Verses Misused to teach Original Sin

[Yeshua1]

Looks like we've got a couple of robots right here on earth.

So I am a heretic for believing the scriptures when they say John bowed down and prayed to either a fellow believer or angel in heaven?

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

So, because I believe the word of God actually means what it says I am a heretic?

I plead guilty.

You are indeed guilty of being one of those that peter say twist and distort/misunderstand the teachings of the Apostle paul!

Bible clearly teaches us that we became estranged from God when Adan fell, and that from Adam/Eve forward, there is NO human being apart from Christ who was ever born pure and untainted by sin in sight of God!

Were we born astray, at war and eminty with God, or does all that happen ONLY if we chose to sin?

 

[DHK]

Looks like we've got a couple of robots right here on earth.

So I am a heretic for believing the scriptures when they say John bowed down and prayed to either a fellow believer or angel in heaven?

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

So, because I believe the word of God actually means what it says I am a heretic?

I plead guilty.

Was it condoned (John bowing down to worship an angel)?
Did you not use it as a basis for saying "there are problems in heaven"?

 

[Winman]

Was it condoned (John bowing down to worship an angel)?
Did you not use it as a basis for saying "there are problems in heaven"?

Who said it was condoned? Not me.

All I am saying is that heaven might not be as perfect as you have all figured out in your head. Obviously, a person is still able to make mistakes in heaven.

If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with the word of God. I am not the one who wrote about John worshiping a fellow believer or angel, John inspired by the Holy Spirit did. Take it up with him.

 

[Yeshua1]

Who said it was condoned? Not me.

All I am saying is that heaven might not be as perfect as you have all figured out in your head. Obviously, a person is still able to make mistakes in heaven.

If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with the word of God. I am not the one who wrote about John worshiping a fellow believer or angel, John inspired by the Holy Spirit did. Take it up with him.

Being inspired by the Spirit meant that he would and did write inerrant scriptures, NOT that he would do perfectly all the time living without sinning!

And heaven is where God rules from, so do you really think Sin is going on there?

 

[Winman]

Being inspired by the Spirit meant that he would and did write inerrant scriptures, NOT that he would do perfectly all the time living without sinning!

And heaven is where God rules from, so do you really think Sin is going on there?

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Have any of you guys ever spent any time actually reading the Bible before you open your mouths? Apparently not.

 

[DHK]

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Have any of you guys ever spent any time actually reading the Bible before you open your mouths? Apparently not.

You just keep digging yourself into a deeper pit.
This "war" was during the time of creation, when Satan rebelled against God. He took one third of the angels with him. It happened, IMO, shortly after their creation. Then the rest of the angels "were confirmed in their holiness." There is no ongoing battle or war in heaven. There was a one-time uprising of Satan. It will never happen again. You can read of the consequences in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.
This has already been addressed.

Now to address the error of your other post:

Post #183
Who said it was condoned? Not me.

You use it as a precedent that "there are problems in heaven," or "people make mistakes in heaven," etc. This is heresy. It pictures God as a god out of control, unable to control his own "house." Even Satan will tell you: "I can do a better job of managing that place than He can," and you seem to be listening to him.

All I am saying is that heaven might not be as perfect as you have all figured out in your head. Obviously, a person is still able to make mistakes in heaven.

Look! The inference here is: If God is unable to create a perfect heaven then God is not perfect! Is that what you believe?

If you have a problem with this, then your problem is with the word of God. I am not the one who wrote about John worshiping a fellow believer or angel, John inspired by the Holy Spirit did. Take it up with him.

And quite obviously you did not only write the book, you didn't carefully read or study it either.

First, when John is "in heaven," does he have a glorified body?
The Bible says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (much less enter into heaven). 1Cor.15 describes the different kinds of flesh: terrestrial, celestial, etc. John had earthly or terrestrial flesh, not heavenly or celestial flesh. Clad only in terrestrial flesh he was unable to enter right into the courts of heaven. Paul teaches that in the 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians. Does the Bible contradict itself?

How then, did John "enter" heaven?
It was not John, per se, but only his "spirit" that went to heaven.
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Revelation 1:10 I became in [the] Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet, (Darby)
--If one is "in the Spirit" then what he sees is more akin to a vision. He is not physically there.

Read through the book. What did he see?
He looked upon the throne of God and described it.
Many times does it tell us that if any man should see God he should die. John told us that himself:
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
--John was unable to see the God that he describes in heaven. He could describe him because he "was in the spirit" or it was a vision.
If he was physically there in body, he would have died immediately.
He had terrestial or earthly flesh not celestial or heavenly flesh. The resurrection has not yet taken place. We still wait for the redemption our bodies, and so does John.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
--A door was opened in heaven (the same thing happened with Stephen).
"I will show you things which must be hereafter" (the same thing happened with Daniel).
--Immediately I was in the spirit--indicative of a vision.

