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Unqualified Rhetoric

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Reformed

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Let me ask you a question. Is it possible you could be wrong about TULIP being correct?

Possible? Sure. I am a finite human being who does not possess perfect knowledge.

Likely? No. You do not know me but at least show me some respect. I did not become a Calvinist overnight. I put a great amount of study and prayer into the election and predestination. Even when my mind was changed I refused to admit it for over two years. My stubborn pride was unwilling to admit I was wrong.
 

Don

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That is not what I said or even meant to intimate.

Most contemporary Arminians (or what I call the "rank-and-file") in broad evangelicalism really do not have a definite opinion on the Calvinist-Arminian debate. Venues such as the Baptist Board attract those who are interested in the debate. But from what I have experienced in my multiple decades of being a Christian is that most church members go with what their local church or denomination believes.

True Synergism (I place Arminianism and semi-Pelagianism under the Synergist umbrella) teaches that man cooperates with God in salvation because God will not violate the free will of the creature. But ask your average non-Calvinist church-goer whether they even understand that concept and you will receive a big NO as your answer.
Thanks for the clarification. As for your last statement - wholeheartedly agree!
 

steaver

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Could be? Take off your anti-Calvinist hat for a moment. Suppose we are talking about another area of theology. If you studied that area, and you changed your current view, would you attribute that change to God? I do not think "could be" is a good answer. It seems like you are trying to straddle the fence without committing yourself.

I believe it is the only answer that can be given. Unless a voice from heaven speaks directly into one's spirit, how would one know if God was the cause of the opinion formed about any particular theology?

Possible? Sure. I am a finite human being who does not possess perfect knowledge.

Likely? No. You do not know me but at least show me some respect. I did not become a Calvinist overnight. I put a great amount of study and prayer into the election and predestination. Even when my mind was changed I refused to admit it for over two years. My stubborn pride was unwilling to admit I was wrong.

Or maybe it was the Holy Spirit inside you resisting the error you were about to embrace?

I put a great deal of study and prayer into this subject as well, and my conclusions are opposite of your conclusions. Should I say God attributed to the anti-Calvinist position which I have taken through my prayers and studies?
 

Reformed

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I believe it is the only answer that can be given. Unless a voice from heaven speaks directly into one's spirit, how would one know if God was the cause of the opinion formed about any particular theology?

The best any of us can do is to be at peace with our own conscience, unless the belief system we old to is heretical. If you told me that you were convinced that, after study and prayer, you no longer believed in the deity of Christ, then you would be guilty of heresy. There is no appeal to conscience on matters of orthodoxy. But let us say that you, after prayer and study, believe that post-millennialism is your new eschatological position. It certainly is an orthodox position even though it may or may not be the correct position. If you have truly studied the issue, and your conscience is at peace with it, what else can anyone say?

steaver said:
Or maybe it was the Holy Spirit inside you resisting the error you were about to embrace?

I do not think believe that is the case. I am a stubborn person by nature. I tend to dig in my heels on most issues. Eventually, if proven wrong, I will give in. In the case of my acceptance of Reformed theology I was true to form. I am completely at peace with my theological position. Oh, I still have questions. I still push the envelope in search of increased understanding. As I have said before, none of us possess perfect knowledge. God has not revealed to us the knowledge of all things.

steaver said:
I put a great deal of study and prayer into this subject as well, and my conclusions are opposite of your conclusions. Should I say God attributed to the anti-Calvinist position which I have taken through my prayers and studies?

As I alluded to earlier, so long as your position is not heretical (heretical with a BIG "H"*), your conscience must be at peace with what you believe. The both of us can say that God directed us to believe what we believe. I believe God is working in me to perfect me into the image of His Son (Phil. 1:6). As my understanding of scripture increases I attribute that to Him. As soon as I lay hands on it I have taken credit for it myself. I cannot be deceived into thinking that somehow my hands can steady the ark of God (2 Sam. 6).

*By BIG "H" I mean any belief or doctrine that is outside the bounds of orthodoxy, such as: denying the virgin birth, denying the deity of Christ (Arianism), denying justification by faith et al.
 

Iconoclast

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steaver;

I put a great deal of study and prayer into this subject as well, and my conclusions are opposite of your conclusions.

:confused::confused:

Should I say God attributed to the anti-Calvinist position which I have taken through my prayers and studies?

No...you should not say that. Perhaps you have not yet experienced God enabling you to welcome the truth yet Steaver....like here-

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Clearly this describes Divine enablement:thumbs: see vs 10 Steaver;

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit....unless God allows you to see truth , you will not see it.


Paul taught it there, Jesus taught it here;
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight


You and DHK mock that this happens....so you will not progress if you scoff at revealed truth.


