View on Antidpressants

[Gina B]

So my question to you would be... do antidepressants cure a 'chemical imbalance', or do they cure 'unhappiness'?

I don't know, but I do know they can control the symptoms of depression. Just as when I had pain medication for a kidney stone. There was no cure, but it controlled the symptoms until it passed.
Did you read the link I gave you that talks about seratonin and new research?

Your use of the word "unhappy" is odd, and speaks of a seeming lack of understanding for mental illness and depression. How do you define unhappy? What about a person perfectly satisfied with everything who has one hour bursts of extreme depression...total mood change, doesn't want it, doesn't understand why? You don't have to be an unhappy person to suffer from depression or other mental illnesses.

Now, where's your banana/depression information?

James, I believe your "commercial" could technically work. Check out the Bible and what it says about giving alcohol to the grieved. However, it doesn't appear to be relating to mental illness in that context. It seems a short-term aid for helping someone going through a trauma, a short bout of illness, or nearing death.

SFIC, of course we take our concerns to God first. That goes for everything, from a broken leg to a heart attack to any other worries. I've personally never seen him come down and fix any of those. Have you? It seems as if we're expected to use our resources here on earth to fix physical problems, and our resources from heaven to fix spiritual problems, until the time comes when we are restored to our Father. That is part of what we are told will happen...no more pain, sorrow, sickness. Until then, we will have it and have to find ways to deal with it. He never said we wouldn't.

 

[Gina B]

And I know some will say, 'We have brain surgeons who know quite a lot about the brain.' Yes, we do. And even though they know a lot about the brain, they do not know everything.

We also have heart surgeons who know a lot about the heart and still don't know everything.
It doesn't mean that I dismissed them from caring for my daughter. It means I sat there and read and learned too and tried to come up with solutions along with them.
We're ever learning. Even our pastors...their spiritual guidance cannot be ignored because they don't know everything about the Bible.
Your logic...it isn't working for me. It doesn't make sense, it doesn't connect to real life. Do you have another approach you could use that might make more sense? I'm trying to understand you, but nothing you're saying seems logical beyond first glance.

 

[James_Newman]

I don't know, but I do know they can control the symptoms of depression. Just as when I had pain medication for a kidney stone. There was no cure, but it controlled the symptoms until it passed.
Did you read the link I gave you that talks about seratonin and new research?

Your use of the word "unhappy" is odd, and speaks of a seeming lack of understanding for mental illness and depression. How do you define unhappy? What about a person perfectly satisfied with everything who has one hour bursts of extreme depression...total mood change, doesn't want it, doesn't understand why? You don't have to be an unhappy person to suffer from depression or other mental illnesses.

My use of the word unhappy came from your asking for a link between bananas and happiness.

Where is some information about the link between bananas and happiness?

I think the general consensus on this forum is 'I don't care what chemicals are in my brain as long as I am happy.'

Now, where's your banana/depression information?

I did some more looking and I may have been mistaken about bananas. The stuff I read all seems to come from one source that is unverifiable. Supposedly the bananas contain tryptophan which is the precursor for serotonin, but that may not be true. I can't find a chemical analysis of a banana. But other sources do indicate that the banana would still be effective in clearing the pathways for tryptophan to enter the brain. Regardless, my point is only that there are natural ways to effect an increase of serotonin. Your admission that serotonin is only part of the problem should raise the question, how big a part is it? If natural means to increase the serotonin are ineffective, why is chemical means supposed to work better? Is it not perhaps some other effect of the drugs that may be producing the effect that the user desires?

James, I believe your "commercial" could technically work. Check out the Bible and what it says about giving alcohol to the grieved. However, it doesn't appear to be relating to mental illness in that context. It seems a short-term aid for helping someone going through a trauma, a short bout of illness, or nearing death.

Then what about this one:

COCAINE:
A sniff a day keeps chemical imbalance away!

or howbout

MARIJUANA:
Doctors recommend it for what ails you.

As long as we can characterize what is fundamentaly a mood problem as a disease, then concievably anything that makes your mood more acceptable can be called medicine. Where in the bible does it say it is wrong to use cocaine?

