Universalism

[Don]

From GH:

Jesus Christ, the Savior of mankind, especially those who believe. THIS command and teach.

And what do we teach especially those who refuse to believe? Who especially reject Jesus and His love?

That it's okay, Jesus loves them anyway, and there is a spot in heaven for them even though they reject it?

Jesus doesn't say that in His book....

 

[GH]

Originally posted by Don:
From GH: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Jesus Christ, the Savior of mankind, especially those who believe. THIS command and teach.

And what do we teach especially those who refuse to believe? Who especially reject Jesus and His love?

That it's okay, Jesus loves them anyway, and there is a spot in heaven for them even though they reject it?

Jesus doesn't say that in His book.... </font>[/QUOTE]Brother, you DO know that Jesus spoke of judgement to the religious people, don't you?

He came to show the love of the Father. It isn't about rejection, it's about love.

Peace, GH

 

[GH]

His love is so huge. He WANTS us to pray that all will come to a knowledge of the truth:


1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

[GH]

Originally posted by Tuor:
My point was not that universal damnation is reality. My point was that the argument that all things are possible is not a good one when it comes to beliefs. I have no doubt that when you read the Bible you believe it teaches universal salvation. It is just the result of the spirit within you. Really, that teaching in itself is not going to lead you or anyone else to hell.

It is the logical conclusion that what we do doesn't matter and chosing to live a sinful lifestyle does not seperate one from God which will lead people to hell.

Woe to those who teach things that end up leading others and/or themselves to hell.

Tuor, let's not be DE-Tuored here. The Spirit is able to make one stand. Brother, you just don't want to sin when you've been confronted with the Spirit of the Living God!

Christ sets the captive free and leads us OUT of captivity. Go and tell the Good News, Tuor, and stop preaching sin and hell.

IT IS HIS KINDNESS THAT BRINGS US TO REPENTENCE.

Blessings upon you

GH

 

[neal4christ]

Are you saying that God didn't know this would happen?

No. Have you actually read anything I posted? Check out middle knowledge, it will help you.

Interacting with you has helped to plant my feet once again on solid ground in believing this Biblical hope of God restoring all of His creation.

Well, it is not Biblical, it is more of Ken's hope. I don't know how you are more grounded. You really haven't dealt with the problems I have laid out to you, especially from Scripture. You seem to just ignore it. Do you follow Berkeley in philosophy? You sure seem to, if you don't perceive something it must not really exist. Scripture is there that is absolutely contrary to your position for which you have no adequate response. Thus your view is not acceptable, seeing that you do not address the contrary evidence satisfactorily.

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

He WANTS us to pray that all will come to a knowledge of the truth

Makes no sense if it has no impact anyway. God must just want us to go through the motions.

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

You have a God that sits back and must wait for His creation to respond before He can act. Your position is not far from that of Deism, where God just sits back and sees how things play out. Actually, it also makes you not far from open theism.

Ken,

I have tried to be nice to you. Why do you intentionally misrepresent what I believe? I have already addressed open theism and my relation to it. Check out middle knowledge and counterfactuals and you will understand more of what I believe. Until then, please don't tell me what I believe.

By the way, what I believe is no where near close to deism. Look it up first to see what it means. Before you tell me what I believe know what you are talking about. I have never once affirmed that God absent from His creation, which is what deism is, and you know this. You know that I don't believe that God merely sits back and watches what happens. You know the opposite is true from looking at my responses concerning prayer. God is both proactive and reactive. And there is nothing that surprises Him, He knows everything, including counterfactuals. I can't believe you would stoop to intentional misrepresentation.

Neal

[ May 25, 2003, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

[neal4christ]

1)I have never done such a thing.

Ken, did you not quote this supporting your position?

No, the source of sin is not Satan, it is God. God created Satan to sin. God introduced sin into this world in order to show forth the full manifestation of His Person. When we understand this point, we can understand why God must save all. If God indeed introduced this whole mess into the world through Satan, then it is up to God to make it right. The premise of the first two and a half chapters of Romans is to show us how utterly impossible it is for man to save himself. Eph 2:8 says that even the faith to believe is from God. My dear brothers and sisters: sin was no accident. God did not just know about it. He willed it. And this truth compels God to make it right. This is the great truth of the “restitution of all things.” In the end, sin will have served its purpose and God will have made all things right again! Glory to His name!

