Universalism

[KenH]

In the Bible, sin means "to miss the mark". For example,

Judges 20:16 (ESV)
Among all these were 700 chosen men who were left-handed; every one could sling a stone at a hair and not miss.

Translated literally this verse ends with "and not sin".

If one does not come to Jesus in repentance and faith, then he is definitely "missing the mark". Therefore, he is sinning. Otherwise, he would not be cast into Hell for any length of time whatsoever.

 

[KenH]

I know, Yelsew. You and I have been through this in another forum. You can't honestly sing songs like "Jesus Saves" or "Nothing But the Blood" or "There is Wonder Working Power in the Blood". I am afraid your faith is in your faith.

 

[neal4christ]

Let us not be confused, Jesus death on the cross that paid the penalty for the sins of the world, saves no one! Atonement IS NOT salvation! IT IS JUSTIFICATION! Justification is not salvation either, but being justified means that we have no penalty to pay for our own sins.

The Scriptures declare that our salvation comes through our faith and not through our God provided Justification. God saw fit to Justify us by the Blood of his only son so that He would not be compelled to pour out his wrath on us because of our sins.

Very good point, Yelsew! Nevermind the technicalities of defining what sin is, this point sums up the situation quite nicely, I believe. God's righteous standard has been met in the atoning work of Christ, and if one rejects that he will have to spend eternity separated from Him for his unbelief.

Neal

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tuor:
If you teach others to sin because of your doctrine, woe unto you.

And where am I teaching anyone to sin? </font>[/QUOTE]Thinking wrongly about the Holy is sin. If you think wrongly about God, then you are subject to think wrongly about his Word!

 

[neal4christ]

Ken,

Why do you support the notion that anyone is cast into the lake of fire? If Christ paid for all sin for everyone, including rejection of Him, and that equals salvation, why would anyone need to go there for any length of time? Why would it need to be remedial? Isn't it already paid for? Why are they suffering for it, for any length of time, again?

Neal

[ May 25, 2003, 02:18 AM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

[Frogman]

Romans 5.17-19 cannot be made to say what you want it to say, consider vs. 19 as it restricts the all you emphasize.

19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The truth is it is more damaging to the Grace of God that He would have sent His Only Begotten Son into the World to suffer and die, only to have some people who would after spending a period of time in suffering for themselves, become saints, this is vanity.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

I challenge you to find any Scripture in the original Hebrew or Greek language in which the Bible was written that teaches eternal torture by God of His creation. You can find it in English translations but not in the original languages. I share the following quotation:

Are you telling us all that the "mother Church" failed to correctly translate the Holy Word of God? And after all these centuries it has not attempted to make the correction?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by KenH:
I know, Yelsew. You and I have been through this in another forum. You can't honestly sing songs like "Jesus Saves" or "Nothing But the Blood" or "There is Wonder Working Power in the Blood". I am afraid your faith is in your faith.

Have no fear for me, KenH, my faith is in GOD, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I hear his Word, and Believe!

You, on the other hand seem willing to believe just about any wind of doctrine. Do I fear for you, no, you claim faith in Jesus Christ, therefore you too, are saved through faith. But don't expect to see everyone saved, for not everyone will be saved, many have no faith in God or in His beloved son!

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Romans 5.17-19 cannot be made to say what you want it to say, consider vs. 19 as it restricts the all you emphasize.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The truth is it is more damaging to the Grace of God that He would have sent His Only Begotten Son into the World to suffer and die, only to have some people who would after spending a period of time in suffering for themselves, become saints, this is vanity.

Bro. Dallas

WOW, WE AGREE on this one!

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Thinking wrongly about the Holy is sin. If you think wrongly about God, then you are subject to think wrongly about his Word!

Are you sure you want to make that charge. What if I am correct and you are wrong. Then you are the one, by your definition, who is sinning.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Are you telling us all that the "mother Church"

I don't subscribe to the idea of a "mother church". That sounds rather Roman Catholic to my ears.

 

[neal4christ]

Ken,

Here it is as simple as I can explain it because I have been pondering it a bit.

God offers us a free gift, eternal life through His Son, Jesus Christ. The stipulation for this gift is we have to receive it by faith in Jesus Christ. This gift is offered to everyone. It includes the atonement for sins, everyone's. I see the rejection of this gift as outside of the scope of this gift. You, on the other hand, are trying to put the rejection of this gift inside of this gift. But you can't do that, because the decision before us is whether or not to accept the gift. The rejection or reception of this gift is not included in the gift itself, that is nonsense. God did not say that if we reject His gift that it is okay anyhow. No, that is the matter at hand and determines whether or not our names are in the Book of Life. If the rejection of this gift is included in the gift, then the offer is absolutely meaningless and God is wasting His time and ours. It is a cruel game since the offer of this gift is not true. Is rejection of Christ being disobedient to God? Yes. But it is not in the scope of the gift offered to us and the proposition that God has laid out before us.

Neal

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Why do you support the notion that anyone is cast into the lake of fire?

I don't know. It may simply be a matter of the difficulty of throwing off tradition even when tradition is wrong. It wasn't exactly easy for me to leave the Church of Christ denomination even after I learned that it teaches a false soteriology, given that I was reared in that denomination and was 43 years old at the time.

There are Christian universalists who don't believe that people are thrown in the lake of fire. But I haven't been convinced of that.

