USA Today: Bush's tax cuts benefit all income levels; AMT must be fixed

My church is in an urban, very economically depressed area. There is no one in my church "rich and getting richer." There is no one in my community that way. While I was typing this email, I answered a phone call from someone wanting money to help with rent. I get calls and visits from people who need food. So I am not preaching to the rich (who need to be saved as well, so I am not sure what would be wrong with that.)

But if you preach, make sure you preach the gospel ... that Jesus died for people's sins to save them. What you have been harping on here is not hte gospel.

How does this condemn my wisdom? This is exactly what i have been saying. Listen, there are two sides here, and the Bible addresses both.

1. Workers -- Work hard for your employer so that the gospel is properly adorned (Col 3; 1 Tim 6; Titus 2).
2. Employers -- Treat your employees well because you too have a master in heaven (col 3-4; 1 Tim 6; Titus 2).

The Bible does not tell us what a fair wage is. The Bible does not hold the employees responsible for the sins of the employer. In fact, the Bible commands workers to be submissive to master even when they are unreasonable (1 Peter 2:18). Are you willing to do that? How is the gospel adorned by your complaining about money and wages?

If you don't think you are making enough money, then tell your employer, and look for another job. If he thinks you are worth more, he will pay you more. It's that simple. I worked in the business world. I know how it works. Here are two real cases, in which I could name the names of the people who were involved.

Case 1 - The IT guy thought he was underpaid and mistreated. He found another job offer and told his supervisor. The supervisor said, "We want you to stay. We will beat your new salary and give you better working conditions (hours, etc,.)"

Case 2 - A salesperson thought she was underpaid and mistreated. She found another job offer and went and told her supervisor. The supervisor said, "Bye."

In one case, the employer was willing to pay what the employee thought he was worth because of his value to the company. In the second case, the employer was not willing to pay what the employee thought she was worth. I know for a fact that she was not doing a good job and was on teh verge of getting fired anyway.

Perhaps he is trying to speak to you through my theology, since my theology is solidly rooted in Scripture and yours is not. Perhaps this exchange is takign place because you are holding to a wrong position and no one has yet been willing to stand up and say "Wait a minute. Let's talk about Scripture here."

You have bought into a wrong philosophy that is infecting much of American evangelicalism. You seem more concerned about wages than you are about the gospel, and the spiritual plight of people. Perhaps you are not more concerned about that, but your whole participation in this thread seems to be whining becuase you want to make more money.

Do you have covering? Do you have food? Then be content. And if you think that sounds familiar, it should. It is 1 Tim 6:8.

We need to be a little more radical in our Christianity and quit toeing someone's political line.

 

BTW, I can't help but notice how you totally avoid my questions about your concern for the wages of people elsewhere.

 

El G, you keep using the term "economic enslavement." I see two problems:

1. You're putting all wealthy (without even having defined "wealthy," but that's another point) folks in the same boat. There are scores of rich folks out there who are taking care of their employees.
2. Wouldn't excessive confiscatory taxes make the government guilty of "economic enslavement?"

I'm not sure you're arguing against economic enslavement. It sounds to me that you simply want to change masters.

 

I am against abortion no less than anyone else. But I fail to see the connection between the economy and abortion.

AS far as getting mad at God, when you become angry at the world for not providing you a particular salary, whether it is sin or not, you are failing to acknowledge that God is your provider. When we see God as our provider then we are at peace about our provisions. Trust in God not the world.

 

Angry? I don't meed to get angry to tell the truth . . .

But, when I was in college . . . I earned the equivalent of 90k as a low skilled laborer. The skilled laborers earned about 150k todays money . . .

. . . I have routinely turned down 80 - 100k for work in the IT field . . . Degree, years of experience . . . and a lot less money on the table.

I am sorry that you have difficulty seeing the obvious decline in real wages in America . . .

But, if everyone would heed the advice they gave me, "If the rich want to make 'more money and pay less taxes' then they should quit and go to Africa and get greedy there". IMHO.