You want to rethink whether you attributed sin to Almighty God?

Neal

P.S. My position does not attribute sin to God or say that He did not know it would happen. Your position mandates that God had to will sin, thus be the source of it. Mine does not. I propose that this is the best possible situation with other beings with the power of choice. Did God know it would happen? Yes. Is God the source of sin? Can't be, He wouldn't be God. Sin is the result of beings with the power of choice.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Do you follow Berkeley in philosophy?... seeing that you do not address the contrary evidence satisfactorily.

I do not know who Berkeley is.

I apologize that my debating skills are not up to your level. I can only use the limited skills that I have.

You are obviously better than I am at wielding the weapons of debate.

For the time being at least I am withdrawing from the debate field of war.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

[GH]

God must just want us to go through the motions.

Neal [/QB][/QUOTE]

Neal, that's the most asinine thing I ever heard anyone say on these boards. Do you think so little of that scripture? So be it.

Love in Him, GH

 

[Eladar]

Christ sets the captive free and leads us OUT of captivity. Go and tell the Good News, Tuor, and stop preaching sin and hell.

From an extremist position, a moderate position must surely appear extreme.

 

[neal4christ]

Do you think so little of that scripture? So be it.

Do you think so little of God? If you could explain what prayer is for other than just being commanded to do it, I would truly appreciate it. If it is for nothing other than because we have to, you lose the point of prayer.

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

I apologize that my debating skills are not up to your level. I can only use the limited skills that I have. You are obviously better than I am at wielding the weapons of debate.

There is no need to apologize. I am not trying to imply anything or to try to act like I am better. I just want a satisfactory response to the large amount of evidence contrary to your position. As yet, you have not really addressed it much. I am not a good debater by any means. But for this topic, it is not debate tactics, it is logic and evidence that stand looming over the universalist position.

I apologize if I have either explicitly or implicitly put you down, Ken. I have tried hard not to attack you, but to engage your position. I look forward to seeing you later.

Neal

 

[GH]

Originally posted by Tuor:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Christ sets the captive free and leads us OUT of captivity. Go and tell the Good News, Tuor, and stop preaching sin and hell.

From an extremist position, a moderate position must surely appear extreme. </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, Tuor, I don't know what that means. For me there are only two positions: redeemed and you know it and redeemed and you don't know it.

Fear not, fear not, fear not. I'll stick with being led out of captivity through Christ.

Peace on you, GH

 

[GH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Do you think so little of that scripture? So be it.

Do you think so little of God? If you could explain what prayer is for other than just being commanded to do it, I would truly appreciate it. If it is for nothing other than because we have to, you lose the point of prayer.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]How about exhorted to do it?

 

[Don]

from GH:

Brother, you DO know that Jesus spoke of judgement to the religious people, don't you?

He came to show the love of the Father. It isn't about rejection, it's about love.

Peace, GH

Yup, I do know that He came to show the love of the Father, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And yet, he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

That's what you would deny, GH: That Jesus even said this, much less that it's true. Unfortunately, that verse--Jesus' own words--do speak of rejection.

Deny it all you want. It'll still be there when you're done denying it.

I worship a God who doesn't want anyone to perish, so He sent His only begotten son to die on the cross for us. Yet even though He doesn't want anyone to perish, He won't accept those that don't accept Him. That's what the Bible teaches, plain and simple.

 

[Me2]

Yup, I do know that He came to show the love of the Father, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And yet, he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I dont see those statements in their presented context as universal but to a very specific group of people.

God chooses whom will carry his seed. We accept Jesus as propitiator or refuse his intercession on our behalf. the statements were to two groups of peoples within Gods family.
those who would be obedient to christ as their propitiator and to those of the disobedient not choosing to humble themselves and accept Jesus christ as their propitiator.

universalism does not reflect its application here for it specifically points out "those within the family". as is such with many other scriptures.

the world outside the family of God is not asked to believe in jesus as their christ and propitiator. Only those who have already received the fathers "seed". of those. some believe in jesus as their christ. some dont.

Me2

 

[Yelsew]

Me2,

I dont see those statements in their presented context as universal but to a very specific group of people.

