Virgin born

In just this one page of posts, I've been accused of not being Baptist and that my Father is Satan.

And why? Because I asked a question and gave an opinion as to what possible meanings on ambiguous scripture could mean besides what we all have been trained to accept.

 

OK, I've got it now!

Matthew didn't know what he was talking about when he referred to Mary as a virgin and quoted Isaiah as a reference prophecy!

He didn't know what he was talking about when he mentioned Joseph's reaction.

Luke didn't know what HE was talking about in reference to the virgin birth, even though it is very clear that he interviewed Mary.

Paul didn't know what HE was talking about by his use of the word meaning virgin.

The early church didn't know what IT was talking about by affirming the virgin birth.

But the liberals of today know what THEY are talking about in contrast to all the above!

That's GOT to be it!

But.....
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why?

[ August 18, 2002, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

See, here is where we differ quite a bit.

You see the world full of people with no common sense that will accept anything they are told as long as the other followers don't bring up problems contained in the group/belief etc.

I see the world as people who come to God by the Holy Spirit. They should have common sense enough to know that there are problems with every group/belief.

The reason they need to know this is so when they later discover the errors and problems on their own, they will not drop out of the group/belief because of the lies, and deceit and denial which brings others into the group only to replay the same scenario.

This is the same thing that happens in AMWAY. They call it the "churn". It keeps the church filled at anyone time with people with no real common sense and people who haven't yet figured out that problems exist and everyone around them is either slow or in denial about it.

Now when they come in and see someone like me or other people on this board like me who say, YES! there are some problems here and there but it doesn't stop us from believing and staying in the group because we don't have all the answers and not all things make sense and it is ok.

How many people are no longer Christian or Baptist because they found an error they couldn't "buy" anymore? My rhetoric states its ok not to believe ever point others in my faith believe. I can believe in the Big Bang, Billions of years history, there really wasn't an "Adam and Eve", There was no virgin birth, abortion is not murder, there is no real "fire" in Hell or any eternal damnation for sinners but just death. There are people who have turned from the faith because they too, didn't think there was room in the Baptist faith to accept such things, yet our denomination says there is room to have such beliefs and that the Holy Spirit will guide each one to an understanding of these issues and many more through prayer and deep study of the scripture.

I don't need a virgin born man to be saved; I need Jesus, period. I don't need a man who can do magic with bread and fishes, water and wine; I need Jesus. I don't need a man who can walk on water, I need Jesus. If I had nothing more than 1 page Bible that said God came to earth to redeem man from his sin and one is saved from that sin by accepting this as a gift, I would need nothing else. The rest is seen around me everyday of my life and through others on earth.

I'm glad we have the Bible but that is not what we need as much as we need to listen to our heart where the Holy Spirit dwells.

Listening to people like you Mr. Curtis almost cost me my soul 20 years ago, but I heard some Christians saying similar things to what I'm saying now, and it made me understand that what I thought was wrong with Christianity was actually wrong with individuals and that no man knows what the Bible is saying except through the Holy Spirit. Their Faith in a Book and a God that can't be proven and with their acceptance of all the errors and mistakes, gave me the faith to stand on what the Holy Spirit tells me.

Don't be afraid of people who question the Bible, be afraid of those who don't. They have cost our faith more souls than can be counted.

[ August 18, 2002, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

Let's see... He calls "liberals" the children of the devil and you act as if the "liberals" are the ones who are not nice?

Listen, I believe the virgin birth. I don't go along with much of what post-it had said along those lines except that affirmation of the virgin birth is not required for salvation. But this blatant (and literal) demonization of your theological opponent is beneath all of you.

Undoubtably someone will point to Jesus and say that Jesus called some of his critics the sons of the devil, but I think that Jesus had more insight than all of us put together and he also had the advantage of personally interacting with them -- not just reading posts on the internet.

Your attacks on post-it only reveal the weakness of your own arguments and the condition of your heart.

[ August 18, 2002, 01:25 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

Originally posted by post-it:

it made me understand that what I thought was wrong with Christianity was actually wrong with individuals and that no man knows what the Bible is saying except through the Holy Spirit. Their Faith in a Book and a God that can't be proven and with their acceptance of all the errors and mistakes, gave me the faith to stand on what the Holy Spirit tells me.

