Universalism

[KenH]

1 Tim. 2:1-7 (ESV)
[1]First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, [2] for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. [3] This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, [4] who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, [6] who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. [7] For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Question: Is is good and pleasing to God to torture His creatures forever and ever and ever and ever... in Hell?

If your answer is "yes", then do you believe that God will suffer in some way forever and ever and ever and ever... as well since it is not His will to torture His creatures forever and ever and ever and ever... ?

If your answer is "no" but you do not believe that God will carry out His will to save all people, then do you believe that God will suffer in some way forever and ever and ever and ever... since He was unable to accomplish His will to save all of His creatures?

 

[neal4christ]

1)Yes, He did. That is why everyone will ultimately be saved.

If you read my posts, you will realize that I agree that Christ took away the sin of the world. But no, they will not all ultimately be saved. Go back to page one and refute my last post on it. I have shown you that people go to hell for rejection of Christ, not their sins.

There is no longer any eternal punishment for sin as Jesus already bore everyone's eternal punishment.

This makes no sense. Isn't Christ in heaven now? How can He suffer eternal punishment? He was the atonement for people's sins.

. That is why if you believe that Jesus paid the price for all sin, then to be consistent you must also believe that all people will ultimately be saved.

Do you not read what I post? Please, go back to page one and deal with my last post. People go to hell for rejecting Christ, not their sins.

I do not use theology based on limited human knowledge to limit whom God saves or when He saves.

Seems God gave us all we need in His Word. You seem to feel that you have the liberty to conjecture about something which you have no justification for other than your emotions.

God uses the suffering in this life to bring us to Jesus, to provide correction in this life, doesn't He? Yes, He does.

Do you believe all suffering is for this purpose? Do you subscribe to a greater good theodicy?

Those who do not come to Jesus based on the suffering in this life will have the suffering ratcheted up in the next age so that they will come to Jesus.

Ah, yes. The good old forced acceptance. Can you point me to some Scripture to support this conjecture?

It is no more a matter of anyone paying for sins that Jesus has already paid for in the next age than it is in this age.

Okay, so they aren't paying for sins (which I agree with). It is for forced reception of Christ, right (which I do not agree with)?

God created us and He is all-wise and more than able to do whatever is necessary to restore all of His creation to His intended purpose.

So God did not fulfill His intentions when He created?

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

Question: Is is good and pleasing to God to torture His creatures forever and ever and ever and ever... in Hell?

I can't answer this question because I do not believe that God 'tortures' His creatures. Hell is eternal separation as a result of rejection of Christ. God is not Hitler. I do not claim this and I wish you would represent my position correctly.

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

since He was unable to accomplish His will to save all of His creatures?

Where has this notion come from that what God desires has to be fulfilled? He desires all to be saved. But He will not force all. Why do you equate desire with fulfillment?

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

You know, I was thinking about this whole topic of universalism on the way home from work tonight. I was wondering what do I lose if I (and those who believe in hell) am wrong? Nothing. If the universalist is right, all will be saved. I may even encourage more people to avoid the temporary punishment of hell since I believed it was eternal and told non-believers that.

However, if the universalist is wrong and I am right, he has a lot to lose. Mainly because, no matter how serious you take God's commandments and such, other people will not be as serious in this life. If you teach them that all will eventually be saved there are bound to be some that will say that they will wait until the afterlife to get their life straight with God. Then that is too late, because you were wrong and those people will be eternally separated from God.

Isn't this just too high risk to take? I have nothing to lose, but the universalist has everything to lose (maybe not personally, but someone else will). And isn't this magnified when the basis of universalism is extremely thin Scripturally and is mostly conjectures based on emotions.

Just wondering and hope some others really look at the big picture around here. For the universalist sake I hope he is right. But I can never accept the universalist position, not only because of this, but the evidence against it far outweighs any evidence for it.

Neal

 

[GH]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Yelsew:
Will he come in Love? YAH! He'll absolutely LOVE destroying untruth, He'll absolutely LOVE tearing down every false religion that currently permeates mankind. He'll absolutely LOVE knocking the props out from under those who believe that "GOD IS LOVE" and that is all that God is, while forsaking all the other attributes of GOD. That includes you dear! So if I were you, I'd Go back to 'Jesus 101' and find out the truth about him and the Father. 'CAUSE YOU AIN'T GOT IT!

Originally posted by Yelsew:
yelly?
Only my dearest friends are allowed to call me yelly!

