Using Study Tools

[canadyjd]

Folks, this person makes one negative statement after another, all false and none quoting me…!!

I stated a person doesn’t need a degree in biblical Greek to use a lexicon. You are claiming that is a false statement.

I stated a person doesn’t even need a formal degree to be a Greek expert (that would be rare). You are claiming that is a false statement.

I never stated anyone posting on this board should submit their post for peer review.

You have made several attempts to claim verses “could be” translated in a way that deviates from established understanding. I suggested you compose a scholarly work of your opinion and submit it for peer review. Who knows, maybe scholars will agree with you.

As usual, you are “knee jerk” offended if anyone disagrees with you and then claim victim status.

AND… there are scholars on this board @John of Japan is one, that have patiently attempted to explain to you why your “could be translated as” statements do not conform to known word usage in Biblical Greek.

Instead of attempting to learn, you desire nothing more than having your unsupported opinions made known to any who will listen.

All done now @Van.

peace to you

 

[Van]

I stated a person doesn’t need a degree in biblical Greek to use a lexicon. You are claiming that is a false statement.

I stated a person doesn’t even need a formal degree to be a Greek expert (that would be rare). You are claiming that is a false statement.

I never stated anyone posting on this board should submit their post for peer review.

You have made several attempts to claim verses “could be” translated in a way that deviates from established understanding. I suggested you compose a scholarly work of your opinion and submit it for peer review. Who knows, maybe scholars will agree with you.

As usual, you are “knee jerk” offended if anyone disagrees with you and then claim victim status.

AND… there are scholars on this board @John of Japan is one, that have patiently attempted to explain to you why your “could be translated as” statements do not conform to known word usage in Biblical Greek.

Instead of attempting to learn, you desire nothing more than having your unsupported opinions made known to any who will listen.

All done now @Van.

peace to you

Folks, this person makes one negative statement after another, all false and none quoting me.

No "real scholar" has objected to my "interpretive translations" which reflect my understanding of the meaning of the verse.

No one else is required to have their posts "peer reviewed" before sharing. The suggestion is utter nonsense.

Did I ever claim my views were as good as "the experts?" No quote will be forthcoming. I do state that experts disagree and therefore in those cases either one of them or both of them are wrong. This is not rocket science.

Many times the claim is made by Calvinists that I do not understand something. But that "ad homenim" is the standard method used to undercut all those who disagree.

I do repeatedly state bible students do not need degrees to study the bible, but they need training in how to study the bible. How to use a "reverse interlinear" or an "exhaustive concordance" or "lexicons." English dictionaries, bible dictionaries and books presenting the cultural of the times are also needed.

And in summary I say those who only use and adopt views from the dark ages usually do not even know how to study the bible. Often they cannot even do a word search!!

 

[canadyjd]

Folks, this person makes one negative statement after another, all false and none quoting me.

No "real scholar" has objected to my "interpretive translations" which reflect my understanding of the meaning of the verse.

No one else is required to have their posts "peer reviewed" before sharing. The suggestion is utter nonsense.

Did I ever claim my views were as good as "the experts?" No quote will be forthcoming. I do state that experts disagree and therefore in those cases either one of them or both of them are wrong. This is not rocket science.

Many times the claim is made by Calvinists that I do not understand something. But that "ad homenim" is the standard method used to undercut all those who disagree.

I do repeatedly state bible students do not need degrees to study the bible, but they need training in how to study the bible. How to use a "reverse interlinear" or an "exhaustive concordance" or "lexicons." English dictionaries, bible dictionaries and books presenting the cultural of the times are also needed.

And in summary I say those who only use and adopt views from the dark ages usually do not even know how to study the bible. Often they cannot even do a word search!!

Copy and paste of Post #18…

Doesn’t sound any more convincing the second time around.

Goodnight

peace to you

 

[John of Japan]

For me, interacting with Van is like trying to kiss a porcupine. It's never going to turn out well. He accuses me of being a Gnostic, he says I am displeasing the Lord with my comments, etc. etc.

At any rate, a few comments on the thread. First of all, with the software and websites we have nowadays, it is relatively easy for an untutored layman to access the

it is possible for a suitably gifted layman to become a Greek expert or Hebrew expert. (Van is not.) William G. Pierpont, co-editor with Dr. Maurice Robinson of the Byzantine Textform Greek NT, was one. But they are rare. It takes tremendous dedication and much hard work. Jerome, 5th century translator of the Vulgate Bible, spent a whole year living in a cave with a Jewish man in order to learn Hebrew to translate the OT. My friend Bill, a Bible translator (Mongolian and Spanish), purposefully lived in Israel for a long time in order to learn Hebrew. So it is possible, but very difficult.