10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
 
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Reformed

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steaver,

Let me add that just because I said your conscience must be at peace with your convictions does not mean that I believe you are right. I obviously believe you are wrong (just like you believe I am wrong).
 

steaver

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No...you should not say that. Perhaps you have not yet experienced God enabling you to welcome the truth yet Steaver....like here-

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Clearly this describes Divine enablement:thumbs: see vs 10

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit....unless God allows you to see truth , you will not see it.


Paul taught it there, Jesus taught it here;
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight


You mock that this happens....so you will not progress if you scoff at revealed truth.


10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

No...you should not say that. Perhaps you have not yet experienced God enabling you to welcome the truth yet Icon....like here-

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Clearly this describes Divine enablement:thumbs: see vs 10

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit....unless God allows you to see truth , you will not see it.


Paul taught it there, Jesus taught it here;
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight


You mock that this happens....so you will not progress if you scoff at revealed truth.


10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

:thumbs:
 

thatbrian

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SavedByMercy made the following comment in another thread:



Am I the only Calvinist who takes umbrage with this statement?

I am onboard with you, and my interactions with SBM which are contained earlier in that thread called SBM out for making the unfair, unbiblical, uncharitable assertion that those who don't grasp or agree with limited atonement, are in an unregenerate state. No Calvinist I know, and I know plenty, holds to such an idea.

Anyone who has been debating SBM has not been debating with a Calvinist, but a caricature of one - a distortion.
 

thatbrian

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Possible? Sure. I am a finite human being who does not possess perfect knowledge.

Likely? No. You do not know me but at least show me some respect. I did not become a Calvinist overnight. I put a great amount of study and prayer into the election and predestination. Even when my mind was changed I refused to admit it for over two years. My stubborn pride was unwilling to admit I was wrong.

I like this post.

Many comments here are very disrespectful toward Calvinists, with the assumption that we are idiots. Disagree with my theology, but don't call me stupid for believing it when some of the greatest theologians, living and dead, believe what I do. Calvin, Edwards, and RC Sproul are no mental midgets.

Far from stupid, the Calvinists I know are among the most intelligent Christians I have even come across. On a whole they are thinkers. They have wrestled with these issues and studied thick books, the main one being the Bible. Also, most stories of coming around to Reformed theology include an initial resistance to the doctrines, but when the biblical evidence overwhelmed their/our human reason, they/we had to accept them as true.

Most of the rank and file in your average evangelical church has not thought much about these things as they just parrot the common, "man has freewill" without ever questioning what that even means. I myself did the same for many years.
 

Revmitchell

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I like this post.

Many comments here are very disrespectful toward Calvinists,

Bub you have not been around here long enough. The snide, belittling, arrogant comments come from cals around here. More times than not when they run out of arguments and have nothing else they just say "God has not given you the wisdom to understand the doctrines of grace yet". Or they will say that you just do not understand.

I will tell you like I do other newbies. Stick around and build some relationships before you draw one sided conclusions. At least then people will think you actually know what your talking about.
 

robustheologian

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Traditionally (at least from the 4th century to the 11th), a heretic was one who did not embrace the classical Christian creeds (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian, and Chalcedon). Anything accusations of heresy outside of this is a bit much. IMHO
 

thatbrian

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I believe it is the only answer that can be given. Unless a voice from heaven speaks directly into one's spirit, how would one know if God was the cause of the opinion formed about any particular theology?

The gospel is the central concern. Paul warns us that even if we have some great experience, like a visitation from an angel, we should not let that trump the content of the gospel.

We know what's true by what is revealed in scripture. At the end of the day, we must be convinced that what we hold to be true has a scriptural basis.

When I, or any other Calvinist, says that our eyes were opened we don't mean we had some experience that trumps scripture. We mean that we saw what was somewhat hidden from us before. We ignored/overlooked/misunderstood what was right before our eyes.



I put a great deal of study and prayer into this subject as well, and my conclusions are opposite of your conclusions. Should I say God attributed to the anti-Calvinist position which I have taken through my prayers and studies?

If God does not reveal truth to you, you will never find it, so what you do know of his truth is a gift. For example, how many Roman Catholics have the same bible as you and I do but never "see" the truth of the gospel contained within its pages?
 
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Revmitchell

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Traditionally (at least from the 4th century to the 11th), a heretic was one who did not embrace the classical Christian creeds (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian, and Chalcedon). Anything accusations of heresy outside of this is a bit much. IMHO

Heresy and a heretic are two different things.
 

steaver

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If God does not reveal truth to you, you will never find it, so what you do know of his truth is a gift. For example, how many Roman Catholics have the same bible as you and I do but never "see" the truth of the gospel contained within its pages?