I do not consider you to be even a casual acquaintance, you have a different bible, and believe in a different God than I.

However, like barristers in a court room, I will argue the case with, or against you.

You did not even attempt to refute anything I said, so you must not have a leg to stand on!

Thank you again for your scathing posts, Mr. Yelsew. I am rejoicing in it:

11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

My God calls me "sweetheart" and "darling." And I love Him so much for it.

May God open the eyes of your heart.

GH

Verses about HIS NAME:


Psalm 23:3
he restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake.


Psalm 143:11
For your name's sake, O LORD , preserve my life; in your righteousness, bring me out of trouble.


Isaiah 48:9
For my own name's sake I delay my wrath; for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you, so as not to cut you off.


Ezekiel 20:44
You will know that I am the LORD , when I deal with you for my name's sake and not according to your evil ways and your corrupt practices, O house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD .' "

 

[GH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />John 3:5. Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit;

Unless one is born in the natural realm (water) and born again (through faith) in the spirit world, one cannot enter into the kingdom of God. It is widely accepted that Heaven is included in the Kingdom of God.

Seems to me God has spoken! </font>[/QUOTE]Mr. Yelsew,

Can you make yourself be born again?

NNE can come to Jesus unless the FATHER DRAW HIM. The Father makes Jesus attractive to us. He opens the eyes of our hearts. We cannot do this without the power of the Holy Spirit working INSIDE of us. HE causes the growth. He, He, He!

There is NNE RIGHTEOUS - NO - NOT ONE, Paul says. ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Making a decision to accept Christ is only possible by the power of the Holy Spirit. Anything else is a work and nothing but the stench of filthy menstral rags in His nostrils. Remember - no boasting allowed. It's all Him and none of us.

In His grace, He reaches down and His arm is not too short.

Well, I'm bracing myself for another blessing from you

Love, Diane

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Isn't this just too high risk to take?

Interesting. Brother Bill in the Calvinist/Arminian Debate Forum makes the same argument about Calvinism. The practical import of what he says is that Calvinists can believe whatever they want to believe concerning what they believe the truth of the Bible is, but they should sit down and keep quiet because they might do some harm. Now you make a similar argument.

I guess that anyone who is not an Arminian/non-Calvinist ETer should not say anything, according to this line of reasoning. We can believe what we will, but we shouldn't ever tell anyone what we believe. But I believe God is sovereign and always accomplishes His will, so I really don't think I will harm anybody or stop God from fulfilling His purposes. Since Satan can't stop God, I know I certainly can't regardless of how poor my performance in His service may be.

Daniel 4:34-35 (ESV)
[34]At the end of the days I, Neb uchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever,

for his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;
[35] all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, "What have you done?"

Isaiah 55:10-11 (ESV)
[10]"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven
and do not return there but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
[11] so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

God never, ever fails.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

[GH]

God never, ever fails.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

Amen, Kenbro

God is Love and Love (God) never fails \o/ {o} (a feeble attempt at producing an electronic wave offering)

Your sis, Diane

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by GH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />John 3:5. Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit;

Unless one is born in the natural realm (water) and born again (through faith) in the spirit world, one cannot enter into the kingdom of God. It is widely accepted that Heaven is included in the Kingdom of God.

Seems to me God has spoken! </font>[/QUOTE]Mr. Yelsew,

Can you make yourself be born again?

NNE can come to Jesus unless the FATHER DRAW HIM. The Father makes Jesus attractive to us. He opens the eyes of our hearts. We cannot do this without the power of the Holy Spirit working INSIDE of us. HE causes the growth. He, He, He!

There is NNE RIGHTEOUS - NO - NOT ONE, Paul says. ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Making a decision to accept Christ is only possible by the power of the Holy Spirit. Anything else is a work and nothing but the stench of filthy menstral rags in His nostrils. Remember - no boasting allowed. It's all Him and none of us.

In His grace, He reaches down and His arm is not too short.

Well, I'm bracing myself for another blessing from you

Love, Diane </font>[/QUOTE]If you don't want to debate the issues, why do you waste your time posting in a debate forum?

 

[Yelsew]

NNE can come to Jesus unless the FATHER DRAW HIM. The Father makes Jesus attractive to us. He opens the eyes of our hearts. We cannot do this without the power of the Holy Spirit working INSIDE of us. HE causes the growth. He, He, He!

Specifically how is that accomplished?