I am not union. But, there is no reason why with record profits and 2 decades of economic growth that American employees are earning 20 - 30% (for the lower 60% of the IRS reported incomes) than they did in comparison to the 1980 returns . . . the data is clear. The upper 20% are doing much better (the top 10% is doing extremely well) and the next 20% is doing slightly better. But, the bottom 40% of our workforce is doing much worse . . .

Not only do you want the bottom 60% of the workforce (that is a majority right?) to do worse than they did compared to 40 years ago, you want them to pay the taxes on the increased wealth of the rich.

Maybe that makes sense to you, but it does not make sense to me. But, if you want to put your money where your mouth is - you can pay my taxes for me.

No takers? I guess that money is more important to you than you want to admit.

I believe that God is giving over to the desires of our hearts . . . abortion & the other forms of greed will destroy our country.

I failed to acknowledge God? I won't answer your evident mistake.

Personally, I am gonna throw what you serve right back at ya', if you were content with what God gave ya' . . . ya' wouldn't have used that argument . . .

I don't . . . my net worth is about zero, and it is there so that I can serve my Lord.

 

This is an interesting thread.

With the obvious data, . . . I assume the data is obvious, because no one is arguing the data; my theology, my commitment, my love of God, my piety, my poverty, my motive (anger instead of truth), and maybe even my integrity have been questioned, but the data has not been attacked.

I don't understand this.

Granddad always said, "If you don't understand something, look for the money involved."

What am I missing? Do we have men of God making that much more than the lower middle class? Do we have men of God willing to cut corners on their theology because of economic incentive?

God's Word says, not to muzzle the ox . . . "the laborer is worthy of his wages" . . . "For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages"." . . . "Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you, cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabbath."

And then the words of those against me . . . even these words would seem to indicate that we are almost in agreement.

I am not for robbin hood economics. But, I am against the outcry of how expensive the labor force is . . . America has always been an expensive labor force - it costs much more for the laborers to live here.

I just don't get it. What are we in such disagreement over that some would question my allegiance to my Lord?

 

have you given us data? You've referenced some "IRS tables," but if you know the site, post it...

We're having to take your word for it...

I'm not saying you're being untruthful, but we haven't actually seen the data to which you refer.

 

Rbell,

I am still reeling from my theology and motive being attacked because I genuinely believe that the economic greed of our country is getting worse.

The data should be recoverable by googling

+"heads of household" +income +1980 +2000 +IRS

The other data needed for comparison is:

+"median income" +1980 +2000

I believe the only state that reported median incomes for the years I used was Michigan (could have been Minnesota).

It took me about 30 - 40 hours of research . . .

the IRS and some tax repeal site had great charts. The one site trying to support how over taxed the wealthy was using IRS data to show that real (reportable) income for the very wealthy had more than doubled, but their tax burden had gone up about 30% (all in real dollar amounts).

Again, this was a couple of years back . . . have fun.

 

rbell

When I worked in the oil patch (summer job), I was making between 20 and 25k a year . . . the better paid were making about 5k to 8k more. My dad with about 10 years experience was over 40k. Management made much more. And I personally knew people making over 80k . . . without leaving home. Offshore and overseas started at around 50k back then.

New brick homes went for between 40 and about 48k (rural texas) . . . anyway you want to cut it, I think that you can compare my wages then with your present location.

This one is comparable.

http://www.realtor.com/FindHome/Hom...xlid=1068256712&source=a10120&poe=homebuilder

This one is not

http://www.realtor.com/FindHome/Hom...xlid=1066415924&source=a10120&poe=homebuilder

Using new home prices . . .
http://www.nahb.org/generic.aspx?genericContentID=503

Compared to national housing prices, my pay would have grown to about 80K . . .

There were around 80,000 men in my home area just working on oil rigs . . . not counting the other jobs. I wasn't lucky. I wasn't one of a couple that got taken care of by the boss or a friend. I was below average . . .