Ok then, I know freewill to choose Jesus Christ is true, thus God revealed this to me from the scriptures.....

So repent of your belief that it is not.......
 

Reformed

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Bub you have not been around here long enough. The snide, belittling, arrogant comments come from cals around here. More times than not when they run out of arguments and have nothing else they just say "God has not given you the wisdom to understand the doctrines of grace yet". Or they will say that you just do not understand.

I will tell you like I do other newbies. Stick around and build some relationships before you draw one sided conclusions. At least then people will think you actually know what your talking about.

thatbrian,

I agree with some of what the esteemed Rev. wrote. Do take the time to get to know the folks around here in order to make a more well informed decision on who is who and what they are about. You may just find that those who protest too much are the greatest offenders.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Wherever the spread of Calvinism went from Geneva onward there also went the spread of persecution, just as Calvin enacted in his state-church, executing some, banishing others who did not conform to his creed.

In 1648 in England, the largely Calvinistic Parliament passed an Act making the rejection of Calvinistic baptism punishable by death.

During the Reformation Anabaptists were persecuted not only by the Catholics, but by the Calvinists and the Lutherans because they "re-baptized."
Calvin believed in baptismal regeneration, a carry over from his Catholicism.

When Calvinism spread to New England in America, Obadiah Holmes was severely beaten by the Puritans in Massachusetts.
Next day the Puritan magistrates committed them to prison, and, about a fortnight after, the Court of Assistants adjudged Dr. Clark to pay a fine of twenty pounds, Mr. Holmes a fine of thirty pounds, and Mr. Crandal five pounds. Some friends paid Dr. Clark's fine. Mr. Crandal was released on promise to appear the next court day. There was some talk about a disputation on baptism between Dr. Clark and the clergy of Boston, who had intimated a willingness to meet him, but it came to nothing.
Mr. Holmes' fine was the heaviest, most probably on account of the circumstances mentioned in the sentence presently to be quoted. He would not allow the fine to be paid for him, nor would he pay it himself. But he must either pay or be "well whipt." So ran the sentence. It is a curiosity, and should be preserved: —

"The sentence of Obadiah Holmes, of Seaconk, the 31st of the fifth month, 1651.
"Forasmuch as you, Obadiah Holmes, being come into this jurisdiction about the 21st of the fifth month, did meet at one William Witter's house, at Lynn, and did here privately (and at other times), being an excommunicated person, did take upon you to preach and baptize upon the Lord's Day, or other days, ... and seducing the subjects of this commonwealth from the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and perverting the straight ways of the Lord; the court doth fine you thirty pounds, to be paid, or sufficient sureties that the said sum shall be paid by the first day of the next Court of Assistants, or else to be well whipt; and that you shall remain in prison till it be paid, or security given in for it:

The sentence was passed in July. Mr. Holmes was kept in prison till September, when he was publicly whipped, and so barbarously "that in many days, if not some weeks, he could take no rest but as he lay upon his knees and elbows, not being able to suffer any part of his body to touch the bed whereon he lay." His own account of the affair, in a letter addressed to Messrs. Spilsbury, Kiffin and other Baptists in London, is deeply affecting, but too long for transcription here. He tells the brethren how he declined the proffered kindness of his friends, who "came to visit him, desiring him to take the refreshment of wine and other comforts," having resolved "not to drink wine nor strong drink that day, until his punishment was over," lest the world should say "that the strength and comfort of the creature had carried him through;"
Even in America there was a great persecution by Calvinists against those who believed in free will.

Even the Alliance of Reformed Christians, in their 2000 declaration, do not believe that those who believe in the free will of man should be classified as evangelicals.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040311190511/www.allreform.co.uk/LonDec2000.htm
 

steaver

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Wherever the spread of Calvinism went from Geneva onward there also went the spread of persecution, just as Calvin enacted in his state-church, executing some, banishing others who did not conform to his creed.

In 1648 in England, the largely Calvinistic Parliament passed an Act making the rejection of Calvinistic baptism punishable by death.

During the Reformation Anabaptists were persecuted not only by the Catholics, but by the Calvinists and the Lutherans because they "re-baptized."
Calvin believed in baptismal regeneration, a carry over from his Catholicism.

When Calvinism spread to New England in America, Obadiah Holmes was severely beaten by the Puritans in Massachusetts.

Even in America there was a great persecution by Calvinists against those who believed in free will.

Even the Alliance of Reformed Christians, in their 2000 declaration, do not believe that those who believe in the free will of man should be classified as evangelicals.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040311190511/www.allreform.co.uk/LonDec2000.htm

As one looks back over history since the creation of the Calvinism doctrine, has this doctrine brought peace and harmony to the body of Christ? Or has it caused great strife and division? The answer should teach us all something.
 
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