 

[lgpruitt]

I'm just telling you how you can increase serotonin, these methods are known to work. Doesn't low serotonin cause depression?

Truly you are correct. These will increase serotonin. But, if you have SAD...during the winter months it is hard to "power up" as I say in jest. I am a person that suffers from SAD(seasonal affective disorder). The winters are much harder for me. In the summer I'm fine....I can power up all I want.
raise:

 

[lgpruitt]

You summed up what I've said all along. :type: :thumbs:

Sometimes low serotonin is a cause of depresion, sometimes it is that the serotonin receptors in the brain simply don't do their job, some times too much serotonin is the problem. There are also many other enzymes in the brain that can cause depression and other mental illnesses. There have also been studies that show fundemental differences in the pyhsical makeup of Schizophrenic's brains compared to a "normal" brain. These are all physical ailments and should be treated as such.

Are anti-depressants prescribed too often? Sometimes they are, usually due to family doctor being unfamilliar with the proper treatment of mental illnesses, and what really constitutes the need for anti-depressants, mood stabilzares, anti-psycotics, etc. Your family doctor is a great place to start, but if my doctor wanted me to do anything long term I would see a psyciatrist. We go see specialists all the time we should not be afriad of seeing a psyciatrist.

If you have ever seen someone you love SUFFER from a mental illness then you have truly wittnessed suffering here on earth. There is a huge difference between a mental health consumer on the proper medications and that same person without or with the wrong medication. On the proper medication and with counseling you might never know they are ill. Without the proper medication and counseling then they SUFFER beyond the understanding of anyone who is not or has not gone throught it themselves.

Bill

 

[Soulman]

I would love to say an attitude fix would solve all the problems but the truth is Depression and Anxiety is sometimes caused by a Chemical Imbalance in the brain and the right medication is a life saver. Keep talking with your Doctor and let him/her know how you are feeling so it can monitored. If one doesn't work then there are other medications.

God gave man knowledge and it is up to us, with guidance, to use it right.

Use the medications correctly and use your pastor, friends and if necessary a couselor to help you through this time.

Diet and Exercise are they key, both work in combination, someday you may not need the medications. For now use both if it helps. Again keep talking with your Doctor.

No shame in becoming healthy.

You are in my prayers raying:

Very well said! My sister is battling chemical imbalances. Very depressed and even suicidal. No real reason though. She has a good life and job. Belongs to a good church.

The problem she is having now is finding a medication that doesn't knock her through a loop. She gets on an anti depressant and sleeps all the time. She can't even work. When she does, she goes to bed right after eating an early supper and sleeps 12-14 hours and gets up again only to take meds and be in a daze all day.

Mabey excercise is the key. Please pray for my sister??raying:

Soulman

 

[Trotter]

As long as we can characterize what is fundamentaly a mood problem as a disease, then concievably anything that makes your mood more acceptable can be called medicine.

"...fundamentally a MOOD problem..."??? Well, you just summed up your position, as well as standingfirm's. Neither of you think that depression is a real occurance, much less an actual ailment.

The prescription of "Buck up, pull yourself up by the bootstraps and get over it" just doesn't work.

Thank God neither of you are doctors...

 

[Gina B]

James, you weren't wrong about bananas having tryptophan, simply about assuming that bananas cure depression.

Zello et al (1995) suggest a requirement of 3.5 mg/kg/day tryptophan for adults, based on nitrogen-balance studies, but they maintain that such estimates are too low.

http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/syllabus/module2.htm

How many bananas would you have to eat to get that? The average banana, according to the USDA, contains .011 g's of tryp.

Take into account a person whose body is not correctly using the tryptophan taken in, and requires more. It would be insane to stuff them with various doses of bananas in an attempt to find out how much is needed to gain the level of tryp the body needs to function correctly. Is eating 20 bananas a day really better than a pill? And why is it wrong to get tryp from a banana and not a pill?

BTW, about marijuana. I agree. It should be used medicinally. It helps with pain and depression.