 

The new Harley I bought was right at 8 weeks pay . . . it goes for 13k now . . .

6500/month . . . is 80k.

Great money for a college kid. And I was 25% below the others . . . A bunch of my friends went bankrupt (I don't blame anyone for that). But, I do believe that we can afford to pay our employees enough money that they can afford a new house.

IMHO.

 

You could explain the logic in that. I dont get it. As far as the data being correct you could post the link to your info. It may be correct but the employees dont owe anyone anything. There are other factors you have not entered into the equation. The salaries an employer pays is often based on several things:

1. The amount of money consumers are willing to pay for goods or services.

2. The amount of work comp insurance per employee. This varies based on risk involved in activities performed for specific jobs.

3. The amount of monies the employer has to pay for equipment, buildings, and insurances which is often considerable.

Botom line is employers are not the bottomless pit that they are pictured to be. And employee salaries are more often determined by the market and the consumers willingness to pay for goods and services.

3.

 

I can't . . . it was your logic not mine.

I don't get it either.

PS - I have never asked the employers to be a bottomless pit - God already has one of those.

I have asked that American employees not be asked to continue taking pay cuts . . . and tax increases. Pay increases should go with tax increases. The wealthy are getting pay increases . . . and tax cuts . . .

 

El Guero

There are several issues I have.

First, you assume that real wages are lower. I have seen no proof of that. But what difference does it make? Where is anyone guaranteed the right to make as much as anyone else, whether now or later? I am not sure that right exists. I have never seen it, in Scripture (which is really important), or in the constitution (which is less important).

Second, neither you nor your theology were attacked. This is a discussion. You made a number of assertions that were challenged. Don’t take it personally. Think about what was said and either agree or disagree. But either way, realize this is a discussion. You were not attacked.

If you have turned down 80-100K, then you can’t really complain about not making enough money.

You said (presumably about me) that “Not only do you want the bottom 60% of the workforce (that is a majority right?) to do worse than they did compared to 40 years ago, you want them to pay the taxes on the increased wealth of the rich.”

That’s an absurd statement. I don’t care what anyone makes. And I think everyone pays too much in tax. But to assert that the lower classes are paying taxes on the increased wealth of the rich is an assertion that can only exist in liberalism. Being a member of the lower class, economically, I can say without fear of contradiction that I do not pay taxes on the increased wealth of anyone.

You said that people ought be to able to afford a new house. Why? Why not raise a generation of people who are willing to leave houses and homes and families for the sake of the gospel? That is my argument. We are raising a materialistic generation who think they ought to have more. I think we have too much already.

They do. We have a graduated tax bracket where people who make more, pay more. I am not sure what exactly you are arguing against. The wealthy get pay increases and tax increases. This year, due to an unfortunate circumstance of death in the family, I have a tremendously increased tax burden because even though my living income didn’t go up, I show a greater income on my 1040. At the same time, next year, when that doesn’t show, my taxes will go way down again.

But I notice you have not yet addressed the issue of your unconcern for the salaries and living conditions of the image of God in third world countries. Why do you get mad at those who try to raise the living conditions there by raising salaries there? Why do you insist on hoarding it all for Americans? Isn't that kind of selfish on your part?


Do you believe that only American deserve a living wage? Do you believe that only Americans deserve to have a house and car and running water and electricity? Why?

 

Jesus is more than enough for me . . . :type:

 

Then why the complaint about wages?

I also wonder about the other questions I have asked. I am not sure why you aren't answering them. But I am truly interested in how you justify your disregard for the wages of people in other countries.

Why do you get mad at those who raise the living conditions there by raising salaries in poor countries? Why do you insist on hoarding it all for Americans? Isn't that kind of selfish on your part?

Do you believe that only American deserve a living wage? Do you believe that only Americans deserve to have a house and car and running water and electricity? Why?

