VESSELS OF WRATH

[Van]

he and Van are leading the against Calvinism camp

Here we have yet another false charge hurled against me from ambush (as I was not addressed).

The OP presents the truth. Everyone (all humanity) is made a "sinner" thus a vessel of wrath (also made children of wrath).
However, out of fallen humanity, God chooses (not has already chosen all elect) individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Thus as the OP stated, vessels of wrath become vessels of mercy.

This is a fundamental truth of scripture denied by Calvinism.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Here we have yet another false charge hurled against me from ambush (as I was not addressed).

The OP presents the truth. Everyone (all humanity) is made a "sinner" thus a vessel of wrath (also made children of wrath).
However, out of fallen humanity, God chooses (not has already chosen all elect) individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. Thus as the OP stated, vessels of wrath become vessels of mercy.

This is a fundamental truth of scripture denied by Calvinism.

Those of the Reformed and Calvinists are so blinded by their opposition to hell bound sinners being saved, that their warped theology is more important to them than what the Bible actually teaches, that God very much LOVES the entire human race and desires every single one get saved

 

[kyredneck]

What in the context of 2 Peter 3 leads you to believe 'perish' means going to hell?

In the Scriptures, death always means the cessation of the viability of the physical body. The exception is the lake of fire which is titled the second death.

When in John 3 it says “shall never perish” it is also speaking of the ceasing of physical vitality, for believers do “pass” from this existence into the next. We believers have eternal life and death is but a shaded valley.

Therefore, your question is very valuable. For, imo, some do take the mention of perish and death as the second death, but folks do not perish in the second death, for it is eternal.

Excellent thinking Old Man! 'Perish intent' in 2 Pet 3:9...:

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet 3

...is precisely the 'perish intent' in Lu 13:

1 Now there were some present at that very season who told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And he answered and said unto them, Think ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they have suffered these things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them, think ye that they were offenders above all the men that dwell in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
6 And he spake this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit thereon, and found none.
7 And he said unto the vinedresser, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why doth it also cumber the ground?
8 And he answering saith unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 and if it bear fruit thenceforth, well; but if not, thou shalt cut it down. Lu 13

It's clear that the 'perish intent' is 'likewise'/'in like manner' dying by the Roman sword*, not burning in hell, and the parable immediately connected leaves no doubt He's speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem before that generation passed away. No doubt that many of the 'unrepentant' and 'ungodly' that perished in this event did experience the 'second death', but any 'elect' that perished in the event 'went to heaven spanked'.

* 23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3

 

[SavedByGrace]

Excellent thinking Old Man! 'Perish intent' in 2 Pet 3:9...:

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet 3

...is precisely the 'perish intent' in Lu 13:

1 Now there were some present at that very season who told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And he answered and said unto them, Think ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they have suffered these things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them, think ye that they were offenders above all the men that dwell in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
6 And he spake this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit thereon, and found none.
7 And he said unto the vinedresser, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why doth it also cumber the ground?
8 And he answering saith unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 and if it bear fruit thenceforth, well; but if not, thou shalt cut it down. Lu 13

It's clear that the 'perish intent' is 'likewise'/'in like manner' dying by the Roman sword*, not burning in hell, and the parable immediately connected leaves no doubt He's speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem before that generation passed away. No doubt that many of the 'unrepentant' and 'ungodly' that perished in this event did experience the 'second death', but any 'elect' that perished in the event 'went to heaven spanked'.

* 23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3

Yet more codswallop

 

[JesusFan]

Yet more codswallop

More "correct theology?"

 

[JesusFan]

Those of the Reformed and Calvinists are so blinded by their opposition to hell bound sinners being saved, that their warped theology is more important to them than what the Bible actually teaches, that God very much LOVES the entire human race and desires every single one get saved

The passage concerning the OP has NOTHING to do with those getting eventually ever saved Van!

 

[Silverhair]

? For how long does the Potter have power over the clay, the vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath?

When God, the potter, told the vessels of wrath, the house of Israel, you are not my people and or you are not beloved, where was he sending them?

Can GOD raise them from the dead, "literally," and say to them, I sent my Son, you are now my beloved, vessels of mercy?


In reality most on here actually believe, we save ourselves, we birth ourselves of the Spirit, we choose of ourselves to believe, we repent of ourselves and save ourselves.

IMHO

"In reality most on here actually believe, we save ourselves, we birth ourselves of the Spirit, we choose of ourselves to believe, we repent of ourselves and save ourselves."

That kind of nonsense can only come from a committed calvinist. Or should I say one that should be, you are just delusional. You are letting your hatred of all things not calvinist cloud your mind.

 

[kyredneck]

Yet more codswallop

Yet same ol' hell on the brain.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yet same ol' hell on the brain.

The more that I read on BB from you, shows that you are a Calvinist pretending not to be one

 

[percho]

Vessels of Wrath
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

--- I do wonder what multiple definition of all that all has?

Vessels of Wrath and Vessels of Mercy??

And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit (Singular) of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body; Romans 8:23 YLT

What does that mean? Having the first-fruit of the Spirit. Why not, fruit of the Spirit? Why does the word, first, precede fruit?

Romans 8:11 YLT and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.