Revelation 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

Does this give you a better understanding of the book?
It is what we call "apocalyptic literature." The dragon is representative of Satan. There are many symbols. Interpretation is often difficult.

Your interpretation has led to heresy. It has led to a God who is out of control.

 

[Winman]

Boy, somebody should have told the writer of the book of Job that Satan had been cast out of heaven at creation, because this writer believed Satan still had access to heaven and was still falsely accusing believers.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

No one is exactly certain when Job lived, but it was after the flood which occurred about 1700 years after creation. Satan still had access to heaven and was still falsely accusing the brethren.

Satan couldn't have been cast out before Job, because Revelation 12 tells us there will be no place for Satan ANY MORE in heaven.

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

John reported things which must shortly "come to pass" FUTURE TENSE in Revelation.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[DHK]

Boy, somebody should have told the writer of the book of Job that Satan had been cast out of heaven at creation, because this writer believed Satan still had access to heaven and was still falsely accusing believers.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

No one is exactly certain when Job lived, but it was after the flood which occurred about 1700 years after creation. Satan still had access to heaven and was still falsely accusing the brethren.

Satan couldn't have been cast out before Job, because Revelation 12 tells us there will be no place for Satan ANY MORE in heaven.

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

John reported things which must shortly "come to pass" FUTURE TENSE in Revelation.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

It is doubtful that Satan was "in heaven" as in the courts of heaven, but somehow had access to God. We are not told how.
Think:
Adam and Eve came and presented themselves before the Lord as well.
God talked with Adam.
But that doesn't put Adam in heaven.

He presented himself before the Lord. He was in submission to him. We are not told the exact location or set up. We can't read more into this situation than what we are told. There is no possible way that we have Satan standing right before the throne of God.

 

[Winman]

It is doubtful that Satan was "in heaven" as in the courts of heaven, but somehow had access to God. We are not told how.
Think:
Adam and Eve came and presented themselves before the Lord as well.
God talked with Adam.
But that doesn't put Adam in heaven.

He presented himself before the Lord. He was in submission to him. We are not told the exact location or set up. We can't read more into this situation than what we are told. There is no possible way that we have Satan standing right before the throne of God.

Satan certainly was in heaven, he presented himself before God with all the other angels.

There is MUCH other scripture that shows Satan has not been cast out of heaven yet.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Ezekiel 28 is clearly describing Satan, he was the cherub in the garden of Eden. Note that God says he will cast (future tense) him out of the mountain of God, and he will cast (future tense) him to the ground.

There is much more if you need to see it.

 

[DHK]

Satan certainly was in heaven, he presented himself before God with all the other angels.

There is MUCH other scripture that shows Satan has not been cast out of heaven yet.

Satan has already been cast out by this time.
Adam Clarke wisely comments concerning Job 1:6

“The things delivered to us by these two inspired writers are the same in substance, equally high, and above the reach of human sight and knowledge; but the manner of delivering them is different, each as suited best to his particular purpose. This, then is the prophetical way of representing things, as to the manner of doing them, which, whether done exactly in the same manner, concerns us not to know; but which are really done: and God would have them described as done in this manner, to make the more lively and lasting impression on us. At the same time, it must not be forgotten that representations of this kind are founded in a well-known and established truth, viz., the doctrine of good and bad angels, a point revealed from the beginning, and without a previous knowledge of which, the visions of the prophets could scarcely be intelligible.” See Gen_28:10-15.

Eze 28:13

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Ezekiel 28 is clearly describing Satan, he was the cherub in the garden of Eden. Note that God says he will cast (future tense) him out of the mountain of God, and he will cast (future tense) him to the ground.

There is much more if you need to see it.

This is an elaboration of what Lucifer (afterward called Satan) was like before his rebellion, before he was cast out. He was one of the most beautiful of the angels. He was a master of music, and thus expert at causing dissension in music in the churches today. The entire passage looks back at what did happen.
"I will cast thee to the ground." He spoke that to Lucifer, and that is what he did. It was accomplished because of his rebellion. It is not still future; it is past. There are many things that are written in future tense. The Bible is a history book.
It says that God will make David king over Israel. Is that still future also. No, it came to pass. Satan was also kicked out of heaven according to the Word of the Lord. It is a past event. Isaiah 14 testifies to the same event. He was cast into the Garden of Eden, and there tempted Eve. The angels were created before Adam.

 

[Winman]

I am not going to spend 10 pages arguing with you about when Satan was or will be cast out. You have your view, and I have mine.

The original point was that heaven might not be what we expect. You say there was war in heaven, I say there will be war in heaven. Things are not always perfect there, we are not going to sit on clouds playing harps forever.

I believe heaven will be a wonderful place, much more wonderful than we could ever imagine. But I do not believe we will be robots there. We might make mistakes at times as John did, but perhaps not. I do not understand why the scriptures would tell us the leaves of the tree of life are for the "healing" of the nations unless they were going to be used for just that, healing.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[DHK]

I am not going to spend 10 pages arguing with you about when Satan was or will be cast out. You have your view, and I have mine.