You've heard the story of the rescue boat. In a flood a man was trapped on top of the roof of his house. A small boat comes along and the driver askes the man to get in and he'll take him to high ground. The man, a very religios man say, 'No, God will save me". Well this happened a couple more times before the house crumbled and the man drowned in the flood.

At the pearly gate, the bewildered, soaking wet man stood before St. Pete, and demanded to know why God had not saved him. St. Pete gently replied, 'Well, sir, God sent you three boats, but you refused all of them'.

The point is, God provides the means to salvation, it is up to us to believe and thereby be saved.

Believing most often implies giving up what we suppose is the way God does things and trusting that what he puts in our way, is His means of drawing us to his son. Belief is, afterall, persuasion.

God does not Alter any part of us in order for us to believe in Him. He does not need to do that because he already made us capable of believing. He does persuade us through a wide variety of means, but the single clincher is His Holy Word.

If you are capable of believing Satan's lies, you are equally capable of believing God's truth.

Take the lowly sponge for example. Now color two separate containers of water using food color. first dip the dry sponge in one container of colored water. The sponge soaks up the colored water. Squeeze the water from the sponge and dip it into the other container. The sponge soaks up that water just as easily. In this illustration, water represents truth, food color represents differences in truth, and the sponge is the human brain. The human brain can soak up truth regardless of its color. So if the human brain soaks up satans 'truth', it is more than capable of soaking up God's truth. God made it that way!

"If I be lifted up, I draw ALL to me!" He was lifted up, I was drawn to Him.

"I and the Father are one, Believe in the Father believe also in me". I believed in the Father, and now I believe in the Son.

"Whosoever believeth on Him shall have everlasting life". I Believe on Him, thus I know I shall live forever.

Nothing Magic. Mysterious perhaps, but not magic.

 

[GH]

If you don't want to debate the issues, why do you waste your time posting in a debate forum?

Dear Mr. Yelsew,

What exactly haven't I addressed to your satisfaction? I'm for universalisam. I've posted consistently with information that I believe supports universalism. If you have questions, Yelly - oops, Mr. Yelsew, please feel free to ask me. Or you can continue to attack me personally (which by the way is a sure sign of desperation)

Love ya, Di

 

[GH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />NNE can come to Jesus unless the FATHER DRAW HIM. The Father makes Jesus attractive to us. He opens the eyes of our hearts. We cannot do this without the power of the Holy Spirit working INSIDE of us. HE causes the growth. He, He, He!

Specifically how is that accomplished?

You've heard the story of the rescue boat. In a flood a man was trapped on top of the roof of his house. A small boat comes along and the driver askes the man to get in and he'll take him to high ground. The man, a very religios man say, 'No, God will save me". Well this happened a couple more times before the house crumbled and the man drowned in the flood.

At the pearly gate, the bewildered, soaking wet man stood before St. Pete, and demanded to know why God had not saved him. St. Pete gently replied, 'Well, sir, God sent you three boats, but you refused all of them'.

The point is, God provides the means to salvation, it is up to us to believe and thereby be saved.

Believing most often implies giving up what we suppose is the way God does things and trusting that what he puts in our way, is His means of drawing us to his son. Belief is, afterall, persuasion.

God does not Alter any part of us in order for us to believe in Him. He does not need to do that because he already made us capable of believing. He does persuade us through a wide variety of means, but the single clincher is His Holy Word.

If you are capable of believing Satan's lies, you are equally capable of believing God's truth.

Take the lowly sponge for example. Now color two separate containers of water using food color. first dip the dry sponge in one container of colored water. The sponge soaks up the colored water. Squeeze the water from the sponge and dip it into the other container. The sponge soaks up that water just as easily. In this illustration, water represents truth, food color represents differences in truth, and the sponge is the human brain. The human brain can soak up truth regardless of its color. So if the human brain soaks up satans 'truth', it is more than capable of soaking up God's truth. God made it that way!

"If I be lifted up, I draw ALL to me!" He was lifted up, I was drawn to Him.

"I and the Father are one, Believe in the Father believe also in me". I believed in the Father, and now I believe in the Son.

"Whosoever believeth on Him shall have everlasting life". I Believe on Him, thus I know I shall live forever.

Nothing Magic. Mysterious perhaps, but not magic. </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Mr. Yelsew,

Cmon now. If I posted that boat story, you would have blasted me for not being scriptural. Really, the double standard has gotta stop if you want me to debate you.

And yes, it is a mystery. Behold, I tell you a mystery......... partial quote from St. Paul

Love ya, Di

 

[Yelsew]

Come let us "reason" together!

