Universalism a strawman argument.

[Baptist Believer]

Not according to verse 46, ". . . these shall go away into everlasting punishment: . . ."
Verse 41, αιωνιον. Verse 46, αιωνιον.

That does not change the fact that the fire is what is described as everlasting. However, the punishment described in v.46 is everlasting in its consequences. It is final.

 

[37818]

That does not change the fact that the fire is what is described as everlasting. However, the punishment described in v.46 is everlasting in its consequences. It is final.

Revelation 14:11, describes this, ". . . and they have no rest day nor night, . . ." And in Mark 9:48, ". . . Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. . . ."
[Is your view as an annihilationist? Or what?]

 

[AustinC]

Denial of what? The denial of the denial of the truth of the general redemption, Hebrews 2:9, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 John 2:2. You truly do not understand Revelation 3:5 or Mark 10:14-15 having to do with John 3:3-4.

There is particular redemption. Any universal redemption (which is what you are presenting) is universal payment for all sins, including the sin of unbelief. That makes your position universalism.
Yet, you deny this, which means you must have a form of particular redemption. But, you deny that as well. The conclusion is that you don't know what you are talking about and ultimately you just want to be the one who determines your destiny rather than God determining your destiny. It all comes down to you demanding to have control.

 

[Silverhair]

Perhaps if you read the context, you would see what the preacher to the Hebrews is saying.

*Hebrews 2:9-13*

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, “I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.” And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Behold, I and the children God has given me.”

Note the the "everyone" in verse 9 is clarified in 10-13 so we see that it is everyone the Father has given to Jesus.

*Mark 10:13-16*
And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

In Mark 10 we don't see the process of salvation. There is no General Redemption taught here. You still have to deal with "But God..."

*John 3:1-19*
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesusby night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againhe cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youmust be born again.’ The windblows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but youdo not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

Just as you did not cause your physical birth, so you did not cause your spiritual birth. Like Nicodemus, you are struggling with this truth.

Are you going to say that only the so called elect were/are sinners? Or as Rom 5:7 says “the ungodly”. So what about the rest of humanity, were they not sinners, not ungodly? Calvinists keep insisting that Christ only died for them. But the bible does not make that distinction rather it is just the opposite. 1Ti_2:6 gave Himself a ransom for all.


This is another true that you fail to accept

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Note it says those that believe not those that have been pre-selected to believe. You, Austin, are struggling with this truth

 

[Silverhair]

There is particular redemption. Any universal redemption (which is what you are presenting) is universal payment for all sins, including the sin of unbelief. That makes your position universalism.
Yet, you deny this, which means you must have a form of particular redemption. But, you deny that as well. The conclusion is that you don't know what you are talking about and ultimately you just want to be the one who determines your destiny rather than God determining your destiny. It all comes down to you demanding to have control.

Austin you continue to read the bible through your philosophy of calvinism. You have placed calvinism as your authority over the bible. You deny or twist clear scripture when it does not agree with your view and when that pointed out to you you claim that others just do not understand the bible.

 

[JonC]

Not according to verse 46, ". . . these shall go away into everlasting punishment: . . ."
Verse 41, αιωνιον. Verse 46, αιωνιον.

I do not hold annihilation as correct, but these verses do not definitely prove the view wrong. It depends on whether you view this as a description of the punishment or as the length of time one will experience the punishment.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Revelation 14:11, describes this, ". . . and they have no rest day nor night, . . ." And in Mark 9:48, ". . . Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. . . ."
[Is your view as an annihilationist? Or what?]

Conditional mortality (sometimes called annihilationism by opponents).

The Mark 9:48 citation of Isaiah 66:24 explicitly teaches the destruction/death of the wicked.

 

[37818]

Conditional mortality (sometimes called annihilationism by opponents).

I too believe in the mortality of the soul.

The Mark 9:48 citation of Isaiah 66:24 explicitly teaches the destruction/death of the wicked.

You have an unBiblical understanding of those passages. Regarding Christ, Psalms 22:6, Isaiah 53:10.

 

[37818]

There is particular redemption. Any universal redemption (which is what you are presenting) is universal payment for all sins, including the sin of unbelief. That makes your position universalism.

Not my view. To insist I believe what I do not believe is not honest.

 

[37818]

I do not hold annihilation as correct, but these verses do not definitely prove the view wrong. It depends on whether you view this as a description of the punishment or as the length of time one will experience the punishment.

The same word is used for eternal life. So everyone would then come to an end. Christian universalism is not logical.

 

[JonC]

The same word is used for eternal life. So everyone would then come to an end. Christian universalism is not logical.

That isn't what I mean.

I mean the word could be used to describe the punishment.

The words could be used to describe the finality of judgment rather than duration.

I am not declaring this the case, but it is possible. Annihilationism has been around for a very long time (Justin Martyr, Arnobius). Even among scholars who don't share the view there is recognition it is a possible interpretation (e.g., FF Bruce).

My point is not that it is correct, but that there are no actual proof texts against it.

 

[tyndale1946]

The same word is used for eternal life. So everyone would then come to an end. Christian universalism is not logical.

Universalism applies to only one thing... SIN!... Salvation applies to only one thing... GOD!... His Mercy and Grace, which none deserve... Brother Glen

It's not what you did for him, it's what he did for YOU!

 

[37818]

That isn't what I mean.

I mean the word could be used to describe the punishment.

The words could be used to describe the finality of judgment rather than duration.

I am not declaring this the case, but it is possible. Annihilationism has been around for a very long time (Justin Martyr, Arnobius). Even among scholars who don't share the view there is recognition it is a possible interpretation (e.g., FF Bruce).

My point is not that it is correct, but that there are no actual proof texts against it.

As a temporary punishment is how Universalism interprets it.

 

[37818]

Universalism applies to only one thing... SIN!... Salvation applies to only one thing... GOD!... His Mercy and Grace, which none deserve... Brother Glen

It's not what you did for him, it's what he did for YOU!

Not Biblical. Or explain.

 

[AustinC]

As a temporary punishment is how Universalism interprets it.

So, Roman Catholicism, which also promotes general redemption. 37, look at the company you are keeping by supporting general redemption.

 

[37818]

So, Roman Catholicism, which also promotes general redemption. 37, look at the company you are keeping by supporting general redemption.

You deny the know so salvation by denial of the Biblical general redemption with the accusation of Universalism and Catholicism.
Remember John 8:44, ". . . the Devil . . . from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. . . ."

 

[AustinC]

You deny the know so salvation by denial of the Biblical general redemption with the accusation of Universalism and Catholicism.
Remember John 8:44, ". . . the Devil . . . from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. . . ."

" know so salvation?"

You are entirely dependent on God alone to save, yet you are promoting your own reasoning as the means of knowing you are saved. Are you unaware that the heart is desperately wicked. Your reasoning could point to hell if you rely on it.

 

[Benjamin]

Yes, the accusation of a belief in Universalism by a Determinist is often attempted through a false dilemma leading to a strawman argument fallacy.

 

[Silverhair]

" know so salvation?"

You are entirely dependent on God alone to save, yet you are promoting your own reasoning as the means of knowing you are saved. Are you unaware that the heart is desperately wicked. Your reasoning could point to hell if you rely on it.

Austin read these words and then explain what they say.
Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Man can know they are saved or these words are meaningless and the offer of salvation is a fraud.

 

[AustinC]

Yes, the accusation of a belief in Universalism by a Determinist is often attempted through a false dilemma leading to a strawman argument fallacy.

It's not a false dilemma. It is, however, people not willing to actually take their theory to its ultimate conclusion. Your unwillingness to be honest with your position is the problem you will not entertain.