The original point was that heaven might not be what we expect. You say there was war in heaven, I say there will be war in heaven. Things are not always perfect there, we are not going to sit on clouds playing harps forever.

I believe heaven will be a wonderful place, much more wonderful than we could ever imagine. But I do not believe we will be robots there. We might make mistakes at times as John did, but perhaps not. I do not understand why the scriptures would tell us the leaves of the tree of life are for the "healing" of the nations unless they were going to be used for just that, healing.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

I believe that my view of heaven agrees with the majority of Christians, like James Hill who wrote:

There is coming a day,
When no heart aches shall come,
No more clouds in the sky,
No more tears to dim the eye,
All is peace forever more,
On that happy golden shore,
What a day, glorious day that will be.

What a day that will be,
When my Jesus I shall see,
And I look upon His face,
The One who saved me by His grace;
When He takes me by the hand,
And leads me through the Promised Land,
What a day, glorious day that will be.

There’ll be no sorrow there,
No more burdens to bear,
No more sickness, no pain,
No more parting over there;
And forever I will be,
With the One who died for me,
What a day, glorious day that will be.

What a glorious day that will be.

I believe this is the picture that most people have of heaven:

No war, no sin, no sickness, no need of healing (not in a glorified body).
It will be a perfect heaven created by a perfect God.

 

[Winman]

I believe that my view of heaven agrees with the majority of Christians, like James Hill who wrote:

What a glorious day that will be.

I believe this is the picture that most people have of heaven:

No war, no sin, no sickness, no need of healing (not in a glorified body).
It will be a perfect heaven created by a perfect God.

Well, all I know is what the scriptures say, and they say the leaves of the tree of life will be for the "healing" of the nations.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

We are also told about this tree in Ezekiel, there we are told the leaves are for medicine.

Eze 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

You can believe James Hill (whoever he is), I will believe the scriptures.

 

[kyredneck]

Well, all I know is what the scriptures say, and they say the leaves of the tree of life will be for the "healing" of the nations.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations......

Well, all I know is that none of you are paying attention to the instructions, "Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand" (22:10), and if you're not going to do that, then you ought not even think about using it to support your views, because it's going to be wrong, whatever you do with it.

 

[Winman]

Well, all I know is that none of you are paying attention to the instructions, "Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand" (22:10), and if you're not going to do that, then you ought not even think about using it to support your views, because it's going to be wrong, whatever you do with it.

These instructions were to John, not us. And John did not seal up the book, that is why we have the book of Revelation.

 

[kyredneck]

Nah, it's in stark contrast to what was told to Daniel:

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end. Dan 12

But go thy way Winman, because this is all the time I'm going to waste with your perversions.

 

[HankD]

And no, I do not need any more quotes, they don't prove anything, scripture is what matters.

Then we can expect to not hear from you concerning Augustine anymore?

That is why I provided a list to answer to your claim(s) concerning church teachers (Augustine in particular). There are several views of "original sin" both pre and post dating Augustine. If you make a claim here on the BB you should expect an answer (or challenge) to it.

There are well over 20,000 pages of church fathers on line and another list can be provided concerning the various church father views of our unlearned propensity to sin originating in/from our adamic birth should the debate go down the church father path again.

Admittedly, most of my ECF studies have been focused upon the ECF witness to the manuscript copies of the scriptures.

Sometimes, I am willing to go through the weariness of much study when certain claims are made but usually not anymore as it hardly ever makes a difference in any ones view and almost always ends badly with insults and accusations (direct and by innuendo) exchanged by both sides.

Yes, church fathers writings and church history can never outweigh the scripture but they are important to know in a debate when these matters are brought up.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, all I know is what the scriptures say, and they say the leaves of the tree of life will be for the "healing" of the nations.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

We are also told about this tree in Ezekiel, there we are told the leaves are for medicine.

Eze 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

You can believe James Hill (whoever he is), I will believe the scriptures.

..

So will there still be mistakes and sin in Eternity even when none of us have any sin natures remaining, that satan and all eveil has been eternally judged and condemned?

So when Jesus wants us to pray for His will get done here on earth JUST as it now is in heaven, he expects us to ask for a place still riddled with sin and where His will cannot really get done?

 

[webdog]

Well, all I know is what the scriptures say, and they say the leaves of the tree of life will be for the "healing" of the nations.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

We are also told about this tree in Ezekiel, there we are told the leaves are for medicine.

Eze 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

You can believe James Hill (whoever he is), I will believe the scriptures.

I think you are confusing the 1000 year millennial reign on the present earth with the new heaven and new earth.

 

[webdog]

Simple phrases.

Death.

Redeem.

Guilt.

If one doesn't twist the simple definitions of these words they cannot hold to Augustinianism.