Unlimited Atonement

[37818]

Of course God will not violate free will. He will not violate something that does not exist. The will of the lost man is not free. It is in bondage to the law of sin and death. The will of the saved man is not free. It is bound to the law of New Life in Christ.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

A point for all to note: "Free will" can only refer to men being "self willed" opposed to "God's will."

 

[1689Dave]

Simply not true. Christ died for all. ". . . if one died for all, then were all dead: . . ." And all men are dead without Christ. If any do not accept this gift, they will be greater damned by Christ being their Judge. (Also Romans 14:9-11.)

If Christ paid for everyone's sin, including those in the flood and the Canaanites, why aren't all saved in the end?

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Second, since the atonement is unlimited and Jesus died "once for all," that means that every man, woman, boy, and girl has an opportunity to appropriate Christ's atonement to their own sinful condition.

Your problem is that you mistakenly try to fit this position into the Universalism box. Christ died that all men might be saved, not will be saved (John 3:17).

So, Christ's atonement was indeed for the "iniquity of us all;" even for those who rejected the Lord and are in hell today. There are no sinless people in hell today, just people who failed to place their faith and trust in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

There was a moment in your postings that suggested "universalism" and when you were accused of implying it, you did come across as trying to defend universalism, which you weren't. It is unfortunate that it happened but your clarity here in this post says it all so there should be no further disagreement.

I believe the darkness at His crucifixion which the day was approaching the annual sabbath when the moon was full, and His separation from the Father was that moment when He took the sins of the world upon Himself including the effects of sin on fallen creation. The Light of the world went out as the Creator of the universe became our Redeemer, and His resurrection was His victory over death. Soon, at the great white throne judgment, death and hades will be cast into the lake of fire as sin will never separate His creation from God ever again. There will be much rejoicing in the kingdom of Heaven.

Thallus, a secular historian assumed it was an eclipse, but Josephus Africanus,a Christian historian, said that it was not likely since had had knowledge of the annual sabbath at the full moon as it was and is the Jewish tradition for the annual sabbath..

 

[JonShaff]

If Christ paid for everyone's sin, including those in the flood and the Canaanites, why aren't all saved in the end?

Because the effects of Christ's death are only applied through Faith. Christ is redeeming all of creation, but that does not mean everyone will be saved.

 

[1689Dave]

Because the effects of Christ's death are only applied through Faith. Christ is redeeming all of creation, but that does not mean everyone will be saved.

The the atonement didn't pay for the sin of unbelief?

 

[TCassidy]

I answered the question, just not to your liking.

"Strawman" is not an answer.

It seems to work well for you, Tom.

Except I don't.

Only to those who are thin-skinned.

So your personal attack is my fault?

First, "strawman" is a valid answer because you are asking the question on the flawed premise that I must accept your theological position and base my answer to your liking.

No, my question pointed out the falsity of your claim.

Second, since the atonement is unlimited and Jesus died "once for all," that means that every man, woman, boy, and girl has an opportunity to appropriate Christ's atonement to their own sinful condition.

Again, how does a lost person enter into the Heavenly Holy of Holies and "appropriate" that which is on the Mercy Seat? Either Christ atoned for their sin or He didn't. You can't add man's works to Christ's finished work.

And again you conflate Christ's death for all with Christ's atonement. They are NOT the same thing. That has been explained to you over and over again.

Your problem is that you mistakenly try to fit this position into the Universalism box.

No, the universalism box is yours not mine. I do not believe the atonement was universal. I believe it only atones for the sins of believers.

Christ died that all men might be saved, not will be saved (John 3:17).

So He couldn't quite pull it off so He needed our help to save us. We had to add our works to His (un)finished work?

There are no sinless people in hell today, just people who failed to place their faith and trust in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

So there we have it. You have to add something to Christ's (un)finished work.

All of Him. None of me. Christ is not a failure. He doesn't just try and fail to save people. He saves those whom He will save. He never fails.

 

[Rockson]

Again, how does a lost person enter into the Heavenly Holy of Holies and "appropriate" that which is on the Mercy Seat? Either Christ atoned for their sin or He didn't. You can't add man's works to Christ's finished work.