And for cocaine...it's already used in some forms medicinally. However, there is no known medical benefit for the regular use of cocaine that is not outweighted by its side effects and extreme addiction potential. There is nothing in the bible that says using cocaine is wrong. Go ahead and use it if it is needed, for the purposes intended. However, there is a clear message about abusing your body, and cocaine addiction does that. Its use is rarely medical, it is done as a recreation. Tell me the last documented time a drug program admitted someone who just couldn't come off of tricyclics.

I'm quite sure that the command to care for your physical body would include treating a medical problem it was suffering from. Clinical depression, manic depression, schizophrenia, OCD, these aren't cases of being in a cruddy mood and not being right with God. Mood?

Pretty please do some research on this before you speak. Go to a mental institution and make some observations, and tell me if you think everyone in there is just in a rotten mood. If that's the case, why aren't people in there preaching to the mentally ill, getting them right with God? If this is the case, mental institutions should be goldmines for Christians who believe mental illness is all just a mood thing, a lack of God thing.

Live what you believe. Get out there to those institutions.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Truly you are correct. These will increase serotonin. But, if you have SAD...during the winter months it is hard to "power up" as I say in jest. I am a person that suffers from SAD(seasonal affective disorder). The winters are much harder for me. In the summer I'm fine....I can power up all I want.
raise:

I understand there is a new form of Wellbutrin (the substance abuse
aid) approved for use against SAD. I know Wellbrutin helped me
quit smoking after 40 years. And even if I have to take Wellbrutin
the rest of my life, it is way easier on my body than tobacco smoke.

BTW, 19th of June was my THIRD YEAR off ciggies.

\o/ PRAISE THE LORD \o/

 

[PJ]

I work with folk who cannot function without medication for depression, anxiety and bipolar disorders. These folk couldn't get up in the morning, drive their car to work, or have more than a one sentence conversation without their meds. Some hear voices in their head, and some are tortured within beyond belief. I don't have time to go back and read 11 pages worth of responses, but the hurt is real ... VERY real. I've seen these great folk on the meds, and I've seen them off the meds. Their quality of life is SO much better on their meds! I can't speak from experience on using the meds; just my 2 cents on the topic ...

(Praise the Lord indeed, Ed! raise

 

[Phillip]

SFIC,
I believe the FDA, (and if not the equivalent board in Canada), has declared that the caffeine in coffee is a drug. One might say that it is a mind-altering drug. It is (in many cases) no different than an anti-depressant. You get up in the morning and you feel groggy (read depressed). What do you do about it? You make a cup of coffee or two. What is the effect? It is a stimulant. It causes you to be more alert. It is a drug that stimulates the brain (mind) to be more alert more awake, more active, in times when it is prone to be sleepy. Ask truck drivers who tend to consume more quanitiies than normal. It helps them on long hauls to keep them from falling asleep at the wheel. It is a stimulant.
Unfortunately some people get addicted to caffeine. Create a poll on the board and see. "Are you or have you ever been addicted to caffeine," and see how many positive answers you get just among our own members. It is an unregulated mindd-altering drug.
Knowing that informatioin, let me ask you the same question you keep asking of others:
Do you trust in coffee or do you trust in God (to keep you alert and awake)?
DHK

All chemicals taken into the body for purposes of physiological changes can be considered drugs.

Caffeine has been determined by the FDA to be a perfectly harmless stimulant when used in moderation.

The United States Army (through the FDA) has approved caffeine as a safe stimulant for soldiers who are fatigued or in a situation where alertness is a critical factor. Caffeine stimulates brain activity, alertness and thought process with almost no side-effects. The only caution is to be careful with people prone to high-blood pressure. The Army now provides chewing gum with 50 mg doses of caffeine to those soldiers who wish to use it on a optional basis.

Studies show that under certain situations of long-hours of fighting, the gum may help the soldier stay alert, and possibly stay alive with few side effects.

It is also recommended as a replacement to soldiers who will smoke a cigarette in an attempt to stay alert.

