Universalism

[KenH]

The lake of fire is part of the next age, not this age. Therefore, the lake of fire is not a part of this present heaven and earth.

There is no need to discuss my disagreement with your dispensational premillennial eschatology as there are a gazillion eschatological viewpoints and God will bring this age to a close however He chooses to do so, regardless of how we may think it will happen.

I see that you are an annihilationist along the lines of Edward Fudge. I will commend you for that as I like Edward Fudge's teaching a lot. And if I didn't believe in universal reconciliation, I would be an annihilationist. It is certainly a better viewpoint than teaching that God created people so He could torture them forever and ever and ever and ever...

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

[Don]

It is certainly a better viewpoint than teaching that God created people so He could torture them forever and ever and ever and ever...

Oh, I see. You don't like what the Bible has to say about there will be a harvest, and the wheat will be separated from the chaff, and the chaff will be burned forever and ever.

And since you don't like that, it must not be true scripture.

Hence, you are correct.

 

[Eladar]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tuor:
If you teach others to sin because of your doctrine, woe unto you.

And where am I teaching anyone to sin? </font>[/QUOTE]Your doctrine teaches that it doesn't matter what we do. If someone believes that it is OK to sin because of this, you will be teaching someone to sin.

 

[neal4christ]

It is certainly a better viewpoint than teaching that God created people so He could torture them forever and ever and ever and ever...

You only have this problem if you hold that God has predetermined everything and causes everything to happen. That is not the purpose of God creating people, and you know that. Of course, you have your own snag that you run into. If salvation is already done for everyone, why in the world has God gone through all this trouble? If He was going to save everybody in the end why pretend like they have a choice in the matter? Why even allow the fall to happen at all and allow suffering into the world if He has already determined everything. My system does not blame God for being the cause of sin. Yours has no other choice if you believe everything is a result of God's will. Little problem, isn't it?

Neal

 

[GH]

Originally posted by KenH:
In the Bible, sin means "to miss the mark". For example,

Judges 20:16 (ESV)
Among all these were 700 chosen men who were left-handed; every one could sling a stone at a hair and not miss.

Translated literally this verse ends with "and not sin".

If one does not come to Jesus in repentance and faith, then he is definitely "missing the mark". Therefore, he is sinning. Otherwise, he would not be cast into Hell for any length of time whatsoever.

Amen, Ken We ALL miss the mark, that's why we need a Savior. All have sinned and fallen away. All go their own way. All refuse God. All are bound up in unbelief so that God can have mercy on all. I don't see any room for decision-making on the part of man.

Got a question for All of you. If ALL things are possible with God, then is the universal reconciliation of all mankind possible?

We can only seek the answer by asking God more than we can possibly ask or imagine.

Hey, love you all.

GH

 

[Eladar]

Got a question for All of you. If ALL things are possible with God, then is the universal reconciliation of all mankind possible?

Is Universal Damnation possible?

 

[GH]

Yes, I suppose it is, Tuor. But my mind and heart don't want that to be true. I guess you would say that I'm naive and....you may be right. Except I also believe that the scriptures teach the reconcilation of mankind through the blood of Christ.

I also believe that we can ask God directly to show us this truth.

Just as an aside, I looked up "decide" in Webster's this morning. The first meaning is really very beautiful:

To end by giving one side the victory.

You see, friend Tuor, the victory is His and to the Victor go the spoils (Us, All of Us). There is only one Victor and only One who can give victory over sin or anything else you can think of. This keeps in line with the one-sided covenant I'm always talking about. You know, the one where Jesus is the Victor.

Blessings to you and your house in Christ Jesus

In His Victory, GH

 

[Eladar]

My point was not that universal damnation is reality. My point was that the argument that all things are possible is not a good one when it comes to beliefs. I have no doubt that when you read the Bible you believe it teaches universal salvation. It is just the result of the spirit within you. Really, that teaching in itself is not going to lead you or anyone else to hell.

