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Vatican Reforms

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Your idea of regeneration differs from mine in that the HS takes an active roll in remaking the creature, convicting and forgiving the sins …. That becomes a long lasting (some would say permanent transformation). You see it in the changes, it’s a born new experience.

I could quote thousands of historical writings demonstrating my understanding of Baptism is universal for the first 1500 years. Infant baptism and regeneration.

But I think the problem always seems to stem from a Protestant idea that the entire Church was universally deceived at some time. All the times mentioned, vary from Protestant to Protestant.

I looked everywhere for it. I wasted years looking for a break in Orthodoxy from the early Churches position on Baptism and infant baptism and the Eucharist.

All I found was universal doctrines.

Baptism = Regeneration, Universal.

Infant Baptism = Consistently practiced for the first 1500 years universally.

The Eucharist= The Body and Blood of Christ, Universally.

Protestantism is not a return to earlier Church beliefs, it is a break from Early Church beliefs, and it creates a historical mythology to justify its unbeliefs.
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
As my beautiful German wife has noted, “cake goes better when paired with coffee in the morning.” I concur!

Well, here we say Cup of tea and a slice of cake.

Quality Black Ceylon tea, dash of milk, no sugar, and slice of lemon cake.

Generally had at morning break, we call Smoko, traditionally being a break when workers could stop to smoke as well.
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
But Catholics do have much enrichment from extra biblical activities that most Protestant denominations will never understand…take Novinas for instance. Then there is Advent & Lenten services. My grandparents both were a part of prayer chains and rosary prayers. That all taps into the human & humble side of Christian devotions. I still read from “My Imitation of Christ“ ßook from Thomas a Kempis I purchased in 12/2004 as a devotional and instructional guide for emulating Christ. I read it each day on my long rides back & forth into NY on a commuter train that was read in addition to my Bible to solidify my daily study’s.

The Nine days between The Ascension and Pentecost is the general reason for the Novena practice, however there is Jewish roots to this as well.

And also with Advent and Lenten service, we also see this preparatory prayer lead up in expectation to the feast days.

It is part of what I call ‘Long Contemplation’ before a significant feast day. You don’t just savour the day itself, but savour the day in expectation. You are extracting the most appreciation by contemplative rumination days leading up.

There is also a joyful expectation of blessing as with the Apostles when the Lord promised them a Helper.

Long Contemplation is God’s pace, we back off the modern accelerator of rattled manic just in time prayer, which I scarcely call prayer all. The pause in the prayer as with the psalms and ecclesiastical prayers we have punctuated silences, there is good reason for these.

We settle in to the ebb and flow and seasonal breathings of the Church, examine hero’s of the past on their commemoration day’s, observe the fasts and feasts with this joyful expectation and thanksgiving of God’s blessing.

It’s not just the examined life that is lived well, but a contemplative life that elevates to the highest things and appreciates and truly savours them. Taking the time and bother to appreciate and savour.
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
The real contrasting argument is the RCC’s practice of passive sacrumentalism Vs a Baptist active participation in their own salvation, whereby the adult baptized person actively chooses to participate in their own salvation and entry into the Christian Church. This active participation visibility cements the individual via choice Vs proxy.

Well it’s not an either or but both for Catholics. Some Protestants in the 1500-1600s made an exclusive rule that only believers baptism is valid, which was never Christian Doctrine.

Were Israelite infants denied inclusion into people of God because they couldn’t make mature profession of belief in God.
No, below the age of reason, children are physically and spiritually subject to their parents, their parents decided for them.
There was never a question of denying infants inclusion in the people God in Jewish belief or Christianity. In fact it is antithetical to Christ’s desire to have little one come to Him.

However this not the end of it.

There is a mature profession later on in Jewish and Catholic traditions.

The bar mitzvah, and Confirmation. Both traditions acknowledge the need for a spiritually mature profession as matter of course, but being below the age of reason should not exclude one from the people of God.

In both traditions we see the same principle of parents answering for their children in spiritual matters, and it is completely legitimate.

This is not an easy thing to wriggle out of since we read the scripture saying.

“And He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and He continued to be subject to them; and His mother treasured all these things in her heart.”

Even God Himself was subject to His parents.

The only controversy in the Early Church was whether the infant should be baptised on the 8th day in line with the jewish custom of circumcision on the 8th day or immediately.

The answer was immediately because Baptism was universally seen as being born again regeneration and immediate Baptism was by necessity therefore.

“For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too.” Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9 (A.D. 244).

“Baptism is given for the remission of sins; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous.” Origen, Homily on Leviticus, 8:3 (post A.D. 244).

“But in respect of the case of the infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day…And therefore, dearest brother, this was our opinion in council, that by us no one ought to be hindered from baptism…we think is to be even more observed in respect of infants and newly-born persons…” Cyprian, To Fidus, Epistle 58(64):2, 6 (A.D. 251).

“Be it so, some will say, in the case of those who ask for Baptism; what have you to say about those who are still children, and conscious neither of the loss nor of the grace? Are we to baptize them too? Certainly, if any danger presses. For it is better that they should be unconsciously sanctified than that they should depart unsealed and uninitiated.” Gregory Nazianzen, Oration on Holy Baptism, 40:28 (A.D. 381).
 

Cathode

Well-Known Member
In Luke 18 Jesus gives us the principle of persistence in prayer and supplication.

The Novena exercises Jesus principal of persistent prayer.

It’s not merely a passing thought that we ask God with, it’s taking real time, bother and effort, this carries more weight, especially if fasting is thrown in with it.

Persistent prayer and fasting has considerable weight behind it.
 
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