 

[webdog]

So, if the brain hardware is broke, wouldn't it be best to take it to the manufacturer, rather than man who did not create it, nor can know all about it? After all, you would not want to take your car to a mechanic who did not know all about your car, now would you?

And I know some will say, 'We have brain surgeons who know quite a lot about the brain.' Yes, we do. And even though they know a lot about the brain, they do not know everything.

This sounds like Scientology:tear:

 

[webdog]

MARIJUANA:
Doctors recommend it for what ails you.

This is not too far off. If a doctor prescribes it, I don't believe it's a sin to use it. If you disagree, I would throw out any and all meds you own, including NSAIDS.

 

[James_Newman]

So in essence, when the doctor recommends cocaine for your children to 'pay attention' in school, your just gonna be hunky dory with it. I'll say it again. I am not anti medicine. But slapping an Rx on any old compound that falls out of a laboratory is pretty stupid. If people just blindly swallow any pill that the doctor hands them, they deserve every side effect they get.

Colossians 2:8
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I understand there is a new form of Wellbutrin (the substance abuse
aid) approved for use against SAD. I know Wellbrutin helped me
quit smoking after 40 years. And even if I have to take Wellbrutin
the rest of my life, it is way easier on my body than tobacco smoke.

BTW, 19th of June was my THIRD YEAR off ciggies.

\o/ PRAISE THE LORD \o/

Isn't that going from one addiction to another?

BTW, Jesus Christ helped me get off of two packs a day after 23 years of smoking.

 

[Trotter]

If people just blindly swallow any pill that the doctor hands them, they deserve every side effect they get.

Yeah! If they are able to function normally again, to interact with the world and their families... why, that's what they get for daring to listen to some doctor who writes out prescriptions for what he thinks somebody needs!

Colossians 2:8
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Nice out-of-context quote there. Too bad it never spoke on anything remotely akin to the subject at hand...

 

[James_Newman]

8 Beware lest any man spoil (To plunder; to strip by violence; to rob; with of; as, to spoil one of his goods or possessions.) you through philosophy (Hypothesis or system on which natural effects are explained.) and vain deceit(you have a chemical imbalance), after the tradition of men(Freud, Frohm, Maslow, are these guys apostles?), after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Of course this has nothing to do with pharmaceutical companies reaping billions of dollars selling pills based on an unproven hypothesis dredged from the well of humanist philosophy. I'm sure Paul would say 'whatever the doctor tells you to do, thats good advice'.

 

[Gina B]

Yes, Maslow was known for humanism, but he didn't invent anti-depressants. :laugh: Either did Freud or the others.

Yes, pharmaceutical companies can be corrupt. And? So can anyone.

What does your verse have to do with the topic? We're talking about using medication to help mental illness, not the corruption that can and does exist in certain corporations.

So far, your logic as to why anti-depressants are evil and bad and mental illness isn't really real is this:

1. Pharmaceutical companies might be corrupt

2. Bananas and stuff can make you feel happy

You've demonstrated a lack of understanding for the information you've given, not answered direct questions, and not provided back-up for any of your assertions, although most of the assertions were simply emotional appeals that implied stuff like "if it's ok to take an anti-depressant, we may as well say it's ok to be crack addicts". Which isn't an argument at all, just a detractor and attempt to make any disagreement look silly, but it's not even doing very good at that job.

Please take this seriously and answer the questions, provide some back-up for your assertions, or at least speak from knowledge of the topic. If you have no knowledge of the topic apart from "I don't like it", can't provide any proof of your reasoning, and refuse to answer questions directed at you, then you really don't have any legitimate input that anyone should take seriously. "I believe this and I have no presentable reason" gives you zero credibility, unless for some reason there are people out there that think your opinion, for whatever reason, is better than the medical research of years, doctors advice, and even Christ himself, who put the advice to drink wine for infirmities into the scriptures. Is there some reason your word over-rules all that?

 

[James_Newman]

Your right Gina.

 

[James_Newman]

Maybe you can explain how I am supposed to understand this.

If antidepressants are so wonderful, why is it that in clinical trials they are shown to be only marginally more effective than placebo if at all?