Let us "reason" what the scriptures tell us. Instead of posting scriptures taken out of their context to make your point, make your point with reasoning based upon the context of the scripture.

I expect that what you post has some scriptural basis, as the boat story I posted does.

You have it in you mind that God is going to save all mankind. You use scriptures that, if left in their context, would not support your belief. So what is it that convinced you that God intends to save all mankind?

I have not attacked you, but I do strongly oppose your beliefs. I have not called Diane any names or disparaged you personally in any way. Yes you do wear rose colored glasses when it comes to your belief system. That is not a personal attack it is an observation, in the same manner that you have made observations about me and my beliefs. You can drop the "Mr." too! Use my login name as it appears on every post that I make, as I have done for you.

 

[GH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Come let us "reason" together!

Let us "reason" what the scriptures tell us. Instead of posting scriptures taken out of their context to make your point, make your point with reasoning based upon the context of the scripture.

I expect that what you post has some scriptural basis, as the boat story I posted does.

You have it in you mind that God is going to save all mankind. You use scriptures that, if left in their context, would not support your belief. So what is it that convinced you that God intends to save all mankind?

I have not attacked you, but I do strongly oppose your beliefs. I have not called Diane any names or disparaged you personally in any way. Yes you do wear rose colored glasses when it comes to your belief system. That is not a personal attack it is an observation, in the same manner that you have made observations about me and my beliefs. You can drop the "Mr." too! Use my login name as it appears on every post that I make, as I have done for you.

Well, Yelsew, I suppose the crack about Yelly wasn't meant to attack me (albeit an extremely minor one, the impact is still the same - disrepect for another beliefs). I have not implied in any way or put down in any way your beliefs with personal comments (none that I can remember anyway). I DO try to stay on track and use scripture coupled with my interpretation as revealed to me by the Holy Spirit and not some long dead denominational regurgitation that no one questions, but swallows hook, line and sinker.

I am in the one with the "heretical" belief, Yelsew. I KNOW where you're coming from so well I could recite it in my sleep. If you seriously want to discuss this then keep in mind that I've had a major paradigm shift. I no longer believe what you believe. So could you just prayerfully and thoughtfully consider what I'm saying without the snide remarks (and please don't make me go back and read this entire thread to pick them out for proof) Or.....we could just forget it.

Love, Diane

 

[neal4christ]

I guess that anyone who is not an Arminian/non-Calvinist ETer should not say anything, according to this line of reasoning. We can believe what we will, but we shouldn't ever tell anyone what we believe.

Please show me where I said for you to be quiet. I just asked a simple question.

I responded to you point by point and yet you refuese to do the same for me. You have done (or rather, not) this the whole thread. Why is that? At least tell me something so I don't assume things on my side. You'll get to it later, don't know how, don't have any, etc. It would be greatly appreciated.

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

I DO try to stay on track and use scripture coupled with my interpretation as revealed to me by the Holy Spirit

I have an honest question for you, Diane. How do you know it is the Holy Spirit?

Neal

 

[Me2]

From scriptures mentioned within this thread...

Universalism hinges on three points..

the free will of man
the Complete Soveregnty of God.
the sufficiency of Jesus Sacrifice

1) Does man have free will over Gods will?..
No, never has.

2) Is God (Completely) Sovereign ?..Yes.

3) Is Jesus Blood sufficient to cover all sin?
Yes.

answer differently and your beleifs stand against the "possibility" of universal reconcilitation....

we see that by answering these questions incorrectly that accepting the concepts of universal reconciliation is really not the immediate problem here..

Me2

 

[neal4christ]

we see that by answering these questions correctly that accepting the concepts of universal reconciliation is really not the immediate problem here..

I have never acted like they are the foundational questions. And I don't think those are the three main questions. Just three that I can think of are:

1) Does God force people to receive Him even if they don't want to?

2) Does universalism adequately address all of the Biblical evidence?

3) Does God's love compromise all of His other attributes?

I would answer 'no' to all three of these. Another question would be the view of inspiration and whether we are at liberty to conjecture about things outside the scope of Scripture with no solid foundation. I would say that we are not at liberty to do that. This is the heart of the issue. I believe that God is able and that Christ's death was sufficient. That is not the argument. It is will God save everybody, even those who reject Him?

Neal

 

[GH]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I DO try to stay on track and use scripture coupled with my interpretation as revealed to me by the Holy Spirit

I have an honest question for you, Diane. How do you know it is the Holy Spirit?

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]How do you?