VERY Limited Atonement: Christ died for Paul

[Dr. Walter]

Dr. Walter:

You and I have gone around this before. The doctrine of justification through faith alone, in Christ alone, by grace alone creates a disagreement mostly of semantics. Basically, if something is "alone" then nothing else - nothing else is required. Yet, you have three things stated as needed for justification and in the same sentence you seperate each into the catagory of "alone" which is a logical absurdity. Now, if you state it a little differently then I'm there with you:

Justification comes through faith in Christ alone by grace.

See, that wasn't hard now was it?

WM

Note where you place the term "alone" in your formula! That is not the Biblical doctrine of justification before God. No one disputes that it is "Christ alone" that is savior, that is the object of faith, that is the provision of grace. However, the dispute revolves around the words "faith" and "grace" and "in Christ."

There is nothing irrational about saying justification is "IN Christ alone."
There is nothing irrational about saying justification is "THROUGH faith alone"
There is nothing irrational about saying justification is "BY grace alone."

Therefore there is nothing irrational about saying justification before God is "BY grace alone THROUGH faith alone IN Christ alone" as the prepositions are definitive of the ONLY basis, and the ONLY conduit and the ONLY object in forumlating the Biblical doctrine of justification before God. This forumula is not a repetition of synonyms but the distinction of aspects necessary to formulate the Biblical doctrine correctly.

There is ONLY one basis - grace
There is ONLY one medium - faith
There is ONLY one object - Christ


However, if you really want to put your theory to test then take my challenge! The thread has been established for that challenge. If you think you are right and my view is irrational and illogical then step into the challenge and let us see who is unbiblical as human rationality is not the test of truth as "my thoughts are not your thoughts" is the declaration of God concerning that subject.

There is no irrationality about saying that justification is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone because each phrase is Biblically correct and together provides the correct Biblical formula for the doctrine of justification before God.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Note where you place the term "alone" in your formula! That is not the Biblical doctrine of justification before God. No one disputes that it is "Christ alone" that is savior, that is the object of faith, that is the provision of grace. However, the dispute revolves around the words "faith" and "grace" and "in Christ."

There is nothing irrational about saying justification is "IN Christ alone."
There is nothing irrational about saying justification is "THROUGH faith alone"
There is nothing irrational about saying justification is "BY grace alone."

There is nothing wrong with each of those sentences, except for the fact that they contradict each other. The problem comes from linking all three together and then forcing mutual excluvisity upon each with the use of the word "alone".

For goodness sake...if you don't believe me, then ask Merriam Webster.

definition of ALONE
1: separated from others : isolated
2: exclusive of anyone or anything else : only <she alone knows why>
3a : considered without reference to any other b : incomparable, unique <alone among their contemporaries in this respect>

If it's by faith alone, then it cannot be grace alone
If it's by grace alone, then it cannot be by faith alone.

Justification is, however, by Christ alone. Everything comes from him and through him. There's your alone!

If you don't understand what the word "alone" means, then I can see how your doctrine wouldn't be a problem for you. However, words have meaning. It's kind of like saying that scripture interprets scripture. On it's face that is an ubsurdity. Scripture cannot interpret itself. A correct statement would be that one can interpret scripture by using scripture.

WM

 

[quantumfaith]

Dr. Walter:

You and I have gone around this before. The doctrine of justification through faith alone, in Christ alone, by grace alone creates a disagreement mostly of semantics. Basically, if something is "alone" then nothing else - nothing else is required. Yet, you have three things stated as needed for justification and in the same sentence you seperate each into the catagory of "alone" which is a logical absurdity. Now, if you state it a little differently then I'm there with you:

Justification comes through faith in Christ alone by grace.

See, that wasn't hard now was it?

WM

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Dr. Walter]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Yes, and you dropped out of the discussion after Andre entered into that discussion and then he dropped out because he could not deal with the evidence I placed before him. Go back and look at it and you will see it Andre did not drop out because of any insults but he dropped out when I got down to the nitty gritty of verses 27-31 in Romans 4.