You're merely spinning words here and trying to lock them into a mode which proves Calvinism. Yes Jesus is the High Priest in the Holy of Holies...were aren't! Agreed. None of this demonstrates that the sinner doesn't need to receive God's grace by and act of their will.

 

[Yeshua1]

I did not say he would not be saved, but 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 ties in the consequence of not departing from iniquity and thus defiling the temple of God for which physical death will come ( verses 16-17 ) as it is the warning to the church at Thyatira to repent of their fornication or else be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation as God will judge every believer in according to his works with death when found disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper and thus left behind.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

I know some Christians will think of a believer living in unrepentant sin or in a heresy as not saved, but His words doesn't validate that judgment. Those left behind are still saved and thus still His, but because of unrepentant iniquity on that foundation, it needs to be burned away before they can be accepted by Him and unfortunately, that disqualifies them from attending the Marriage Supper as a vessel unto honor in His House to be received later on after the great tribulation as a vessel unto dishonor in His House.

So make no mistake; God is coming to judge His House first and that is where the vessels unto dishonor in His House comes from; they are the disqualified and thus the damned because they can never be that vessel unto honor in His House once the door to the Marriage supper has been shut, but they are still in His House testifying to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him, even in His name, even though they did not look to the author & finisher of our faith to help them to lay aside every weight & sin in running that race to be received by the Bridegroom.

I thank Him that I hope in His mercy in helping me to abide in Him in running that race by laying aside every weight & sin. Do you?

Every person who has been saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit will be raptured/glorified, as the seal of the Spirit makes that person one of His, and Jesus is coming back to raise up all of His own, not just some of them!

 

[Yeshua1]

"Strawman" is not an answer.

Except I don't.

So your personal attack is my fault?

No, my question pointed out the falsity of your claim.

Again, how does a lost person enter into the Heavenly Holy of Holies and "appropriate" that which is on the Mercy Seat? Either Christ atoned for their sin or He didn't. You can't add man's works to Christ's finished work.

And again you conflate Christ's death for all with Christ's atonement. They are NOT the same thing. That has been explained to you over and over again.

No, the universalism box is yours not mine. I do not believe the atonement was universal. I believe it only atones for the sins of believers.

So He couldn't quite pull it off so He needed our help to save us. We had to add our works to His (un)finished work?

So there we have it. You have to add something to Christ's (un)finished work.

All of Him. None of me. Christ is not a failure. He doesn't just try and fail to save people. He saves those whom He will save. He never fails.

Wonder if Jude saw salvation as being conditional, based upon his ending of his book?

 

[Yeshua1]

You're merely spinning words here and trying to lock them into a mode which proves Calvinism. Yes Jesus is the High Priest in the Holy of Holies...were aren't! Agreed. None of this demonstrates that the sinner doesn't need to receive God's grace by and act of their will.

Paul stated that the natural lost sinner cannot receive spiritual things of the Lord, correct?

 

[37818]

If Christ paid for everyone's sin, including those in the flood and the Canaanites, why aren't all saved in the end?

All names begin in the book of life. Names are blotted out because of sin. Unless one has without any merit trusted in God their names will have been blotted out do to sin.

The reason in the judgement people perish is their names are not in the book (Revelation 20:15; Exodus 32:33).

Only those who are counted as children in God's sight will not have their names removed (Mark 10:15; John 3:3; 1 John 5:4; Revelation 3:5). For whom Christ redeems. The rest will receive the greater damnation with Christ as their Judge (Romans 14:9-11).

 

[Yeshua1]

All names begin in the book of life. Names are blotted out because of sin. Unless one has without any merit trusted in God their names will have been blotted out do to sin.

The reason in the judgement people perish is their names are not in the book (Revelation 20:15; Exodus 32:33).

Only those who are counted as children in God's sight will not have their names removed (Mark 10:15; John 3:3; 1 John 5:4; Revelation 3:5). For whom Christ redeems. The rest will receive the greater damnation with Christ as their Judge (Romans 14:9-11).

The Book of life was just the physical life assigned to all born, nothing to do witj tje Lambs book of life, as all who are in that One will never be erased out!

 

[Rockson]

Paul stated that the natural lost sinner cannot receive spiritual things of the Lord, correct?