How do you respond to the fact that God tells you to be content with what you have?

How do you respond to the fact that God in his revelation is remarkably silent on the wages that we earn?

How do you respond to the fact that Jesus called us to leave all to follow him?


Wouldn't we be better off raising a generation who cares about Christ rather than their salaries?

 

Larry

I have no idea what you are referring to.

You tell me that I am wrong, but you are right. Then you tell me that you agree with me. And oh yeah by the way, you weren't attacking me.

You lost me somewhere in all of that.

I respond to the thread - what are you responding to?

I still stand by my statements. American employees have lost real income since 1980. The top 10-20% of the American heads of households now make 2 times what the top did in 1980. The top carries about 30% more of the tax load than it did in in 1980. The bottom earns about 30% less of the GDP than it did in 1980. The bottom carries a greater tax burden than it did (I do NOT remember the amount).

I am not against the rich making money. But, as a Christian, I am concerned for the members of my church that are not making it. They should not have to struggle like this just to make ends meet.

I gave real data, you haven't given me any data showing that real incomes of the lower 60% have gone up. You can even try to find data for the 21% to 60% (the bottom 20% are in real economic hardship - and welfare has gone up - someone else pointed this out.)

Nor, should the wealthy of this country hear that it is OK to export jobs from America and not take care of their employees. I am not saying that all jobs have to stay here, but I do not want an employer eliminating jobs without a real conscience. There should always be struggle between getting filthy rich and taking care of the employees (IMHO).

 

Intresting.

1. You assume my motive . . . sounds more like you struggle with greed. That has never been my problem . . .

2. I am not mad at anyone - sin is sin. I am a chief sinner. Hoarding it? Never a part of my commentary . . . and I do not know where you are trying to take the discussion with that - the OP was about tax cuts. Sounds like God is trying to deal with you about a financial matter, but that should not be any of my business.

3. Everyone deserves a living wage. Why do you only want the rich to get wealthy?

4. I am content with what I have. Greed has never been one of my problems. I really do not get this - are you that annoyed that I turned down that much money to follow God? I am not.

5. God revealed that workers should be treated with respect. I believe, I stated, and I believe that there has been no refutation that the American worker has lost a significant piece of the American profit (the pie). I do believe that the current profit taking without regard to the American worker is sin.

6. I responded to Jesus by forsaking alot. Funny, you weren't there.

7. Your motive of attacking my position because of 'liberalism' is much clearer than your use of Scripture. I am not now, nor have I ever been liberal. I do not ask the rich to give me their money. I do not want taxes added to keep people on welfare. But, taxation and government are a necessary part of a strong country and a strong economy.

All I have asked is that the wealthy continue to pay their share. Especially if they want to continue to reduce the American wages. If they can make twice as much profit, then pay the workers . . .

I want the Kennedys to pay their taxes on their tax sheltered foundations . . . but, that won't go anywhere.

 

You don't struggle with greed, but you complain that people have more money than you, and that your boss should give you a raise rather than buy a hummer?

You say American's have lost "real wages" since 1980. I say "Maybe," but what difference does it make? Unless we are living for money, having enough to survive is all we need.

To say that profit taking is sin is completely unsubstantiated. When does profit taking become too much? You enter into a realm for which there is no biblcial support. A employer should treat his employees well. The Bible puts no numbers on that.

I don't care what anyone makes. Make all you can, and use it for the kingdom.

But why won't you answer simple questions?

Why do you get mad at those who raise the living conditions there by raising salaries in poor countries? Why do you insist on hoarding it all for Americans? Isn't that kind of selfish on your part?

Do you believe that only American deserve a living wage? Do you believe that only Americans deserve to have a house and car and running water and electricity? Why?

How do you respond to the fact that God tells you to be content with what you have?

How do you respond to the fact that God in his revelation is remarkably silent on the wages that we earn?

How do you respond to the fact that Jesus called us to leave all to follow him?