On the very first day of Greek 101 I tell my students that God has put language ability into every human, since He invented language. This theological position parallels the "Universal Grammar" theory of famous linguist Noam Chomsky. But learning any language takes a lot of hard work. I had to spend two years studying Japanese full time (35-40 hours a week) in order to become fluent at a professional level. But I kept studying on my own after that, in partiular the Chinese "kanji" characters. So it takes lots of hard work and dedication.

The same goes for Bible translation. In order to become a competent translator it takes lots of hard work. I've known translators with no formal training who did a good job. However, that is through simple native talent, given by God. Not every man in the pew can to that, obviously

 

[Van]

Copy and paste of Post #18…

Doesn’t sound any more convincing the second time around.

Goodnight

peace to you

Returning to the thread topic, Bible study tool usage:

Lets say you read a post on this board that uses the term "Atonement." But what is the actual biblical basis for using that term?
An Exhaustive Concordance is the tool you could use to answer your great question.

If your primary study bible is the NKJV, the "EC" will provide the references to the about 99 times the word appears. The "EC" will also provide which Hebrew words have been translated as "atonement."

"Kapar" (Strong's number 3722) is translated as atonement about 71 times but in other places it is translated forgive, or pardon, or pacify. The underlying idea is to "reconcile" or bring together what was apart. Thus a sinner in a separated state from our Holy God, is "reconciled" when God accepts the sacrifice of Christ and takes away all that caused the separation, nailing those charges upon the cross so to speak. Thus when a believer is "made alive together with Christ" his or her reconciliation has been accomplished by the washing of regeneration which results in being made alive.

Thus using study tools and bible study training can help us understand God's messages in scripture. Everyone who sits in a pew can learn to study God's word to show themselves approved.

 

[Van]

Let us consider the translation of the KJV of "katallage" (G2643) as atonement at Romans 5:11. Rather than "atonement" the NKJV correctly translates the Greek word as reconciliation. Notice that believers have now received the reconciliation, thus a separate action of God from Christ's substitutionary sacrifice on the cross. His death provides the mean of reconciliation, but only after God bestows that reconciliation upon those of His choosing, do we become reconciled. Thus God is reconciling humanity one sinner at a time.

 

[JD731]

Let us consider the translation of the KJV of "katallage" (G2643) as atonement at Romans 5:11. Rather than "atonement" the NKJV correctly translates the Greek word as reconciliation. Notice that believers have now received the reconciliation, thus a separate action of God from Christ's substitutionary sacrifice on the cross. His death provides the mean of reconciliation, but only after God bestows that reconciliation upon those of His choosing, do we become reconciled. Thus God is reconciling humanity one sinner at a time.

This is NOT the gospel of God..

Here is the gospel of God;

Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

The shedding of the blood of Christ is the reconciliation of the whole world. The pure blood of Christ provides what is required as the only acceptable sacrifice for sins and God will receive it from any sinner that approaches him with this sacrifice and in his name.

Christians must get the gospel right.

The reason it is Paul's gospel is because it is the gospel of grace which he has been given to take to the whole world. What is that message of grace to the world. The door of faith is open now, the debt has been paid, and whosoever will let him come and take of the water of life freely.

 

[JonC]

Let us consider the translation of the KJV of "katallage" (G2643) as atonement at Romans 5:11. Rather than "atonement" the NKJV correctly translates the Greek word as reconciliation. Notice that believers have now received the reconciliation, thus a separate action of God from Christ's substitutionary sacrifice on the cross. His death provides the mean of reconciliation, but only after God bestows that reconciliation upon those of His choosing, do we become reconciled. Thus God is reconciling humanity one sinner at a time.

Yep.

2 Corinthians 5:19–20 God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

 

[Van]

This is NOT the gospel of God..

Here is the gospel of God;

Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

The shedding of the blood of Christ is the reconciliation of the whole world. The pure blood of Christ provides what is required as the only acceptable sacrifice for sins and God will receive it from any sinner that approaches him with this sacrifice and in his name.

Christians must get the gospel right.

The reason it is Paul's gospel is because it is the gospel of grace which he has been given to take to the whole world. What is that message of grace to the world. The door of faith is open now, the debt has been paid, and whosoever will let him come and take of the water of life freely.

This is NOT the gospel, but a jumble of clearly unbiblical nonsense.

1) The shedding of the blood of Christ is NOT the reconciliation of the world. His sacrifice provides the means of reconciliation for all of humanity. 1 John 2:2.