But God gives spiritual enlightenment to all and they choose to either hate the light or accept it correct?

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Jn 1:9

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Jn 3:19

 

[HopefulNChrist]

So let me get this straight about the "argument" in this thread as it seems to be going round and round.:

One side argues against Christ's ransom being able to save all in order to oppose that wrongful application of the part of that verse as being towards Universalism while those who contend for Christ's ransom to be able to pay for all are applying that truth by how that ransom can only be applied towards, and that is "especially" towards those that believe.

John 3:18 cites that Christ's ransom was not applied to those who do not believe by testifying that they were already condemned.

So I think it is a matter of realizing what the scripture is saying is that Christ's ransom has the power to save all, but as the rest of that verse testify, His ransom can only be applied especially to those that believe. Otherwise, there would be no need to say "specially of those that believe". In other words, God is the Saviour of all those that believe in Him.

1 Timothy 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Every person who has been saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit will be raptured/glorified, as the seal of the Spirit makes that person one of His, and Jesus is coming back to raise up all of His own, not just some of them!

If that is true, why has the church been taught to excommunicate unrepentant believers living in sin as in 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 ?

Why did Paul issued a commandment from the Lord for believers to withdraw from wicked and unreasonable men that have not faith that no longer walk after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 , but not to treat them as the enemy, but to admonish them as brothers still in 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15?

Why has the Baptist forum divided the body of believers that are "officially" Baptists from the rest of the body of believers that are "Christians"? Is it because of this scripture below?

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Scripture proves how the body of believers are to treat those contrary to the faith and traditions taught of us, but yet still they are to be acknowledged as His, but to withdraw to lead them to repentance; in order to also hold the feast of fellowship in sincerity and in truth. You better believe the Bridegroom is going to judge His House in that same way at the pre great trib rapture event.

Those disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper table are still saved, but there are works on that foundation that deny Him which is why they are denied attendance to the Marriage Supper table in Heaven, but they are not denied reception into the Millennium reign after the great tribulation.

 

[37818]

The Book of life was just the physical life assigned to all born, nothing to do witj tje Lambs book of life, as all who are in that One will never be erased out!

No. Exodus 32:33. Psalms 69:27-28. And now only those who overcome through faith in Christ will not in any way have their names blotted out (1 John 5:4; Revelation 3:5).

Their names were in the book before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4).

The ones who perish are the ones whose names are not in the book (Revelation 20:15)

 

[loDebar]

No. Exodus 32:33. Psalms 69:27-28. And now only those who overcome through faith in Christ will not in any way have their names blotted out (1 John 5:4; Revelation 3:5).

Their names were in the book before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4).

The ones who perish are the ones whose names are not in the book (Revelation 20:15)

The names not found in the Book are the ones blotted out.

 

[loDebar]

The Book of life was just the physical life assigned to all born, nothing to do witj tje Lambs book of life, as all who are in that One will never be erased out!

why do you says this,,,? Explain your difference please?

 

[Yeshua1]

So let me get this straight about the "argument" in this thread as it seems to be going round and round.:

One side argues against Christ's ransom being able to save all in order to oppose that wrongful application of the part of that verse as being towards Universalism while those who contend for Christ's ransom to be able to pay for all are applying that truth by how that ransom can only be applied towards, and that is "especially" towards those that believe.

John 3:18 cites that Christ's ransom was not applied to those who do not believe by testifying that they were already condemned.

So I think it is a matter of realizing what the scripture is saying is that Christ's ransom has the power to save all, but as the rest of that verse testify, His ransom can only be applied especially to those that believe. Otherwise, there would be no need to say "specially of those that believe". In other words, God is the Saviour of all those that believe in Him.

1 Timothy 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

The intent of the Cross of God was not to save all lost sinners, but to save only those whom he would draw and call and bring to Jesus!

 

[Yeshua1]

why do you says this,,,? Explain your difference please?

In the OT, when it describes names being blotted out of the book, refersd to them being killed physically, and removed from Israel. The in revelation refers to those who have eternal /spiritual life, and none ever are removed from there, as God placed them there Himself! He would not contridicyt Himself!