Of course, all theological viewpoints that subscribe to the idea of eternal torture have difficulty with why would God create people knowing that He is going to torture them forever and ever and ever and ever... even though they may have only personally sinned for one hour to maybe 100 years. Unless of course a person who holds to eternal torture doesn't have a heart and doesn't care what happens to other people as long as he is saved. Otherwise, I would think that those holding to the eternal torture idea would have difficulty sleeping at night based on what they believe will happen to billions and billions of their fellow human beings, even maybe to some of their family members. And they probably cannot think of anything else during the their waking hours except about will happen to billions and billions of other people.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Thinking wrongly about the Holy is sin. If you think wrongly about God, then you are subject to think wrongly about his Word!

Are you sure you want to make that charge. What if I am correct and you are wrong. Then you are the one, by your definition, who is sinning. </font>[/QUOTE]So, what else is new, I am a sinner saved through faith in Jesus the Christ!

 

[neal4christ]

all theological viewpoints that subscribe to the idea of eternal torture have difficulty with why would God create people knowing that He is going to torture them forever and ever and ever and ever

Why is this difficult? (Before you say it, I have a heart, despite what you imply in your post. Concern for the lost is one of my biggest motivating factors.) God did not create a bunch of robots. He desires willful worshippers. He could have created robots, but He didn't. Rather, He made us in His image. This includes reason and the ability to make a choice. Willful surrender to Him is the ultimate worship, not a bunch of robots. Jesus was obedient to the Father. Could Jesus not have been? I think so. But I think that He was able not to sin, not not able to sin. Obedience and surrender willfully is the most worshipful thing that we can do. Only then can God be properly worshipped because then His worth-ship is truly recognized. I have no difficulty with this.

Neal

 

[KenH]

Thanks, Neal. I understand your point. But Christ's atonement for the sins of the world is not the gift. The gift is salvation. And Christ provided salvation, not merely an opportunity for salvation. The Bible also teaches that repentance and faith are gifts from God.

Romans 5:15 (ESV)
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

Romans 6:23 (ESV)
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But I fear that our discussion is drowning in semantics and nuances.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

[neal4christ]

But Christ's atonement for the sins of the world is not the gift. The gift is salvation.

I agree. I thought I made that clear. To me, eternal life = salvation.

But the free gift is not like the trespass.

I just had to throw this in here. Salvation is not universal like the sin problem that everyone has (Rom. 3:23).

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Exactly. Is a gift automatically forced on someone? I think not.

But I fear that our discussion is drowning in semantics and nuances.

Which I think are extremely important for a proper interpretation. What is the nature of a gift? Why in the world are we offered a proposition by God if it is not real? Why are we commanded to repent if it really doesn't matter? I think we are just getting to the heart of the issue.

God bless and thanks for the discussion. I have definitely enjoyed it!

Neal

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
God did not create a bunch of robots. He desires willful worshippers.

You are correct, He didn't. The Bible never likens people created by God to robots. The Bible likens people to clay molded by the fingers of the Creator.

Yes, we willingly worship God by the power of the Holy Spirit. We are not forced against our will. The Holy Spirit regenerates us in the new birth as we are born from above and we willingly come to Jesus in repentance and faith.

Psalm 110:3 (ESV)
Your people will offer themselves freely
on the day of your power,
in holy garments;
from the womb of the morning,
the dew of your youth will be yours.

 

[neal4christ]

The Holy Spirit regenerates us in the new birth as we are born from above and we willingly come to Jesus in repentance and faith.

Ahh...your Calvinistic tendencies are showing! Regeneration before faith......well, that is for another forum.

It is not so willing if everyone is irresistably drawn. There is no choice then.

Neal

 

[Yelsew]

Of course, all theological viewpoints that subscribe to the idea of eternal torture have difficulty with why would God create people knowing that He is going to torture them forever and ever and ever and ever... even though they may have only personally sinned for one hour to maybe 100 years. Unless of course a person who holds to eternal torture doesn't have a heart and doesn't care what happens to other people as long as he is saved. Otherwise, I would think that those holding to the eternal torture idea would have difficulty sleeping at night based on what they believe will happen to billions and billions of their fellow human beings, even maybe to some of their family members. And they probably cannot think of anything else during the their waking hours except about will happen to billions and billions of other people.

Here's something to ponder. In the book of Revelation we are told that "this heaven and this earth will pass away", (exist no longer). This heaven and earth includes a Lake of Fire. This "passing away" comes after the millenial reign of Jesus, and the Judgment. Then a new heaven and New earth comes on the scene, and there is no mention of a Hell or a Lake of Fire, because there will be no more sin! Evil and the Evil one, along with all his demons, and all unbelievers were cast into the lake of fire of this "old heaven and earth" realm. Those who were cast into the lake of fire, will simply disappear with the lake of fire when passes away, to be remembered no more.

This new heaven and Earth will not be like the old, there will be no mountains or seas on the new earth. However the new earth must be large enough to support the New Jerusalem that is described as being 12,000 furlongs long, high and wide, a 1500 mile per side cube that descends to the earth. This present earth could not possibly support such a city. The atmosphere of this earth is a mere 150 miles thick. So the new earth would have to be a minimum 1000 times larger than this present earth. The New Jerusalem has a volume of 3,375,000,000 cubic miles.

There will be no marrying or marriage either, because we who are saved through faith are all eternal beings with no need to perpetuate the species. There will also be no faith there, because we will know and thus have no need for faith.