Just as "whosoever believeth" is a non specific group, the "he that believeth nots" is is just as non specific. Scriptures never reveal the size or identity of either group. It is not for man to know.

The facts:
God's Grace covers ALL
God's Love is for ALL
God's Mercy is for ALL
God's Justice is for ALL
God's Atonement is For ALL
God's Desire is for ALL
God's Wrath is for those who refuse to believe, confess and repent.
God's Salvation is for those who believe, Confess and repent.

"ALL" is specific
"For those who" is non specific.

 

[GH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Me2, </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I dont see those statements in their presented context as universal but to a very specific group of people.

Just as "whosoever believeth" is a non specific group, the "he that believeth nots" is is just as non specific. Scriptures never reveal the size or identity of either group. It is not for man to know.

The facts:
God's Grace covers ALL
God's Love is for ALL
God's Mercy is for ALL
God's Justice is for ALL
God's Atonement is For ALL
God's Desire is for ALL
God's Wrath is for those who refuse to believe, confess and repent.
God's Salvation is for those who believe, Confess and repent.

"ALL" is specific
"For those who" is non specific. </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Yel, (and Don - for this applies to your post to me as well)

Jesus came to the Israel of God as their long-awaited Messiah. He spoke to them under the law. He showed them a God they did not know. One who loves. The rejection he spoke of surely happened, for they rejected Him. They wanted the law and to stay under the law. They chose darkness over light. This was God's choosing for Paul said that God hardened them. Really, he said that. A partial hardening (for SOME did see Christ as Messiah) occurred for the glory and honor of God. The gospel went out to the gentiles. Paul, our Apostle to the gentiles, taught universal reconciliation.

We're talking about God's Plan unfolding here. His plan and His timing. It ain't over yet. There are ages to come where He will still be reconciling.

BTW, didn't Jesus descend into hell and preach? He holds the keys to death and hades. He chooses to save, reconcile and restore. It is His nature. Though He is rejected - the nation of Israel rejected Him - He does not reject forever. For Paul says in Romans that ALL OF ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.

Yelly, you mentioned earlier on the other board that Thomas didn't see and Jesus said blessed is he who doesn't see but believes. I don't think He was mad at Thomas, do you? The truth is that those who see ARE happy - they are blessed. Aren't you happy because you have not seen, but believe? Christ was making an important distinction, but He didn't condemn Thomas for not believing. The Church has taught incorrectly. Again, go outside the camp (organized Phariasical religious groups) and meet Him one on one. You will come out leaning on the BELOVED.

God bless you in your journey, GH

[ May 26, 2003, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: GH ]

 

[Me2]

I agree with those statements that GH spoke of that the statements were general in nature but specific to only those being spoken towards.

universal statements are purposefully interjected into the bible that cannot be refutted as including all.

yet jesus in the OT spoke to a specific group. the "lost". yet within the lost were still to be the two groups within Gods kingdom.

as in the NT. the specific group were more defined into two catagories. those who could hear were either disobedient (cursed,reprobate) children within the family. and obedient "children" who could more deeply understand Gods messages.

you guys are seeming to confuse even Gods sovereignty and attributes by throwing your misunderstanding of "hell" into your doctrines and all of a sudden all reprobates are destined to die and be seperated from God. (HIS OWN CHILDREN)
when really they are just temporarily following their own flesh and attempting to find and please their God "their way".

"hell" could be referred to as the battleground which contains satan, the Holy spirit, the believers will and the believers old fleshly memories and experiences.
somebody will win and somebody will lose. and we know that God gave us the law to kill our old fleshly desires. that satan is the accusor and temptor, and the Holy spirit is the controlling teacher within this spiritual menagerie.

and still if the person does not contain Gods seed. they dont know a hoot about any of these thing we speak of. there specific terms and descriptors that are only recognized between believers. wether obedient or reprobates.
those were the specific groups. not even mentioning people outside Gods family that were rarely spoken of in the scriptures.

if you guys are stuck on an "all" statement in the NT. mention one or a few at a time and we'll discuss it.
but not throwing out 100 quotes and expecting a serious reply. while all is mentioned at times as the family only (obedient and disobedient).
others are general in natural encompassing all of mankind (and over a multiple span of ages).

Me2

[ May 26, 2003, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]