Don't be afraid of people who question the Bible, be afraid of those who don't. They have cost our faith more souls than can be counted.

Wow Post-it! You have made some very wise evaluations here. It is so true that we need to dig deeper into God's Word, and know for ourselves what it has to say.
The Bible can stand on it's own. There is no need for anyone to feel intimidated by anyone having questions .
Scripture tells us not to lean upon our own understanding, and if we really believe that The Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth, there should not be a problem I would only have a concern about questions that would lead to becoming an Agnostic. We cannot depend upon our own intellect all the time. There are times that we just need to say, Jesus said it, and I accept it. I questioned so many things, but there were issues, such as the virgin birth that was never in question. There is just too much proof in the scriptures. Along those same lines, I give anyone liberty to question this. I can prove it with the scriptures, and I can tell you it is true until I am blue in the face! Yet, until the Holy Spirit reveals the truth, you would just be taking my word for it, and my interpretation of the scriptures. Remember*until there is a conviction of need, there will be no conviction for change. ( I read this a long time ago in a book, but I cannot remember who said it) LOL!
I am just saying that we all need to be as wise as serpents yet gentle as doves, and be secure enough in our Faith that it can withstand being questioned. As long as we also come as children, and just accept alot by Faith alone .
Naomi

 

But that is a problem. I don't think there is any "question" that can lead one to becoming an agnostic. It is answers that lead to agnosticism. But answers must be given because the lack of answers can also lead to agnosticism. Of the answers provided, each will lead a certain number of people to a false conclusion (agnostics).

You claiming a virgin birth will lead some to agnosticism, while my answer that there was no virgin birth will lead others to agnosticism. Then again, your answer will lead some to Christianity, while my answer will lead others to Christianity.

Recently I talked to a homosexual that was about to leave the faith entirely. My answers to him about sin and homosexuality kept him in. Some will look at that and say that I used the Bible to give him permission to be gay and now he is lost. While others will say used the Bible to give him permission to be gay so now he will be saved and maybe he will change later or maybe he is forgiven just as gluttons and gossipers are forgiven. This knife cuts both ways. I just have a real problem with not admitting that problems exist and we need to admit they exist and can be dealt with "within" the Church before people drop out of the faith.

Faith is the basic requirement but faith is based on some basis of knowledge and understanding. Saying that Jesus said it and I believe it is not having faith in Jesus, it is having faith in the editors of the Bible. That kind of faith is never wise to use. My faith in the Bible is, as a whole it is correct and true, but as parts it has problems that have to be doubled checked and supported strongly. It is also a living book, therefore open to interpretation through the Holy Spirit.

 

Originally posted by post-it:
But that is a problem. I don't think there is any "question" that can lead one to becoming an agnostic. It is answers that lead to agnosticism. But answers must be given because the lack of answers can also lead to agnosticism. Of the answers provided, each will lead a certain number of people to a false conclusion (agnostics).
True, there is no "question" that can lead one to become agnostic, but on the other hand, if one would have to question ones Faith in God , and what is really true, how could we possibly go into all the world and preach the gospel, if we were not 100% confident that it is truth? Jesus does not want us to be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine, and be in a state of confusion. There are also some things we cannot answer, but because we know God's character through the scriptures and through the Holy Spirit, we can believe the impossible. Virgin birth, the resurrection, and eternal life to name a few. I am not saying that having questions is the same thing as questioning your faith, but there have been many occasions that I have witnessed to Atheists who refuse to accept anything by Faith alone, because it interferes with their intellect. They need to realize that we cannot even understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. Either all the bible is 100% accurate, or none of it is.
How can we possibly be in a position to pick and choose what scriptures to believe, and which ones not to believe? 2Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is inspired by God for teaching, correction and training in righteousness."


You claiming a virgin birth will lead some to agnosticism, while my answer that there was no virgin birth will lead others to agnosticism. Then again, your answer will lead some to Christianity, while my answer will lead others to Christianity.