I have reopened the discussion because WM claimed that I could not sustain my position by the use of scripture alone. So here is your chance. Prove it! Note the thread uses only scripture and nothing but scripture.

 

[Dr. Walter]

They are not synonymous sentences. If they were you would be correct but they are not. They deal with three entirely different aspects of the doctrine of justification before God.

The basis or cause of Justification (by grace alone) is not the medium through which justification is received (through faith alone") and the medium through which grace is received is not the object of faith (in Christ alone).

They do not contradict each other because each one stands "alone" in regard to any other basis, any other medium or any other object for justification before God. It is that simple.

They are not competing with each other but they are DIFFERENT aspects necessary to be justified before God and all three stand "ALONE." By grace alone stands alone in contrast to any other basis such as "works." Through faith alone stands alone in contrast to any other medium such as sacraments. In Christ stands alone in contrast to any other object of faith such as the church and/or its ordinances. It is just that simple.

There is nothing wrong with each of those sentences, except for the fact that they contradict each other. The problem comes from linking all three together and then forcing mutual excluvisity upon each with the use of the word "alone".

For goodness sake...if you don't believe me, then ask Merriam Webster.

definition of ALONE
1: separated from others : isolated
2: exclusive of anyone or anything else : only <she alone knows why>
3a : considered without reference to any other b : incomparable, unique <alone among their contemporaries in this respect>

If it's by faith alone, then it cannot be grace alone
If it's by grace alone, then it cannot be by faith alone.

Justification is, however, by Christ alone. Everything comes from him and through him. There's your alone!

If you don't understand what the word "alone" means, then I can see how your doctrine wouldn't be a problem for you. However, words have meaning. It's kind of like saying that scripture interprets scripture. On it's face that is an ubsurdity. Scripture cannot interpret itself. A correct statement would be that one can interpret scripture by using scripture.

WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

However, if I can find the time to waste on such a fruitless endeavor, I might engage you - as long as we use ALL of scripture.

WM

Look who it is that is using human logic, philosphoical rational instead of scripture!! I meet your challenge above and open a thread strictly on the basis of scripture alone and it is you that continues down the road of human logic, philosophy and secular history - not I.

 

[WestminsterMan]

They are not synonymous sentences. If they were you would be correct but they are not. They deal with three entirely different aspects of the doctrine of justification before God.

The basis or cause of Justification (by grace alone) is not the medium through which justification is received (through faith alone") and the medium through which grace is received is not the object of faith (in Christ alone).

They do not contradict each other because each one stands "alone" in regard to any other basis, any other medium or any other object for justification before God. It is that simple.

Simple? Perhaps. However, faith and grace come directly from Christ alone. So the seminal meaning of the doctrine is still Christ alone without anything else. Attempting to seperate faith and grace out as discrete properties (as if we can actually understand the mind of God well enough to do this anyway) is a needless complication and only serves to minimize Christ's role in Justification. He is our salvation - He and He alone - everything flows from Him and through Him whether its grace, faith, or whatever. Personally, I think the Reformers went off the deep end with the solas but hey - that's just me.

WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

Simple? Perhaps. However, faith and grace come directly from Christ alone. So the seminal meaning of the doctrine is still Christ alone without anything else. Attempting to seperate faith and grace out as discrete properties (as if we can actually understand the mind of God well enough to do this anyway) is a needless complication and only serves to minimize Christ's role in Justification. He is our salvation - He and He alone - everything flows from Him and through Him whether its grace, faith, or whatever. Personally, I think the Reformers went off the deep end with the solas but hey - that's just me.

WM

Please go back and finish reading my post as I updated it with some additional explanation.

 

[Dr. Walter]

They are not competing with each other but they are DIFFERENT aspects necessary to be justified before God and all three stand "ALONE." By grace alone stands alone in contrast to any other basis such as "works." Through faith alone stands alone in contrast to any other medium such as sacraments. In Christ stands alone in contrast to any other object of faith such as the church and/or its ordinances. It is just that simple.

Here is where Catholicism and all who follow her in their understanding and explanation of justification before God are exposed and condemned by God's Word.