2) The fact that Christ's sacrifice is the means of reconciliation is not in dispute.

3) Sinners to not give Christ's sacrifice to God.

To repeat, Let us consider the translation of the KJV of "katallage" (G2643) as atonement at Romans 5:11. Rather than "atonement" the NKJV correctly translates the Greek word as reconciliation. Notice that believers have now received the reconciliation, thus a separate action of God from Christ's substitutionary sacrifice on the cross. His death provides the mean of reconciliation, but only after God bestows that reconciliation upon those of His choosing, do we become reconciled. Thus God is reconciling humanity one sinner at a time.

Romans 5:11 "...we have now received the reconciliation..."
Romans 11:15 "...brings reconciliation to the world..."
2 Corinthians 5:18 "God who reconciled us to Himself..."
2 Corinthians 5:19 God is reconciling humanity to Himself, and that is our message of reconciliation.

Obviously everyone has not been reconciled, that is why we are to spread the word, 2 Corinthians 5:20.

 

[JD731]

Yep.

2 Corinthians 5:19–20 God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

That certainly is the message to men. It is to every one because God through Christ has been reconciled to every one of us. Reconciliation is two sided. It makes sense on God’s side. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law of God perfectly and took sin away. Where there is no law there is no transgression. Now it is our turn to be reconciled to him.

I am going to copy and paste the first few times in the OT where "atonement" shows up and how it is that men are making atonement to God but in the NT God has made atonement for men. In the OT atonement was made yearly but in the NT it was a one time deal. This is the reason one sees the word atonement in the NT one time only. In the OT times men made atonement to God. In the NT men are to "receive" the atonement God has made on behalf of men.

Ex 29:36 And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.
Ex 29:37 Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy.
Ex 30:10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.
Ex 30:15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
Ex 30:16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
Ex 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
Le 1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
Le 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
Le 4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
Le 4:31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Rom 5:88 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I get this reasoning and logic. I do not know why this is so hard for some people. God has not limited his atonement. he has made atonement broad. Not for his friends only but for his enemies. God has been reconciled to the world through this once for all time sacrifice of his son and these men in Romans said they had "now" received the atonement. Look, men receive the atonement when they receive the "gift" in this passage, who is Life and the Spirit indwelling the body of those who receive him. The presence of God which has never been attainable by men because of their sins now have the eternal presence of God dwelling in them when they receive him. How? Through God's sacrifice of his own Son and the shedding of his blood that alone can wash away sin. The reason God sends out those who have received it is because this knowledge is passed on by word of mouth.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Having a good working understanding of the biblical languages certainly provides the believer with the possibility of enhanced understanding of some passages in Scripture.

For example, consider the following passage:

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

A normal, natural reading of the beginning of this verse in English would lead one to believe that James teaches that in many things we offend all people, that is, we offend everybody, everyone etc. That reading regards “all” as the direct object of the verb “offend,” which is what a proper understanding of normal English grammar and syntax would indicate for that phrasing.

An examination of the original text, however, shows that this is a wrong understanding of what James teaches. Regardless of which Greek manuscript families we look at (BGT, BYZ, or SCR), the original reading is the same—the Greek word (ἅπαντες) that is rendered “all” in the verse is in a Greek case (the nominative case) that is *never* the direct object of a verb.

BGT James 3:2 πολλὰ γὰρ πταίομεν ἅπαντες. εἴ τις ἐν λόγῳ οὐ πταίει, οὗτος τέλειος ἀνὴρ δυνατὸς χαλιναγωγῆσαι καὶ ὅλον τὸ σῶμα.

BYZ James 3:2 Πολλὰ γὰρ πταίομεν ἅπαντες. Εἴ τις ἐν λόγῳ οὐ πταίει, οὗτος τέλειος ἀνήρ, δυνατὸς χαλιναγωγῆσαι καὶ ὅλον τὸ σῶμα.

SCR James 3:2 πολλὰ γὰρ πταίομεν ἅπαντες. εἴ τις ἐν λόγῳ οὐ πταίει, οὗτος τέλειος ἀνήρ, δυνατὸς χαλιναγωγῆσαι καὶ ὅλον τὸ σῶμα.

The correct understanding of the first part of James 3:2, therefore, is that we all offend in many things—it is not that we offend all people, everyone, etc.

This is a clear example that shows how reading the Bible in the original languages can greatly help us to interpret it correctly!

 

[JD731]

This is NOT the gospel, but a jumble of clearly unbiblical nonsense.

1) The shedding of the blood of Christ is NOT the reconciliation of the world. His sacrifice provides the means of reconciliation for all of humanity. 1 John 2:2.