It is the logical conclusion that what we do doesn't matter and chosing to live a sinful lifestyle does not seperate one from God which will lead people to hell.

Woe to those who teach things that end up leading others and/or themselves to hell.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Tuor:
If someone believes that it is OK to sin because of this, you will be teaching someone to sin.

Experientially, I do not find that to be true. I do not believe it is okay for me to sin in the least. If what you say is true, then I should just do whatever I want to do regardless of what God's moral law teaches, but I don't.

Non-Calvinists throw out this straw man and then knock him down all the time, except for the non-Calvinists that believe in the preservation of the saints. When a person is changed by the Holy Spirit and is saved, he still has a sin problem as long as he lives in the flesh in an unredeemed body. That doesn't mean that he doesn't fight against sin in his life.

Practical Christian experience proves your point to be false. Anyone who wants to use the doctrine of the preservation of the saints as an excuse to sin is just using it as an excuse to sin. For them, any old excuse will work.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Tuor:
Woe to those who teach things that end up leading others and/or themselves to hell.

Ditto to you, Tuor. May God preserve you.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
If salvation is already done for everyone, why in the world has God gone through all this trouble? If He was going to save everybody in the end why pretend like they have a choice in the matter? Why even allow the fall to happen at all and allow suffering into the world if He has already determined everything.

Something to consider:

Origin of Sin

Since all things are of God, yet He cannot sin, how did sin originate? All so-called "solutions" which trace sin up a blind alley and stop short of God are neither scriptural nor satisfactory. We know that sin came into the world through one human being, yet who would stop there? Sin did not originate in Adam.

The serpent was in the garden before Adam sinned. Neither is it enough to go beyond Adam and quote "sin is of the devil," or Slanderer, for the Slanderer, just as much as Adam, is a creature, and, as such, originated nothing. There must be an adequate cause for every effect. We only condemn ourselves as theological evolutionists when we trace sin back to a creature and refuse to acknowledge the Creator.

We have, then, a creature, called a Slanderer (Satan), and to him the Scriptures trace back all sin. Our inquiry is now narrowed down to the question whether this one is really a creature, or self-created. If he is not self-existent we are shut up to his creation by the hand of God. If we allow that God created Satan (as such), the crucial question arises, Did God sin in creating the Slanderer? The answer will depend entirely upon the object He had in view. Was it God's will that sin should invade the universe or was it due to an error on His part? Remembering our definition of sin, we must be prepared to say that God has sinned, if the entrance of sin was a mistake.

If God created Satan perfect and his defection was a surprise and a disappointment to God, then there is no use in hiding behind mere words. He failed. He started out to make a flawless creature who turned out bad. There is no one else to charge with this failure but God. But this is all wrong, for God never fails, or sins.

Is there a Purpose for Sin?

Sin has an essential, though transient, part in God's purpose. God made due preparation for it before it came. The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. Creation may reveal some aspects of God's power and wisdom, but His love can be displayed only where sin has sown the seeds of hate. There can be no Savior apart from sin. There can be no reconciliation apart from enmity. God locks up all in stubbornness in order that He may be merciful to all.

Shall God's affections remain forever pent up in His own bosom? Shall He never taste the sweet response of love? Then all He needs is a perfect universe, where His creatures have no need of Him and His gracious ministrations. But if He wants the deep satisfaction of requited love, and desires to impart to His creatures the delicious sense of His fatherly affection, then there must be distance, distress and condemnation, to form the field for the exercise of His favor.

Since sin must enter this scene and play its part, since it is essential to God's purpose, and absolutely under His control; since it will eventually change the universe from cold, independent creatures into a loving family circle, and God from a distant Creator into an affectionate Father, it was by no means a mistake (or sin) on God's part when he created a creature who should not only sin but should scatter it in all creation.