1. By grace ALONE exposes and condemns works performed through anyone but Christ as part of that basis

2. Through faith ALONE exposes and condemns all other mediums for justification such as the church or its ordinances.

3. In Christ alone exposes and condemns all other objects of faith for justification - works, sacraments, priests, etc.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The words "faith", "grace" "Christ" are not synonyms for justification and if only one was necessary to describe conclusively the doctrine of justification then there would be no need for the other two.

Grace defines the Biblical basis for justification and the ONLY Biblical basis for justification.

Faith defines the instrumental means through which justification is received and the only instrumental means.

Christ defines the provisional object of faith and the only provisional object for faith because it is His Person and works alone that make provision for justification.

Roman Catholicism denies that grace alone is the basis for justification but teaches that it is grace/faithfulness to works basis for justification.

Roman Catholicism denies that it is faith alone that is the medium through which justification is obtained but teaches that it is a faith/sacramental medium/faithfulness through which justification is received.

Roman Catholocisim denies that it is Christ alone, meaning His substitutionary Person and work that is the sole provisional object of justifying faith but it is a Christ/church/sacramental provisional object of faith that is necessary to recieve justification.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Here is where Catholicism and all who follow her in their understanding and explanation of justification before God are exposed and condemned by God's Word.

1. By grace ALONE exposes and condemns works performed through anyone but Christ as part of that basis

The condemnation of works are those under the Mosaic Law - not all works...
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).

As you know there are plenty of references in scripture about the importance of good works.

2. Through faith ALONE exposes and condemns all other mediums for justification such as the church or its ordinances.

Well, doc... I have to take exception with you on this. You won't find "faith alone" together in scripture except in admonition against it.
"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

3. In Christ alone exposes and condemns all other objects of faith for justification - works, sacraments, priests, etc.

I don't see that at all - especially in light of the fact that good works are called for directly in scripture.

WM

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Boy, this thread has certainly got off on a tangent--we've come along way from discussing the matter of 'Sola Paul' and the five points of the New Paulinian Reformation ("Ecclesia Reformata, Semper Reformanda!"):

T--Total badness. This is essentially the same as "total depravity" (but I didn't want to run into any problems with potential copyright infringement), so I've tweaked the name a little. This is also where Calvinists, Arminians, and Paulinianists can find common ground--I like to build bridges, you see.

U--Uno. This is Spanish for 'ONE' (I though about using 'Unam' or 'Unus' to sound more fancy, but Latin is a dead language). That is, there is ONE who wins the race (1 Cor 9:24-27). There is ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism...and ONE for whom Christ died--Paul (Gal 2:20)

B--Baaahhh. This is the sound that SHEEP make. Christ died for His sheep. However, the word 'sheep' can be singular, or plural, so the meaning is ambiguous. We must check context and compare scripture to scripture. Christ taught that it is for ONE SHEEP that the other 99 are left behind. So logically proceeding from the previous point, 'Uno', we know it's Paul who is the sheep (singular) for whom Christ died.

A--All Things. Paul said he became "ALL THINGS to all men" (1 Cor 9:22). The Greek word "world" is "cosmos". One good definition of "cosmos" is that it is "all things". Therefore, Paul is not only the sheep, but he's also the WORLD that God loves.

D--Destruction. (At first I thought about using 'Damnata' for this final point, but decided no one reads Latin, and this word might not make it past the Baptist board censors...er..moderators). As in, 'vessels of wrath prepared for DESTRUCTION' (Romans 9:22). In other words, the rest of us. This final point flows logically from the first four.

Forget Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, and Arminius. Let's return to the source! ("Ad Fontes!")

(BTW--Dr Walter, I am curious as to what kind of 'doctor' you are that allows you the time to actively participate in seven different discussions? Are you retired? On extended vacation? Just wondering.)

 

[Dr. Walter]

The condemnation of works are those under the Mosaic Law - not all works...

That argument is the very first straw man I deal with in my thread on Romans 3:22-5:1 debate. It is a FALSE argument and I prove it false by the context of Romans 3 - go read it and respond if you are able to.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).