Jesus was100% God and 100% man. He had to be to show us the way of salvation. If He were not born by the Holy Spirit (just as we are born-again by the Holy Spirit) He could not have made the claims that He did. To teach anything else would make one question the very Deity of Jesus.

Recently I talked to a homosexual that was about to leave the faith entirely. My answers to him about sin and homosexuality kept him in. Some will look at that and say that I used the Bible to give him permission to be gay and now he is lost. While others will say used the Bible to give him permission to be gay so now he will be saved and maybe he will change later or maybe he is forgiven just as gluttons and gossipers are forgiven. This knife cuts both ways. I just have a real problem with not admitting that problems exist and we need to admit they exist and can be dealt with "within" the Church before people drop out of the faith.

 

I don’t see where that would be a problem given that we can’t have 100% confidence in anything, yet we still promote it. Example: We don’t have 100% confidence in knowing that chemotherapy is the best treatment but it is the closest we have found to the truth, therefore we can and should promote it. Its ok, that we don’t have 100% knowledge or confidence that it is the best thing to do. What is would be wrong is to say, “Chemotherapy is the best and only answer to this type of cancer so don’t ask about improving it or looking for alternatives.”

I don’t think this statement can be supported by scripture. Even Peter was confused as he denied Christ.

Please don’t misunderstand my stand, I’m not saying I don’t believe this or that because it isn’t natural, I believe in the supernatural and have said, Jesus could have been born from a virgin, what I’ve said is that the virgin birth story is in doubt due to possible manipulation in scripture. It looks to have been an “add in”. It just doesn’t fit well and is suspect. On the other hand, I have no problems with resurrection etc.

While I have heard this for the last 30 years of my life, I have yet to find any scripture that would support such a statement. I know everyone would like for the Bible to be 100% correct, but since it is not, this type of statement programs people mentally to “reject” all the Bible when they suddenly find some mistakes or errors. This is bad theology and I wish our members would stop using it.

Inspired yes, but not written by God. Not compiled by God, and not edited by God. So this helps to explain why I believe the Bible (the inspired part) but will pick over it in an attempt to discern what parts are wrong or misleading due to man’s influence.
You are also saying that understanding the Bible should be easy, but it is not, even if you accept everything as true, you then have some real problems to deal with, to the point that if I thought I had to believe the Bible is 100% God written, I would have to discount the entire thing. Of course this is not the case since nowhere in the Bible does it claim to be absolute words from God.

I believe you are again jumping to conclusions about what causes the Deity of Jesus. No one can know that since it wasn’t addressed in scripture. It sounds like it makes sense, but you are only speculating. Again, there is no real support for the requirement of a virgin birth which further casts doubts on the traditional myth.

I have to strongly disagree with this statement. Otherwise you could also believe in the Koran and not have any reason not to. No, all faith must have a basis before faith is created. Example: Can you have faith that if you drop a bowling ball, it will fly into the clouds? No, it is impossible to have faith that it would unless you have some other fact that would support it. Faith is not “hope”, Faith is “trust” that something will happen or is true. So what would be some basis to have faith that a bowling ball would float to the sky? If we are told that an invisible man would do it for us and we had some other proof that this invisible man exists, then we could have faith the ball would float. So you see, your faith that the whole Bible is true is based on other facts that show some parts of the Bible are true. But it may not be the wise thing to assume every part is fact when only a some parts have been proven. However, you can have faith that the whole Bible is true even if it isn’t.

Agreed, now to just figure out what he says is what this post is about. You say it is obvious, I say it is not so black and white.

But interpretation does change it, that is what interpretation is all about.

Well, I never have excused sin, what I do which you and others interpret as excusing sin is making factual statements about sin. For example you just said, that Jesus told the woman to “go and sin no more” but do you think she did not sin again? Now why did Jesus say such a thing if he knew she would continue to sin? Have you stopped sinning? If you died today as a Christian who continues in sin and a Gluttonous Christian died today because they couldn’t stop the sin of over eating, do you think you both will go to hell? So it is in carefully examining what is meant by sin and how we handle sin that makes a difference. I don’t happen to believe that anyone can “go and sin no more”. I think it was general direction given by Christ, but was not a requirement for eternal life or membership in the local Baptist church. We shouldn’t do things that will hurt us or others, but it doesn’t make a person a non-Christian to continue in sin.