2) The fact that Christ's sacrifice is the means of reconciliation is not in dispute.

3) Sinners to not give Christ's sacrifice to God.

To repeat, Let us consider the translation of the KJV of "katallage" (G2643) as atonement at Romans 5:11. Rather than "atonement" the NKJV correctly translates the Greek word as reconciliation. Notice that believers have now received the reconciliation, thus a separate action of God from Christ's substitutionary sacrifice on the cross. His death provides the mean of reconciliation, but only after God bestows that reconciliation upon those of His choosing, do we become reconciled. Thus God is reconciling humanity one sinner at a time.

Romans 5:11 "...we have now received the reconciliation..."
Romans 11:15 "...brings reconciliation to the world..."
2 Corinthians 5:18 "God who reconciled us to Himself..."
2 Corinthians 5:19 God is reconciling humanity to Himself, and that is our message of reconciliation.

Obviously everyone has not been reconciled, that is why we are to spread the word, 2 Corinthians 5:20.

It is not a mistake to say that Jesus Christ took away the sin of the world. God knows that but many men do not. God was angry with sinners every day we are told in the OT. One must ask the question; if God were angry because men were sinners but he had been been propitiated on the behalf of all men in the world throughout this age even while they were sinners by the sacrifice of Christ, why can't a man reasonably say God has been reconciled to the whole world even though all men have not yet been reconciled to God? There is no judgement of God in this age because why would God who has been reconciled to the world judge men for sins? Did God receive the substitutionary sacrifice for our sins or did he not? Was his sacrifice the atonement? Well, the fact is he did and it is.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The question is now; did he put away sin at the cross? God is going to judge sinners for their sins, but not while they live.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This is how all sinners can come for their own personal reconciliation with God. They must hear about it first.

 

[Van]

Having a good working understanding of the biblical languages certainly provides the believer with the possibility of enhanced understanding of some passages in Scripture.

For example, consider the following passage:

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

A normal, natural reading of the beginning of this verse in English would lead one to believe that James teaches that in many things we offend all people, that is, we offend everybody, everyone etc. That reading regards “all” as the direct object of the verb “offend,” which is what a proper understanding of normal English grammar and syntax would indicate for that phrasing.

SNIP

The correct understanding of the first part of James 3:2, therefore, is that we all offend in many things—it is not that we offend all people, everyone, etc.

This is a clear example that shows how reading the Bible in the original languages can greatly help us to interpret it correctly!

Yes, bible study helps us get past poor or errant translation choices in our primary study bible. In the case you cited, the KJV made the errant translation choice, whereas the NKJV fixed it. (Also the NASB, NET, etc)

As far as knowing enough Greek grammar to discern translation errors, I think most of us can take the short cut of comparing our translation with ones that do a pretty good job of translating the Greek grammar into English, such as the NASB or NET.

 

[Van]

It is not a mistake to say that Jesus Christ took away the sin of the world. God knows that but many men do not. God was angry with sinners every day we are told in the OT. One must ask the question; if God were angry because men were sinners but he had been been propitiated on the behalf of all men in the world throughout this age even while they were sinners by the sacrifice of Christ, why can't a man reasonably say God has been reconciled to the whole world even though all men have not yet been reconciled to God? There is no judgement of God in this age because why would God who has been reconciled to the world judge men for sins? Did God receive the substitutionary sacrifice for our sins or did he not? Was his sacrifice the atonement? Well, the fact is he did and it is.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The question is now; did he put away sin at the cross? God is going to judge sinners for their sins, but not while they live.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This is how all sinners can come for their own personal reconciliation with God. They must hear about it first.

Please stop simply repeating nonsense.

Does scripture say Jesus took away all the sin of the world?

John 1:29
The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him, and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!​

It is fair to say Jesus has taken the sin of some of humanity, all those who have been to date redeemed. But that occurs when the individual sinner receives the reconciliation.

God demonstrated His love for us, while we were yet sinners.

No verse says God has been propitiated on behalf of all men.. Christ became the means of reconciliation for all humanity on the cross, 1 John 2:2.

Christ is set forth to be the propitiation through faith in his blood. Romans 3:25

Why are you posting these unstudied false claims on a thread about bible study?

 

[JonC]

That certainly is the message to men. It is to every one because God through Christ has been reconciled to every one of us.

No, that is God's Word. And it does not say that God through Christ has reconciled to every one of us.

On the cross God was reconciling the World to Himselves, not counting their sins against them.