God is the Source of Sin

We have now arrived at the heart of the problem. It was no mistake for God to create Satan, for the adversary did exactly what God had planned he should do. And the astonishing conclusion forces itself upon us that, the moment we try to shift the ultimate origin of sin to Satan, then we are making God a sinner! For, if God did not intend Satan to sin, but he did it on his own initiative, then God missed the mark!

We have been accused of making God "the author of sin," whatever that may mean. We say with all kindness that those who introduce sin into the universe as an unforeseen calamity, an irremediable blot, they are charging God with failure, which is sin. Or if they introduce it surreptitiously, without God's act, making Satan sovereign in sin, then God's failure has been the greatest of all sins.

Jehovah says boldly in Isaiah 54:16 (A.V.) "I created the waster to destroy." To waste, or corrupt, is not simply evil. It is sin. Jehovah does not claim to do it, but to create the one who does. If the corrupter were created by another, or self-existent, then he would be out of hand, and Jehovah could not guarantee immunity to His people, or control the evil and harness it to His purpose. Is 45:7 says, “I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things.”

In Conclusion

No, the source of sin is not Satan, it is God. God created Satan to sin. God introduced sin into this world in order to show forth the full manifestation of His Person. When we understand this point, we can understand why God must save all. If God indeed introduced this whole mess into the world through Satan, then it is up to God to make it right. The premise of the first two and a half chapters of Romans is to show us how utterly impossible it is for man to save himself. Eph 2:8 says that even the faith to believe is from God. My dear brothers and sisters: sin was no accident. God did not just know about it. He willed it. And this truth compels God to make it right. This is the great truth of the “restitution of all things.” In the end, sin will have served its purpose and God will have made all things right again! Glory to His name!

- from www.savior-of-all.com/chap12.html

 

[Eladar]

Ken,

Why are you talking about non-Calvinists as if you were a Calvinist?

I'm not the one teaching that what do is meaningless. I base my beliefs on what Jesus said about actions. You do not.

 

[Don]

From GH:

But my mind and heart don't want that to be true.

And yet a second indication that the supporters of this doctrine aren't basing it on true scripture, but on emotions....

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Tuor:
Why are you talking about non-Calvinists as if you were a Calvinist?

Because I is 80% one. Unlike a typical non-Calvinist or a typical Calvinist I am consistent contextually in the way I interpret the word "all" in the Bible. As Neal said, my position is taking Calvinism to its logical conclusion. Just like if non-Calvinists are consistent, they must embrace open theism.

But I realize that consistency in interpretation is not a hallmark of the vast majority of Christians.

 

[neal4christ]

No, the source of sin is not Satan, it is God. God created Satan to sin. God introduced sin into this world in order to show forth the full manifestation of His Person.

No thank-you, then. That is not my God. If God is the source of sin and willed it, He is not God. That is contrary to His nature. What you have just accused God of is libel against Him. You defined sin as disobeying God's command, yet you say God willed disobedience to His command, something that He cannot do.

Do you really have a problem with eternal punishment? Do you think that is against who God is? You should really look at the God you have created. He is beginning to look like a hideous monster.

sin was no accident. God did not just know about it. He willed it. And this truth compels God to make it right. This is the great truth of the “restitution of all things.” In the end, sin will have served its purpose and God will have made all things right again!

I see you subscribe to a greater good theodicy of some sense. Evil is the privation of good. God is good, thus God cannot be the source of sin and evil. He can do nothing that is contrary to His character. I can't believe you would hold to Calvinism to the extent of creating this horrible God, and then say you worship Him!

Just like if non-Calvinists are consistent, they must embrace open theism.

No, see this is where you are mistaken. You are guilty of bifurcation. You have created only two options. Why are these the only two? There is a happy medium that does not either create a monster or a wimp as a God. You should check out middle knowledge. God is not sitting in heaven wringing His hands as to what will happen next. Neither is He a cruel dictator. He is sovereign and omnipotent while at the same time allowing His creatures the ability to make decisions. Your God is too small. The God of open theism is too small. Think bigger, my friend. Think bigger. Your God and the God of open theism are opposites, yet equally distorted. Both are not the God that is revealed in Scripture. Both sides have to hold to things that are contrary to the nature of God just to hold their system together. Both Gods are weak, and both views are very dangerous. Wake up, my friend.

