been a great help as usual. Sis. Sarah

 

[Bethelassoc]

West Union

Sarah,

I have a correction to make; my minute book is from 2003.

Also I have an addition. I was glancing through the minutes earlier and found on the inside back cover the constitution of the association. The last item, XI, states, "We do not allow Premillenium doctrine in our churches."

David

 

[Sis. Sarah]

West Union

Well it would appear then as of 2003 those in this association were still holding to the amillenium faith and order. I am wondering when the change actually came about. Do you know if any United Baptist in history has helped organize another church that taught/preached millenium reign if they did not also? I am wondering since you stated that the South Concord and West Union are in fellowship still. I know all the United around here do fellowship with Bethel but how can they if their is such a difference in doctrine. Or in other words, how serious an issue has millenium doctrice been down through the years? I notice it is not something mentioned in the break between the Old Regurlars and the United Baptists in the Black Rock Address. So I wonder when this doctrine came into the United's? As far as I know, there were founding members of Bethel who believed it, yet it was organized by the non-teaching/preaching/believing other churches. And since this time Bethel has helped organized other chruches that state they do not hold to it. Well, just wondering, has there ever been a divide over this doctrine written down? This is why I orginally asked about the 1982/83 minutes from West Union. Maybe you or someone else on here knows of some other major division over this issue. I just know it was a major issue to our old pastor, Simon Waters, and it still is for some of us. We do not believe it of course, but those who do can speak too. I don't want to debate it, just know what the difference between the fellowship standards are.

 

[Sis. Sarah]

Let me clarify the question

Has pre/post whatever other than amillenium reign doctrine ever been considered more than just a difference in custom, but a real difference in doctrine, such as heresy, among the Baptists that anyone knows of in a major historical event? Or do you all think it has just been there within the churches, held by some, throughout history? That sounds better.

 

[rlvaughn]

Sis. Sarah, a couple of things, though they probably don't help. I looked at the minutes I have, and did not find a name or address of the printer. I also checked Albert Wardin's Tennessee Baptists: A Comprehensive History 1779-1999. He mentioned West Union (there were 23 churches in TN, I believe) but had no further detail on them.

One thought I had (but it may be off-base) -- is it possible that sometime in the past their was a split in West Union and two associations existed by that name?

 

[Sis. Sarah]

West Union and split

Thank you RL. Maybe we are getting somewhere. I am not sure how many splits there could have been. Maybe there was one before the one I am thinking of? No printer listed. Is this common? Like I said, this is new to me but I have some Old Regular minute books here and they do not list a printer either. Perhaps the churches did not want to have commercial information on them? This is fine but it sure makes research difficult. I have been trying to find some old time members to ask about this but the problem is if Pastor Waters did walk out alone and all the other churches continued to fellowship with Bethel and the millennium reign folks then I am pretty much left with one side of the story. The truth is, I am trying to find out how the Uniteds got so far from the Old Regular style of services. After learning about the Old Regulars it is so clear that our old pastor Waters was at least 90% Old Regular and only 10% United. Ha! Ha! This may sound like a funny way to put it but I do believe it. The one thing he had no patience for was millenium reign doctrine, though I can say he was a man that showed patience beyond explanation for all and would work with just about anyone who loved the Lord. We have on our website, www.wheelingunitedbaptist.org (we have not had the opportunity to get the domain name changed yet from united) a book I wrote with him, The Call. He was not a perfect man, just an honest man that did his best and would help anyone. I miss him a lot.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Do you know if any United Baptist in history has helped organize another church that taught/preached millenium reign if they did not also? I am wondering since you stated that the South Concord and West Union are in fellowship still. I know all the United around here do fellowship with Bethel but how can they if their is such a difference in doctrine. Or in other words, how serious an issue has millenium doctrice been down through the years? I notice it is not something mentioned in the break between the Old Regurlars and the United Baptists in the Black Rock Address. So I wonder when this doctrine came into the United's? As far as I know, there were founding members of Bethel who believed it, yet it was organized by the non-teaching/preaching/believing other churches. And since this time Bethel has helped organized other chruches that state they do not hold to it. Well, just wondering, has there ever been a divide over this doctrine written down? This is why I orginally asked about the 1982/83 minutes from West Union. Maybe you or someone else on here knows of some other major division over this issue.