That is not individual reconciliation. The passage is speaking of the World (here, the world of man, or mankind).

Individual reconciliation was not accomplished at the cross. There is still a ministry of reconciliation whereby men are urged to be reconciled to God.

@Van is correct in terms of what the passage actually states.

You need to first establish exactly why the meaning of the text itself is insufficient to explain the passage. Then, and only then, should you venture outside of that text.

 

[JD731]

No, that is God's Word. And it does not say that God through Christ has reconciled to every one of us.

On the cross God was reconciling the World to Himselves, not counting their sins against them.

That is not individual reconciliation. The passage is speaking of the World (here, the world of man, or mankind).

Individual reconciliation was not accomplished at the cross. There is still a ministry of reconciliation whereby men are urged to be reconciled to God.

@Van is correct in terms of what the passage actually states.

You need to first establish exactly why the meaning of the text itself is insufficient to explain the passage. Then, and only then, should you venture outside of that text.

You are making no sense in this post.

 

[JonC]

You are making no sense in this post.

I know you do not see the post as making sense. The reason is you find the passage (the text) not to make sense as written.

I am saying that the passage dies not need to be explained. It means what it says, even if one cannot make sense of it.


God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them. We have the ministry if reconciliation, urging men to be reconciled to God.


Think about it awhile before automatically dismissing the idea.

 

[JD731]

Please stop simply repeating nonsense.

Does scripture say Jesus took away all the sin of the world?

John 1:29
The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him, and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!​

It is fair to say Jesus has taken the sin of some of humanity, all those who have been to date redeemed. But that occurs when the individual sinner receives the reconciliation.

God demonstrated His love for us, while we were yet sinners.

No verse says God has been propitiated on behalf of all men.. Christ became the means of reconciliation for all humanity on the cross, 1 John 2:2.

Christ is set forth to be the propitiation through faith in his blood. Romans 3:25

Why are you posting these unstudied false claims on a thread about bible study?

JohnC seems to agree with you.

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom (Jesus Christ) God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

It is not God who has faith in his blood, but God who has been satisfied with the sacrifice of his blood and the individual who comes believing in him will be justified. Verse 26 narrows it down to an individual because each man can come by believing in Jesus to be counted righteous by and to be justified. God is giving the reason here why he can receive any and every man who comes to him in faith. The reason is because this one sacrifice of Jesus Christ is satisfaction for all men.

Here is your statement that I reacted to.

Let us consider the translation of the KJV of "katallage" (G2643) as atonement at Romans 5:11. Rather than "atonement" the NKJV correctly translates the Greek word as reconciliation. Notice that believers have now received the reconciliation, thus a separate action of God from Christ's substitutionary sacrifice on the cross. His death provides the mean of reconciliation, but only after God bestows that reconciliation upon those of His choosing, do we become reconciled. Thus God is reconciling humanity one sinner at a time.

I quoted passages from the OT concerning atonement by blood and also Heb 9 for my point. It was a simple point. I said the new testament saints were reconciled by "receiving" the atonement. In the old testament men made an atonement over and over that could not take away sins. The blood that Jesus Christ shed was a once for all time sacrifice that satisfied God for every man and at all times because it could take away sins when it was applied. God is now not responding to men in anger but by grace. Because God has been corporately reconciled to the world by Christ's one time atoning sacrifice, each individual may come to God in his name and be reconciled to God. This is Paul's prayer, "I pray ye in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God." The next verse points to the one time sacrifice of Jesus Christ as the reason all men can come.. "For he has made him to be sin for us who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

The corporate atonement (if I may use that word) stated clearly.

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This following seems to be the statement that you do not fully agree with.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son (this is the one time atonement and it reconciles God to the world of sinners), much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.(this is the spiritual new birth and is individual)

On a second note: Your braggadocious attitude is not becoming, IMO. God has set forth a good rule for us to follow, I think.

Pr 27:2 Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.

 

[JD731]

I know you do not see the post as making sense. The reason is you find the passage (the text) not to make sense as written.

I am saying that the passage dies not need to be explained. It means what it says, even if one cannot make sense of it.


God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them. We have the ministry if reconciliation, urging men to be reconciled to God.


Think about it awhile before automatically dismissing the idea.

I don't think you read my post that you commented on. I think I understand the logic and reasoning of the treatise of Paul both in 2 Cor 5 and in Rom 5.

 

[JonC]

I don't think you read my post that you commented on. I think I understand the logic and reasoning of the treatise of Paul both in 2 Cor 5 and in Rom 5.

I read your posy, but perhaps I misunderstood your reply.

Exactly what part doesn't make sense to you?