[ August 18, 2002, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

ok so its not what the Bible says thats important its what the "HOLY SPIRIT" leads you to believe.sounds like sound theology!!?? isnt that why we have groups like the watchtower and the mormons? they didnt likethe fundamentals either so they were led by the SPIRIT to believe the scriptures the way they see them.And they see it wrong. If a person doesnt like what the scripture teaches they need to adjust not the Bible.This idea that we can have a savior thats not vigin born is from left field. its been said before but if Christ is not virgin born then he is a sinner and if he has sin we are all lost and on our way to hell {that has real flames}.lets see Mary was a loose women then and sleeping around but not with Joseph because "he didnt know her" till the were married.and the pharisees were right in John 8 :41 Jesus was born of fornication.but when they accused him of that he said that ye are of your father the devil. Poor Jesus slinging mud i guess he couldnt defend himself. Post it gets his line of thinking from the old german theology under a man named Gesenius and from C. Briggs and S.R.Driver both of whom were tried for heresy by the Presbyterian church. These men all felt the same way about the virgin birth. They know better now.As for me i will earnestly contend for the faith!

 

That's my Pastor!

"It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version

 

No, I never said that, you only see what you want to see in my posts. I follow the Bible just as you do, but when it is unclear about something or there are errors or problems, we must seek the Holy Spirit for answers, not listen to people like you who think they have the answers.

I would be proud to be among any group that any past church have hung, burned, or tortured to death. I would be in good company with Christ himself who was convicted of the same. It is your personality type that tends to spark the witch hunts down through history. Careful what you accuse others of.

 

I would add the caution to you, post-it, to be careful what you are getting 'burned' for...

 

I would add the caution to you, post-it, to be careful what you are getting 'burned' for...</font>[/QUOTE]I don't think one can prevent that, and live with a clear conscience. I say what I feel is true, to do otherwise would be a lie. Burning is the risk one must take.

 

But it's what Scripture says.

This smacks of Romans Chapter One....professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Post-it, here again you make a HUGE LEAP...since when does standing firm on the Word of God and what Scripture says make a WILD LEAP to "witch hunt mentality!?!"

This is just the kind of stuff that has the atheists & agnostics cheering in your corner and serves to leaven the whole lump of born-again believers. Shades of Harry Emerson Fosdick! And Romans Chapter One.

Color me disgusted with these WILD LEAPS into radicalism of the extreme!

This is the same crowd who would have us believe Mary Magdalene was the mistress of Jesus! GOD FORBID!

The virgin birth is one of the cornerstones of your salvation and mine, not just some "radical" Baptist doctrine, easily dismissed, as you would have us believe. What an insult to Almighty, Righteous, and HOLY GOD, this heresy!

1Cor.1
[27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;


Isa.7
[14] Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

And this Scripture below was written how many years later?


Matt.1
[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

 

That verse can be applied equally to your side also.

 

EXACTLY!!!

Pardon my shouting, but that's why these discussions are so important. Every day people pitch their faith because they think it is inextricably linked to a fundamentalist understanding of Christianity. It almost happened to me as well (in my adolescence).

Joshua

 

Joshua, Post-it, people may leave churches because they don't 'buy' into something, but no one ever left Christ for that reason or any other.

There are a lot of false Christians in churches in the West. They come and they go and when they come so does watered down doctrine and when they leave so does some of their money.

A lot of pastors prefer the money from what I have seen.

So while conservative churches may lose some people who do not like to be reminded of the fact that they have to give up this world for His, liberal churches flat out get in the way of folks' connection with the Christ who demands that.

Getting back to the subject of this thread, though, neither of you have answered why Joseph reacted the way he did to Mary's pregnancy. If he thought he might be the father, he would not have had it in mind to divorce her, but to marry her as soon as possible. So either Mary was virgin or a tramp. Your choice.