Is, the redemption of our body R8/23 and shall quicken also your dying bodies R8/11 the same thing taking placing at the same moment?

we -- we love him, because He -- He first loved us; 1 John 4:19 YLT
And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose; because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; Rom 8:28,29 YLT Is first-born there R8/29 the same first-born here, Col 1:18 YLT And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things -- himself -- first,

Is first-born out of the dead C1/18 the same as the following 1 Cor 15:20 YLT And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruit of those sleeping he became,? ---- Why does, first, precede fruit? Will there be more like fruit?
1 Cor 15:22, 23 YLT for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,

In his proper order???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

James 1:18 YLT having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures.

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
(not by works that are in righteousness that we did but according to His kindness, [Mercy]) He did save us, through a bathing of regeneration, and a renewing of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5
called according to purpose; because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint

What purpose? ------------ And Peter having opened his mouth, said, 'Of a truth, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons, the word that he sent to the sons of Israel, proclaiming good news -- peace through Jesus Christ (this one is Lord of all,) ye -- ye have known; -- the word that came throughout all Judea, having begun from Galilee, after the baptism that John preached; Acts 10:34,36,37
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom [NU-Text omits of the kingdom.] of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Will there be other fruit? When? How?



How merciful is your God?

 

[percho]

Am I, Calvinist or Chronological Election? I will go with the latter.

 

[agedman]

The more that I read on BB from you, shows that you are a Calvinist pretending not to be one

Not all Calvinist fit in a box labeled Calvinism just as all rain drops fall as rain drops or even fall.

 

[percho]

Does post 70 have anything to do with? 1 John 3:8 he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;

that he may break up the works of the devil; From the beginning Gen 1:2 How was God going to go about, breaking up the works of the devil?

Before the foundation of the world [the Kosmos, the system, the configuration]

 

[timdabap]

All men, elect or not, are born dead in trespasses and sin (Eph. 2:1), are under the sentence of sin (Romans 6:23) and slaves to their total depravity, EVEN AFTER BEING BORN FROM ABOVE (Romans 7:14-21).
Therefore, ALL OF Y'ALL (us all) are the originally vessels of wrath.
What changed is that in eternity God CHOSE those from coming vessels of wrath whom He will turn into vessels of mercy, writing their names in HIs book of Life and regenerating them, quickening them, washing away their sins with His own precious blood as a testimony to the power of His grace and to His workmanship(Ephesians 1:1-10 KJV).
We, who are eternally saved, are the vessels of mercy, having been plucked out of damnation by the sovereign will of the most Sovereign King of all the universes, plucked out of the garbage pit from among those ready to burn as the dumps of gehenna burn forever.
Therefore, no man, including the elect, has the right and the wherewithal to ask "why hast thou made me like this" ?
The elect has no right in himself to ask why God chose him over the other, instead his duty and obligation is to bow the knee in reverential awe and gratitude, for without His mercy and His standing in the place of the sinner in the judgment at the cross, he will remain as the one who was passed over, condemned, who shall stand under righteous judgement.

 

[SavedByGrace]

What changed is that in eternity God CHOSE those from coming vessels of wrath whom He will turn into vessels of mercy, writing their names in HIs book of Life and regenerating them, quickening them, washing away their sins with His own precious blood as a testimony to the power of His grace and to His workmanship

this theory is destroyed by John 3:16-18!

 

[agedman]

this theory is destroyed by John 3:16-18!

how?

 

[SavedByGrace]

how?

Because God has not CHOSEN anyone to salvation that has not first REPENTED and BELIEVED. The fact that God LOVES the entire human race, with a SAVING LOVE, is clear testimony to the error of the teaching of the Reformed, of "predestined to life", the way they do so.

 

[timdabap]

Because God has not CHOSEN anyone to salvation that has not first REPENTED and BELIEVED. The fact that God LOVES the entire human race, with a SAVING LOVE, is clear testimony to the error of the teaching of the Reformed, of "predestined to life", the way they do so.

So, in other words, you, Mr. SavedByGrace, were necessarily a part and parcel of your eternal salvation through your repenting and believing, without which the action of God in creating a sinless body with veins where a sinless blood flows and residing in it, and having that body broken and that precious blood spilled out, was entirely unnecessary and without merit without you first repenting and believing ? Your actions of repenting and believing were the final catalyst that synergized the power of God ? Your only answer would be a yes, because to answer no is ridiculous.

 

[agedman]

Because God has not CHOSEN anyone to salvation that has not first REPENTED and BELIEVED. The fact that God LOVES the entire human race, with a SAVING LOVE, is clear testimony to the error of the teaching of the Reformed, of "predestined to life", the way they do so.

What were the words of Christ concerning who could come to Him?

Who gives the ones saved to Christ according to Him?

I don’t see how John 3 over rides other statements of the Christ.

 

[SavedByGrace]

So, in other words, you, Mr. SavedByGrace, were necessarily a part and parcel of your eternal salvation through your repenting and believing, without which the action of God in creating a sinless body with veins where a sinless blood flows and residing in it, and having that body broken and that precious blood spilled out, was entirely unnecessary and without merit without you first repenting and believing ? Your actions of repenting and believing were the final catalyst that synergized the power of God ? Your only answer would be a yes, because to answer no is ridiculous.

what a really dumb reply!