USA Today: Bush's tax cuts benefit all income levels; AMT must be fixed

[UnchartedSpirit]

does trickle down work during any national standpoint, like when we're in world war 3 or something else as significant?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

I think you perhaps misunderstand trickle down. Trickle down means that people who have money use it on things that create jobs (or at least pay for jobs), whether in the company they own, or in teh things that they buy. I don't think it is only in the company, though that is a part of it.

If people with money didn't buy luxury cars, then the people who make luxury cars would be unemployed. If people with money didn't buy luxury homes, then people who build them would be unemployed. Trickle down works when the guy making 30K stops and buys a slushee at 7-11 from some teenager making the minimum. It works when some guy making 50K pays some teenager $20 a week to cut his lawn in the summer.

And if government takes the money, then it gets wasted.

So trickle down does work.

What you describe is indeed, one way wealth supposedly trickles down. What I described is another. Both are part of the theory.

From Wikipedia:

"Trickle-down economics" and "trickle-down theory," in United States political rhetoric, are characterizations by opponents (principally Democrats) of the policy of lowering taxes on high incomes and business activity. Proponents of these policies claim that they will promote new investment and economic growth, thereby indirectly benefitting people who do not directly pay the taxes. Opponents characterize this as a claim that the people who would otherwise pay the tax will distribute their benefit to less wealthy individuals, so that a fraction will reach the general population and stimulate the economy.[1] Proponents of the policies generally do not use the terms "trickle-down economics" themselves. After all, consumers must question the notion of the stream of wealth at a "trickle" by the time it reaches them.

Here is one article about why it doesn't work:
http://www.faireconomy.org/research/TrickleDown.html

I maintain that all the Bush tax cuts do is redistribute wealth to the wealthiest people in America at the expense of the middle class worker. Give EVERYONE an equitable tax break, and you might stimulate some economic spending and growth. The wealthy can already afford their Hummers without the cuts.

 

[carpro]

I maintain that all the Bush tax cuts do is redistribute wealth to the wealthiest people in America at the expense of the middle class worker. Give EVERYONE an equitable tax break, and you might stimulate some economic spending and growth. The wealthy can already afford their Hummers without the cuts.

You "maintain" wrong.

I don't have to look far to find an example...me.

Definitely middle class. Definitely paying lower taxes now than before the tax cuts.

Envy is covered in the Ten Commandments, I believe, as coveting.

 

[Revmitchell]

Easy. The idea of "trickle down economics" is that business owners will reinvest their tax cuts into the business, creating more jobs. But instead they spend the money on Hummers and other stuff. The trickle down never happens. You stated it is their money to spend. That points out why it doesn't work.

The Hummer that is purchased provides an income for the dealership and for the salesman. The gasoline purchased provided income for the store owner and the employee behind the counter each and everytime it is refueled. while the owner is fueling up they are probably buying drinks snacks or what have you.

If they choose not to buy a hummer but invest it then it is recycled back into the economy. So the only way the money made by the wealthy doesnt get recycled back into the economy is is if they put it under their mattress.

A flat tax is approrpiate because everyone pays the same % according to their income. No loopholes left. No need for an inflated IRS. The size of government gets reduced. And the tax code becomes fair based on % and the new ability for the ones paying into it to actually understand it. Not being able to understand it makes it completely unfair.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

How else are we going to pay for this war in Iraq?

 

[El_Guero]

I understand data, economics, mathematics, statistics, the Constitution, & the US government.

The really wealthy are paying less (per dollar of income) now than they were a decade ago, two decades ago, and three decades ago (derived from from IRS data tables).

Yes there was a time when the wealthy paid more than the poor . . . during the Revolution they led the way with their money, their lives, and the lives of their families . . . we have been going down hill ever since.

 

[LeBuick]

The AMT is atrocious.

I do favor a graduated income tax system, but I'd live with a flat tax system that kicked in after about 15-20k.

EDIT: I just read up on the FairTax--I'd be in favor of that if we could ever get it.

I'd take a flat tax also as long is it gave some exclusions for the very ill etc... I also agree with deductions for dependants. I don't agree with a tax break on a Hummer. That's when we clearly need reform.

 

[rbell]

I understand data, economics, mathematics, statistics, the Constitution, & the US government.

congratulations. you're the first citizen to understand our government.:tongue3:

The really wealthy are paying less (per dollar of income) now than they were a decade ago, two decades ago, and three decades ago (derived from from IRS data tables).

And is this bad? Maybe they were paying too much before (can you say 1970's recession?) Basic economics also shows us that tax cuts are quite capable of stimulating economic growth.

Our problem is not as much a taxation issue as a spending one. Our government and its citizens are hooked on the crack cocaine of free handouts. Since government is the answer to all of our needs, they must take most of our money to pay for it.

during the Revolution they led the way with their money, their lives, and the lives of their families . . . we have been going down hill ever since.

Leaders during the Revolution sacrificed much...but one of their breaking points with the Crown was...guess what...confiscatory taxes!

 

[El_Guero]

There is no reason for the rich to be paying significantly less in taxes today when real wages are significantly less . . .

Pay me what I am worth . . . if you do not want to pay your share of the taxes and you want me to carry your load - then pay me real money . . .

Then I could afford to be a bi-vocational pastor and not worry about bills. Then I could serve the Lord with the gladness that I should have in a 'rich' country.

Instead we support the financial attack by satan upon our pastors at all levels to keep us from doing God's will. And the same is true of the lay men in our churches. Women must now work for a two income home to compete (not keep up with) the earning power of the mostly male (single income) heads of households of the 60's, 70's and 80's.

And we wonder how satan was able to destroy the family?

economic enslavement
abortion
divorce
breakdown of the nuclear family

Now we should let the enslavement continue . . . get every man, woman, and child so in debt (we owe something like 20k each on the national debt alone) that we CANNOT serve God . . .

I am against allowing the progression of what will take the church down. IMHO.

 

[Pastor Larry]

There is no reason for the rich to be paying significantly less in taxes today when real wages are significantly less . . .

So let me see if I understand your complaint: People are making less in real wages, and therefore should be paying more in taxes.

Is that about right? If not, please explain what appears to be a very convuluted sentence above.

Pay me what I am worth

You are being paid what you are worth. If your employer thinks you are worth more, he will pay you more. If you think you are worth more, ask for more, and then threaten to leave. If you employer agrees with you, he will pay you more. If he doesn't, he will not.

What something is worth is determined by the market. Ask anyone selling a house or a car, or anything on ebay. Worth is also determined by the parties involved in the transaction. I will not sell something if it is worth more to me tha you are willing to pay. You will not buy something if it is worth less to you than I am willing to accept.

. . . if you do not want to pay your share of the taxes and you want me to carry your load - then pay me real money . . .

What are you getting paid in now? Monopoly money? Are they allowed to do that?

Instead we support the financial attack by satan upon our pastors at all levels to keep us from doing God's will. And the same is true of the lay men in our churches. Women must now work for a two income home to compete (not keep up with) the earning power of the mostly male (single income) heads of households of the 60's, 70's and 80's.

Why do we need to compete with the heads of households of other generations? How is this a financial attack on pastors? Are you in it for money and ease? I am not sure what the complaint is here. Jesus did not have a place to lay his head. Are we better then he? Is it not enough for the disciple to be as his master?

I can understand your complaints coming from a non-Christian, for whom this world is all there is. But I have a hard time understanding it coming from someone whose citizenship is supposed to be in another country, who is supposed to have left all to follow him.

And we wonder how satan was able to destroy the family?

economic enslavement
abortion
divorce
breakdown of the nuclear family

Economics have very little to do with this. The studies that show poor families are more prone to trouble and crime and drugs are studies that do not take into account spiritual leadership in the home. If the dad is a spiritual leadership, these things are no problem.

I am against allowing the progression of what will take the church down. IMHO.

One of hte greatest dangers to the church is the idea that you are presenting that somehow we have a right to make more money in this world. That is a far cry from those in Hebrews 10, who gave it all up for the sake of Christ. I recently had a conversation with some church leaders from a part of the world where the church is persecuted, some of whom have spent time in prison and torture for their gospel work. Please pardon me for not saying more than that about them and their location. I asked them what their greatest fear for the church was. They all, without hesitation, said "Western materialism." In other words, they are worried a lot more about prosperity than persecution. What a far cry from the soft western Christianity we have that ties everything up in how much money we are making.

Until we decide that Jesus is enough for us, we will be poor citizens of the next world, and we will always be looking for satisfaction in this world.

My bottom line on this is simple: If you can make more money, do it. And use it for the sake of the gospel, not to buy a bigger house, a nicer car, or a vacation. But above all be content with such things as you have.

Spend some time in 1 Tim 6 and see what God says about economic discussions.

 

[Revmitchell]

One of the greatest dangers to the church is the idea that you are presenting that somehow we have a right to make more money in this world.

Exactly!:thumbs:

 

[El_Guero]

One of the greatest dangers to the church is the idea that you are presenting that somehow we have a right to make more money in this world.

A complete misrepresentation of what I presented - we have the right to not earn less.

I am not greedy and do not place someone else's greedy heart in me.

 

[El_Guero]

The Gospel of Jesus Christ does not demand better treatment - it commands it.

When we in America are lead by the rich and they do not take care of their workers and even export the jobs and fire their workers . . . are they living according to God's Word? Or, are they in sin?

What? preach against sin only when it is convenient?

Preach against sin. Millions of babies (needed workers for our economy) were killed. We now have such a shortage of workers, that we have imported millions in an attempt to replace the ones we let be killed. We need to repent and begin treating our fellow Americans with respect - and if we cannot put our money where our mouths are - then we do not respect our fellow Americans. IMHO.

Sin is sin. Either we biblically take care of our employees, or we are in sin.

I get it . . . preach only part of the Gospel and hope the rich are obedient enough to come to salvation and let's get into their pocket book and get some of that tithe money . . . .

What has happened to America? The enemy lied and said that abortion would not be a national sin that it was personal even if it was sin. We do things today that a person would not have done 40 years ago . . . and we continue to degrade the manner in which we treat people.

Now you tell me it is only about money . . .

Pastor - it is about sin. Without the corporate greed that is rampant in America today, most Americans would be getting significantly more pay - not because it is about money. Because it is about not wanting to pay employees what they are worth - sin.

Greed is what led us down the path of sacrificing millions of the unborn. Greed is what is leading us down the path of needing two income earners in a household to make a comparable living to 1980. Greed is what is destroying our country. Excessive 'profit taking' will continue to degrade our capability to perform our work as Christians.

Greed. And what would you advise me to do? Hide my head in the sand and not preach the truth?

I will preach the truth of God's Word:

17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

I still cannot find where it says, "Abuse your employees and do not pay them well." Instead I find that the rich are to build up their foundation for a time to come "that they may lay hold" of "eternal life".

 

[Revmitchell]

What is the standard for not enough pay? What is the standard for abuse?

If you are being mistreated by an employer go get another job. Start your own business. Blaming others for your plight is not a godly principle. Maybe you could begin to rely on the biblical principle of countingon God for your provisions instead of the employer. When you get disgruntled at your employer or others about what you cannot control what you are really doing is getting angry at God. He alone is our source for provisions.

Blaming the rich, the government, or anyone else is a failure to focus on God.

 

[El_Guero]

And the greatest irony is that so many do not see the hand of Almighty God as He prepares to judge this people for our national sin.

Millions were slaughtered for the gods of this world.

He will judge us and will continue to allow us the desires of our hearts . . . money, avarice, greed, power all require that someone else has less, is willing to give up to the greedy, and do not have the power to change the wrong that is being done.

Supply and demand should indicate that wages would be at a significant premium compared to 1950, 1960, 1970, & 1980 . . . but, they are at an almost all time low. If I remember my research correctly, only during the great depression were real wages this low . . . profits are at all time high . . . wages at a century level low . . . workers are at an all time low. Supply and demand? No it is GREED pure and simple.