Neal

[ May 25, 2003, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

[GH]

Originally posted by Don:
From GH: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />But my mind and heart don't want that to be true.

And yet a second indication that the supporters of this doctrine aren't basing it on true scripture, but on emotions.... </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Don,

We haven't spoken in a long time. I hope all is well with you.

One day back in March of 1985 while reading scripture I was confronted with the most incredible love that I have ever experienced. I knew that Christ had died for my sins. From that day to this we (the Lord and I) have been in a love relationship unparalled by anything else in my life. He has taken me from a frightened, unloving, insecure woman and brought me through many very hard and difficult situations. In this process, I have never wanted to be anywhere but in His loving and capable hands. He has prooven His faithfulness to me over and over. Words cannot express the depth of feeling and emotion (bliss) I have experienced in the presence of our great God. I have been faithless to Him, but He has NEVER let me go. This feeling, as you call it, drives me to do my best, to be the best human being I can be - because of that LOVE that was shown me. He has taken me down a path that I would have NEVER chosen for myself. And yet....I walk it in safety, knowing that He is with me. This is what I want to give to others. To point the way to light and love and a relationship with the living, loving God. That we may know Him is my daily prayer for all people everywhere.

Jesus Christ, the Savior of mankind, especially those who believe. THIS command and teach.

May I do it with love and humility. And may He be glorified and magnified in the words I say.

Blessings to you and your house

In His Love, GH

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
You should really look at the God you have created. He is beginning to look like a hideous monster.

The true God of the Bible saves and restores all of His creation and you deem God to be a hideous monster. What an amazing thing for you to say.

I guess the idea of your God torturing His own creation forever and ever and ever and ever... (the vast majority of which never even heard the gospel message, never even had a chance to reject or come to Christ during their lifetime)is just ducky with you.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

[neal4christ]

The true God of the Bible saves and restores all of His creation and you deem God to be a hideous monster. What an amazing thing for you to say.

The true God of the Bible is holy, righteous, and love and has created man in His image. You attribute sin to this awesome God. What an amazing thing for you to say.

(Never mind it is logically impossible for God to be the source of sin! How can the sinless be responsible for sin?)

(the vast majority of which never even heard the gospel message, never even had a chance to reject or come to Christ during their lifetime)

Read over Romans 1 and 2. I believe that if someone responds positively to God He will send the necessary means for them to understand the gospel.

Alas, I guess we are at an impasse. You will not deal with the issues and problems with your view. I have tried to address the ones you have brought up, but you do not. If you are satisfied with looking at the Bible and seeing it as a less than accurate picture of reality, then have at it my friend. Thank-you for causing me to think my position through and strengthening it for me, it truly is appreciated.

Neal

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
1) You attribute sin to this awesome God.

2)Thank-you for causing me to think my position through and strengthening it for me, it truly is appreciated.

1)I have never done such a thing. God created Satan didn't He? And Satan sinned. God created Adam and Eve didn't He? And Adam and Eve sinned.

Are you saying that God didn't know this would happen?

2)And I must return the thank you. I have been having some difficulties accepting the truth of universal salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus during the past few months and standing up for it. Interacting with you has helped to plant my feet once again on solid ground in believing this Biblical hope of God restoring all of His creation. You have performed a valuable service for me.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
I believe that if someone responds positively to God He will send the necessary means for them to understand the gospel.

You see there's another difference in our theologies. You have a God that sits back and must wait for His creation to respond before He can act. Your position is not far from that of Deism, where God just sits back and sees how things play out. Actually, it also makes you not far from open theism.

The God of the Bible, whom I worship, is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-present. My God acts, not reacts, toward His creation.