It's always possible that a church organized has a different eschatology than it's mother but it's not probable. It wouldn't make sense, although it shouldn't be a bar to fellowship. I know of a church that most likely holds to millenial reign, is United Baptist, and is independent.

Has pre/post whatever other than amillenium reign doctrine ever been considered more than just a difference in custom, but a real difference in doctrine, such as heresy, among the Baptists that anyone knows of in a major historical event? Or do you all think it has just been there within the churches, held by some, throughout history?

United Baptists, like any other church, have established articles of faith, but if we can be honest, we'd have to admit that not everyone believes the same way. IMO, millenial teachings are so secondary at best that it isn't an issue unless someone makes it an issue. If a preacher bases his whole ministry on such a topic (why? It's just an example) then there would be problems that needed to be ironed out, especially the fact he needed to read more of the Bible than end times teachings......but you know that stuff is a money maker. Somebody will hold to it, in any church even Old Regular. That's always a possibility.

The truth is, I am trying to find out how the Uniteds got so far from the Old Regular style of services. After learning about the Old Regulars it is so clear that our old pastor Waters was at least 90% Old Regular and only 10% United. Ha! Ha! This may sound like a funny way to put it but I do believe it. The one thing he had no patience for was millenium reign doctrine, though I can say he was a man that showed patience beyond explanation for all and would work with just about anyone who loved the Lord.

Style of service is a preference. I find it to be more of a geological property than anything else. United Baptists closest to Old Regulars (southeast KY to be more specific) continue in the same traditions than those, let's say, out here in MO that have never heard of lined out singing. It truly is an identity with Old Regulars and with Uniteds of the same bloodlines, but that's in my way of thinking.

David

 

[Sis. Sarah]

First split over the millennium reign doctrine

Hey you all, I found out when the first split over the millennium reign doctrine was. I don't know why it didn't come to me before as I was reading through my Jewish history (natural history). Anyway, Elder Mike Slone preached on it a few weeks ago I believe it was (this doctrine) and it came to me then. The very first split came when the Jewish people of the time refused to believe that Jesus is the Christ because they wanted, and some still today, to reign naturally in this world. I am a Zionist, but a Spiritual Zionist though I love my heritage for it is one of true human struggle, sometimes wrong and sometimes right in this natural world. But the best part is that my Savior came through the lowely and meek! God Bless,

 

[old regular]

United Baptist

The United Baptist name was used by almost all Baptist in Ky,N.C,Va after the Regulars and Separates merged in these states, many of the associations, that call themselves Old Regular,and Primitive today carried the name United, there were new things coming into the Baptist mission boards,altar calls,etc...this caused a disatisfaction among several of the associations, they began to use the name Regular,and Primitive some who took the name Regular had belonged to associations in the east with that name and were trying to make a statement that they were of the original stock,but alas some of them began to depart, so the the word old was added to the title to show they were the original Regular Baptist who had roots in the the old Philadelphia Assn., the name Primitive became popular with associations that had split with the Regulars over'' doctrine'' They called themselves the Regular Primitive Baptist also meaning first or original.The United Baptist Associations had correspondence with the Old Regulars those who held to the old ways but this ended when the Uniteds started allowing Secret Orders to be retained in the church.Why hope and knowledge was debated among them secret order was the main problem,this is also true of the Burning Springs Regular Primitives which kept correspondence with the New Salem even after the absolute split ,it was not doctrine but secret order.United,Regular and Primitive have the same origins but have in some cases" morphed" into different bodies.The Regulars of North Carolinia would be closer in some cases to the Midwestern Uniteds while the Primitive in this same area would have more in common with the Old Regulars( Hard Side).Lined singing was done in almost all Baptist Churches at one time even some of the Brethern and Methodist did also. Elder Slone