You continue to try to place a motive of greed in this heart of mine . . . that is so foolish. Money? Greed? Those have NEVER been my weakness. My sin is much more primal than that. It is common for me to go to work for an employer at 20 - 30% below the other workers and get complemented for being the hardest and longest working worker . . .

I just want to be able to earn a real living without working two jobs . . . so that I can do for the Master what He commands me to do . . . and you equate my motive with greed . . .

Right is right and wrong is wrong. Not paying your employees enough to live on, not paying for them to have medical insurance, and making the lower classes carry the tax burden from the increase in profits of the wealthy are all indications that a few are getting rich at the expense of the many.

 

[El_Guero]

Blame? You must not understand Texican . . . do you really want the blame of millions of the unborn (their blood) on your hands?

Angry at God for the sin of this world?

Do you really want me to go there? I really hope that you realize the shortsightedness of your commentary.

God will (& has begun) to judge us for our economic choice of murdering our children. Do you not see that once we as a nation said that they do not matter, that corporations have begun to say that employees, their benefits, and even their basic salaries do not matter to them?

To me the sin and effect (result of that sin) are black and white.

What is the standard for not enough pay? What is the standard for abuse?

If you are being mistreated by an employer go get another job. Start your own business. Blaming others for your plight is not a godly principle. Maybe you could begin to rely on the biblical principle of countingon God for your provisions instead of the employer. When you get disgruntled at your employer or others about what you cannot control what you are really doing is getting angry at God. He alone is our source for provisions.

Blaming the rich, the government, or anyone else is a failure to focus on God.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Our problem is not as much a taxation issue as a spending one. Our government and its citizens are hooked on the crack cocaine of free handouts. Since government is the answer to all of our needs, they must take most of our money to pay for it.

That is the simple truth. What many of our citizens fail to realize is that every time they except that "free" handout from the government it comes with a loss of freedom.

 

[Pastor Larry]

we have the right to not earn less.

And where did the gospel give us this right? When I read the Bible, I see a stunning silence on the issue you are here concerned about. In fact, Christ warns us against it in Matthew 6.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ does not demand better treatment - it commands it.

Really? Is that why people lost everything for the sake of Christ? Is that why the Scripture commands us not to lay up treasure in this world, but to leave it all for the sake of the kingdom? As an employer, you should treat your employees well. As a worker, you should work well without complaint so that the gospel will be properly adorned (Titus 2:9-10).

When we in America are lead by the rich and they do not take care of their workers and even export the jobs and fire their workers . . . are they living according to God's Word? Or, are they in sin?

Why should you make more money when people in other countries are making no money? Why would you not encourage your employer to create jobs where people need them, rather than increasing your salary when you already have a comfortable life (by the world’s standards, and more than comfortable by Christ’s standards)? What part of the gospel allows you to make more when others make less?

What? preach against sin only when it is convenient?

No, preach against it all the time, even when you are guilty of it. But repent first, and then preach it.

Preach against sin. Millions of babies (needed workers for our economy) were killed. We now have such a shortage of workers, that we have imported millions in an attempt to replace the ones we let be killed. We need to repent and begin treating our fellow Americans with respect - and if we cannot put our money where our mouths are - then we do not respect our fellow Americans. IMHO.

Why is your respect only for fellow Americans? Why not show concern for Africans who live on $100 a month or less? Why not show concern for Indians who do the same? Perhaps we need to repent of our lack of concern for those made in God’s image who live in other countries. Perhaps we need to repent of our sin of Americanism.

Is your biggest problem with abortion really the fact that it took workers away? Workers who would be competing for your job right now? Or sitting on welfare rolls because they don’t have a job?

Listen, I am totally opposed to abortion in all cases. But you have not made a good argument for it.

Either we biblically take care of our employees, or we are in sin.

I agree. But what does “take care of them” mean biblically? Did God put a number on that? Of course not. But having said that, if you have an employee, take care of them. If you are the employee, then work hard and be satisfied with what you have (1 Tim 6).