As you know there are plenty of references in scripture about the importance of good works.

Nobody denies this. However, what is denied is that "good works" performed by any human being other than Christ can justify. The error of Rome is reversing cause and effects. Note the cause and effect relationship between God's workmanship which is an act of being CREATED in Christ Jesus versus "good works." It is not "good works UNTO being created in Christ Jesus."

Well, doc... I have to take exception with you on this. You won't find "faith alone" together in scripture except in admonition against it.
"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

You are talking about the explicit terms and in a very debatable context! However, the doctrine is spelled out clearly in Romans 3:19-5:1 over and over again in great detail. It is especially spelled out in Romans 3:27-28 and Romans 4:1-6.

Your argument that this refers to works of JEWISH law has been thoroughly disproven in my first two posts in the thread "Romans 3:22-51 Debate." Go overturn it if you can. I only use scripture and context - no philosophy just scripture.

I don't see that all - especially in light of the fact that good works are called for directly in scripture.

WM

Nobody disputes they are called for. The dispute is for what reason are they called for and what do they obtain. Again, all of this will be handled on a thread that deals with this subject.

THIS THREAD DOES NOT DEAL WITH THIS SUBJECT - LET'S GO TO THE THREAD THAT THIS IS THE SUBJECT RATHER THAN DERAILING THIS THREAD.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Boy, this thread has certainly got off on a tangent--we've come along way from discussing the matter of 'Sola Paul' and the five points of the New Paulinian Reformation ("Ecclesia Reformata, Semper Reformanda!"):

T--Total badness. This is essentially the same as "total depravity" (but I didn't want to run into any problems with potential copyright infringement), so I've tweaked the name a little. This is also where Calvinists, Arminians, and Paulinianists can find common ground--I like to build bridges, you see.

U--Uno. This is Spanish for 'ONE' (I though about using 'Unam' or 'Unus' to sound more fancy, but Latin is a dead language). That is, there is ONE who wins the race (1 Cor 9:24-27). There is ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism...and ONE for whom Christ died--Paul (Gal 2:20)

B--Baaahhh. This is the sound that SHEEP make. Christ died for His sheep. However, the word 'sheep' can be singular, or plural, so the meaning is ambiguous. We must check context and compare scripture to scripture. Christ taught that it is for ONE SHEEP that the other 99 are left behind. So logically proceeding from the previous point, 'Uno', we know it's Paul who is the sheep (singular) for whom Christ died.

A--All Things. Paul said he became "ALL THINGS to all men" (1 Cor 9:22). The Greek word "world" is "cosmos". One good definition of "cosmos" is that it is "all things". Therefore, Paul is not only the sheep, but he's also the WORLD that God loves.

D--Destruction. (At first I thought about using 'Damnata' for this final point, but decided no one reads Latin, and this word might not make it past the Baptist board censors...er..moderators). As in, 'vessels of wrath prepared for DESTRUCTION' (Romans 9:22). In other words, the rest of us. This final point flows logically from the first four.

Forget Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, and Arminius. Let's return to the source! ("Ad Fontes!")

(BTW--Dr Walter, I am curious as to what kind of 'doctor' you are that allows you the time to actively participate in seven different discussions? Are you retired? On extended vacation? Just wondering.)

Bwahahahaha!!! :applause:

 

[Dr. Walter]

(BTW--Dr Walter, I am curious as to what kind of 'doctor' you are that allows you the time to actively participate in seven different discussions? Are you retired? On extended vacation? Just wondering.)

Yes, I am now retired and I stay at home taking care of my wife. Between cooking meals and cleaning the house and going on walks with my wife I find the forum an excellent way to have mental exercise and defend the truth that I love and spent 37 years as a Pastor teaching and preaching. I hope you don't mind.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Yes, I am now retired and I stay at home taking care of my wife. Between cooking meals and cleaning the house and going on walks with my wife I find the forum an excellent way to have mental exercise and defend the truth that I love and spent 37 years as a Pastor teaching and preaching. I hope you don't mind.

I don't mind a bit--I was just curious. I suspected you might be retired. Thanks for the info! :thumbs: