Universalism

In the Bible, sin means "to miss the mark". For example,

Judges 20:16 (ESV)
Among all these were 700 chosen men who were left-handed; every one could sling a stone at a hair and not miss.

Translated literally this verse ends with "and not sin".

If one does not come to Jesus in repentance and faith, then he is definitely "missing the mark". Therefore, he is sinning. Otherwise, he would not be cast into Hell for any length of time whatsoever.

 

I know, Yelsew. You and I have been through this in another forum. You can't honestly sing songs like "Jesus Saves" or "Nothing But the Blood" or "There is Wonder Working Power in the Blood". I am afraid your faith is in your faith.

 

Very good point, Yelsew! Nevermind the technicalities of defining what sin is, this point sums up the situation quite nicely, I believe. God's righteous standard has been met in the atoning work of Christ, and if one rejects that he will have to spend eternity separated from Him for his unbelief.

Neal

 

Ken,

Why do you support the notion that anyone is cast into the lake of fire? If Christ paid for all sin for everyone, including rejection of Him, and that equals salvation, why would anyone need to go there for any length of time? Why would it need to be remedial? Isn't it already paid for? Why are they suffering for it, for any length of time, again?

Neal

[ May 25, 2003, 02:18 AM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

Romans 5.17-19 cannot be made to say what you want it to say, consider vs. 19 as it restricts the all you emphasize.

19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The truth is it is more damaging to the Grace of God that He would have sent His Only Begotten Son into the World to suffer and die, only to have some people who would after spending a period of time in suffering for themselves, become saints, this is vanity.

Bro. Dallas

 

Are you sure you want to make that charge. What if I am correct and you are wrong. Then you are the one, by your definition, who is sinning.

 

I don't subscribe to the idea of a "mother church". That sounds rather Roman Catholic to my ears.

 

Ken,

Here it is as simple as I can explain it because I have been pondering it a bit.

God offers us a free gift, eternal life through His Son, Jesus Christ. The stipulation for this gift is we have to receive it by faith in Jesus Christ. This gift is offered to everyone. It includes the atonement for sins, everyone's. I see the rejection of this gift as outside of the scope of this gift. You, on the other hand, are trying to put the rejection of this gift inside of this gift. But you can't do that, because the decision before us is whether or not to accept the gift. The rejection or reception of this gift is not included in the gift itself, that is nonsense. God did not say that if we reject His gift that it is okay anyhow. No, that is the matter at hand and determines whether or not our names are in the Book of Life. If the rejection of this gift is included in the gift, then the offer is absolutely meaningless and God is wasting His time and ours. It is a cruel game since the offer of this gift is not true. Is rejection of Christ being disobedient to God? Yes. But it is not in the scope of the gift offered to us and the proposition that God has laid out before us.

Neal

 

I don't know. It may simply be a matter of the difficulty of throwing off tradition even when tradition is wrong. It wasn't exactly easy for me to leave the Church of Christ denomination even after I learned that it teaches a false soteriology, given that I was reared in that denomination and was 43 years old at the time.

There are Christian universalists who don't believe that people are thrown in the lake of fire. But I haven't been convinced of that.

Of course, all theological viewpoints that subscribe to the idea of eternal torture have difficulty with why would God create people knowing that He is going to torture them forever and ever and ever and ever... even though they may have only personally sinned for one hour to maybe 100 years. Unless of course a person who holds to eternal torture doesn't have a heart and doesn't care what happens to other people as long as he is saved. Otherwise, I would think that those holding to the eternal torture idea would have difficulty sleeping at night based on what they believe will happen to billions and billions of their fellow human beings, even maybe to some of their family members. And they probably cannot think of anything else during the their waking hours except about will happen to billions and billions of other people.

 

Why is this difficult? (Before you say it, I have a heart, despite what you imply in your post. Concern for the lost is one of my biggest motivating factors.) God did not create a bunch of robots. He desires willful worshippers. He could have created robots, but He didn't. Rather, He made us in His image. This includes reason and the ability to make a choice. Willful surrender to Him is the ultimate worship, not a bunch of robots. Jesus was obedient to the Father. Could Jesus not have been? I think so. But I think that He was able not to sin, not not able to sin. Obedience and surrender willfully is the most worshipful thing that we can do. Only then can God be properly worshipped because then His worth-ship is truly recognized. I have no difficulty with this.

Neal

 

Thanks, Neal. I understand your point. But Christ's atonement for the sins of the world is not the gift. The gift is salvation. And Christ provided salvation, not merely an opportunity for salvation. The Bible also teaches that repentance and faith are gifts from God.

Romans 5:15 (ESV)
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

Romans 6:23 (ESV)
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But I fear that our discussion is drowning in semantics and nuances.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

I agree. I thought I made that clear. To me, eternal life = salvation.

I just had to throw this in here. Salvation is not universal like the sin problem that everyone has (Rom. 3:23).

Exactly. Is a gift automatically forced on someone? I think not.

Which I think are extremely important for a proper interpretation. What is the nature of a gift? Why in the world are we offered a proposition by God if it is not real? Why are we commanded to repent if it really doesn't matter? I think we are just getting to the heart of the issue.

God bless and thanks for the discussion. I have definitely enjoyed it!

Neal

 

You are correct, He didn't. The Bible never likens people created by God to robots. The Bible likens people to clay molded by the fingers of the Creator.

Yes, we willingly worship God by the power of the Holy Spirit. We are not forced against our will. The Holy Spirit regenerates us in the new birth as we are born from above and we willingly come to Jesus in repentance and faith.

Psalm 110:3 (ESV)
Your people will offer themselves freely
on the day of your power,
in holy garments;
from the womb of the morning,
the dew of your youth will be yours.

 

Ahh...your Calvinistic tendencies are showing! Regeneration before faith......well, that is for another forum. It is not so willing if everyone is irresistably drawn. There is no choice then.

Neal