I get it . . . preach only part of the Gospel and hope the rich are obedient enough to come to salvation and let's get into their pocket book and get some of that tithe money . . . .

Apparently you don’t get it if you think that is in any way related to what I have said. I preach against the tithe. I preach against people who don’t give more to the local church. I preach against people who get a raise and then spend that raise to increase their standard of living rather than increasing their commitment to the spread of the gospel. I am a little radical that way.

We do things today that a person would not have done 40 years ago . . . and we continue to degrade the manner in which we treat people.

This is simply not true. Overall, people are treated better today in American labor than at anytime in history. (Probably treated too well in many cases.) Second, if it wasn’t for abortion, there would be many more workers, and the marketplace would be flooded with workers, and that drives down wages. So while abortion is absolutely evil and wicked, it actually works against your argument.

Now you tell me it is only about money . . .

I didn’t tell you that.

Pastor - it is about sin. Without the corporate greed that is rampant in America today, most Americans would be getting significantly more pay - not because it is about money. Because it is about not wanting to pay employees what they are worth - sin.

First, you don’t have to call me Pastor. “Larry” will work just fine for me. Second, if it wasn’t for the personal greed that is rampant in America today, people in third world countries would be getting significantly more pay. Not wanting to pay them more is sin. Why should you line your pockets, or live in a bigger house, or drive a newer car when people in other countries don’t even have a house. You have running water? You are richer than most people in the world.

How do you justify from Scripture your Americanism at the expense of those made in God’s image in other countries? Why should you make more while they make less?

Greed is what is destroying our country.

That was exactly my point. And it is hard to understand how your harping about needing more money is not greed. You want to transfer the money from the business owners and risk takers to the workers. I want to transfer it to the spread of the gospel.

Excessive 'profit taking' will continue to degrade our capability to perform our work as Christians.

How so? Profit taking doesn’t affect me in the least. As a Christian, I can work hard no matter how much profit anyone takes.

Greed. And what would you advise me to do? Hide my head in the sand and not preach the truth?

No, by all means, preach the truth from Scripture. But preach what Scripture says. You will find nothing about American jobs in there. You will find nothing about “the sin” of exporting American jobs. (And I am against it, in the main.) But that is simply not a topic addressed in Scripture.

I will preach the truth of God's Word:

then I will welcome you to join me.

Charge them that are rich in this world

You are one of “the rich in this world.” If you have a job in America, you make more than most of the world’s working population.

Are you being fair and good to the people who live in Africa? India? Bangladesh? China?

I still cannot find where it says, "Abuse your employees and do not pay them well."

I can’t either. But I can’t find where anyone suggested that, so I am not sure why you bring it up here.



In the end, I imagine we probably have a fundamental disagreement about the claims and implications of the gospel. I will stick with the gospel that Jesus and Paul preached.

 

[El_Guero]

Pastor

You preach the Gospel to the Rich and getting Richer, and I will preach to the down trodden.

Just remember that your own words condemn your wisdom: "As an employer, you should treat your employees well."

I believe that the Holy Spirit is trying to speak through you as His mouthpiece in spite of your theology . . . But, He will not speak through you long if you continue to believe that He will not judge us for abortion . . . you can try to say that He is not already judging us . . . but He will judge the national sin of abortion. And that is truly a fundamental difference between the 'gospel' you preach . . . And the 'Gospel' that Jesus, Paul, and I preach - you really should not have tried to go there . . . but, you did and the shoe fits so wear it . . . Your welcome.

Further, real wages are at a century low . . . yes, we as Americans have been wealthy for a long time. That does not mean that we should pay our fellow Americans $100 a year . . . do you realize how long it has been since that was a living wage in the US of A?

 

[El_Guero]

Yes sir, economic enslavement costs the country a lot of money. And those at the top profiting want to pay less in taxes . . . and shift that tax burden down upon those that are making less than Americans have in a long time.

Economic enslavement is almost as wicked as abortion. IMHO.

That is the simple truth. What many of our citizens fail to realize is that every time they except that "free" handout from the government it comes with a loss of freedom.