Voter fraud

[InTheLight]

1. If a candidate looses an election, by one vote; and one person voted by fraud - then one would be too much.

You didn't answer the question. You gave a hypothetical.

2. It appears you are saying that BOE should not maintain a list of registered voters.
Then I suppose voters would just show up on election day and vote on the honor system.

No, I'm not saying that there should not be a registered list of voters. When people register to vote, they must provide an address to prove they live within the boundaries of the voting district. The address can be verified by cross-referencing property records. In Minnesota if a person wishes to register to vote on election day and they are not a property owner someone must accompany that person and vouch for them as residing in the voting district.

I don't know how they do it in your state but in Minnesota when you ask to have a ballot they ask you your name and your address. Then they look it up in a big book with names and addresses in it. Then they require you to sign your name on the line next to the printout of your name and address.

As far as requiring people to carry ID is not the same as in Nazi Germany. Their purpose was was to control the movement of the people of Germany.
In the US, it is simply a means to ID an individual by proper authority.

Voting is a right. Why would someone need to have a government issued photo ID to exercise a constitutional right?

And yes, it has been mentioned before, but here in NY, many major stores REQUIRE a drivers license / DMV ID to purchase alcoholic or cigarettes. (even if that person is 80 years old!)
Do you believe those stores have a right to require ID?

Sure, it's a private business (which may be regulated) and owning cigarettes/beer is not a constitutional right.

If a person does not have State/Commonwealth ID, should he be prohibited from buying cigarettes,alcohol, or even - believe it or not - cough syrup!

Sure they should be prohibited if they don't appear to be over 21 years old. Same thing if a young black women shows up at the polling place and says her name is Ernest Hemingway.

BTW, could you please give examples of voter fraud technique? I can think of using dead people's names but what other types are there? Non-residents voting? Someone using a fraudulent address? Please give scenarios as to how someone could game the system and get away with it.

 

[InTheLight]

Voter fraud is a way of life in South Texas. It's a science here. That's the major reason almost every elected rep is a "D".

How is it carried out? Can you give examples?

 

[righteousdude2]

My thoughts....

Many here believe that voters should provide picture ID (and possibly w/address) at the voting booth.


But what about absentee voting! How do we know that a person voting via absentee ballot is actually:

A. the person voting?
B. living where he says he does?
C. competent to vote?

How do we insure a proper vote? Should members of the Board of Elections make visits thurout the year to insure the person requesting a ballot is still living, at the address listed or other valid concerns?

Thoughts?

Salty

...are that no matter how hard we try, there is going to be some amount of FRAUD in public elections. Personally, I can only hope and pray that it is so minimal, that it has no real effect on the outcome!

 

[Mexdeaf]

How is it carried out? Can you give examples?

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/headline/flashback-voter-fraud-persists-in-south-texas/

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Vote_fraud_in_Texas

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2670598/posts

It's been going on for years. Getting paid for your vote is not unusual- of course they don't pay cash but you get a free lunch and a ride to the polls and someone to help you push the 'right' (left :smilewinkgrin buttons. They make a show to 'prosecute' politiqueras but nothing comes of it.

 

[Salty]

1. If a candidate looses an election, by one vote; and one person voted by fraud - then one would be too much.

You didn't answer the question. You gave a hypothetical.

Actually, my example is not hypothetical.
Read this news story link from KTRK-TV

and be sure to read the very last line!!!

Voting is a right. Why would someone need to have a government issued photo ID to exercise a constitutional right?

Excellent questions - can anyone else think of an example of what you might need ID for to excerise a constitutional right?


Sorry, I could only answer one question - but I have to leave 2 minutes ago for work.

 

[InTheLight]

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/headline/flashback-voter-fraud-persists-in-south-texas/

Describes people bringing others to the polls and helping them with the process of voting. Are they influencing how the voter votes? Looks like it. Is that fraud? Unsure. In any event, I don't see how a photo ID would stop it.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Vote_fraud_in_Texas

Discussing mishandling of ballots and possible mail in voting fraud. Again, photo IDs would be useless against this sort of thing. There was an interesting bit about undocumented voter registration, but there was no actual voting fraud alleged.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2670598/posts

This article describes the practice of 'politiqueras' assisting voters to get to the polling places and then helping them vote. This is not illegal per se, but a proposed law would limit the politiqueras to only helping up to two people in this manner. Photo IDs? Useless in this circumstance.

It's been going on for years. Getting paid for your vote is not unusual- of course they don't pay cash but you get a free lunch and a ride to the polls and someone to help you push the 'right' (left :smilewinkgrin buttons. They make a show to 'prosecute' politiqueras but nothing comes of it.

 

[poncho]

Actually, my example is not hypothetical.
Read this news story link from KTRK-TV

and be sure to read the very last line!!!




Excellent questions - can anyone else think of an example of what you might need ID for to excerise a constitutional right?


Sorry, I could only answer one question - but I have to leave 2 minutes ago for work.

Constitutional right? Good one! :laugh:

Still living in the past I see.

 

[Havensdad]

Voter ID laws are neither constitutional, nor are they necessary or helpful. Bottom up cheating, such as voting on behalf of a dead person, is negligible.

MUCH more dangerous to the system, is TOP DOWN cheating. Why are we still using electronic voting machines that were shown in open court to be unreliable and easily manipulated? Why are voters being tricked, bullied, and ignored? What about the caucas shenanigans that the GOP establishment has pulled on us across the country, in order to keep normal grassroots folks out of leadership positions, and to keep their chosen Romney-bot in the lead?

Instead of having a voter I.D. law, why not make elections open? Make anyone who votes, have to fill out a ballot that includes their name, phone number, and ballot choices. These could then be posted online, and accessible to EVERYONE in a real-time, online tabulation. If you look online, and your vote is wrong, you file a grievance requesting it be corrected. If you saw someone online that had voted, and you knew they were dead, you file a grievance, submit a death certificate copy, and the vote is removed from the tabulation.

What on EARTH would be wrong with that?

 

[poncho]

A fine arguement! Too bad it'll fall on deaf ears, again.

How about counting the votes in public instead of sneaking off to secret locations or counting them behind closed doors? How about making sure the chain of custody is sound?

 

[Alcott]

Voting is a right. Why would someone need to have a government issued photo ID to exercise a constitutional right?

Good question. Why would someone need a government "social security card" to get a job? Why do I have to show an FAA license to an aircraft rental agency to rent a plane?

The idea that buying alcohol or tobacco or borrowing a library book are activities that a person must show he or she has met the identification requirements to engage in, while voting for government officials is not, is an incredible contradiction of logic civically, socially, and ethically.

 

[Havensdad]

Good question. Why would someone need a government "social security card" to get a job? Why do I have to show an FAA license to an aircraft rental agency to rent a plane?

The idea that buying alcohol or tobacco or borrowing a library book are activities that a person must show he or she has met the identification requirements to engage in, while voting for government officials is not, is an incredible contradiction of logic civically, socially, and ethically.

Those things are not fundamental rights. You don't have a "right" to a library card (the government, in fact, has no business stealing tax payer money to fund libraries in the first place). You DO have a right to vote.

 

[poncho]

You have a right to cast a vote. No telling where it goes or who it goes to after that.

 

[Alcott]

You DO have a right to vote.

You've said that more than once here. The constitution does not guarantee anyone the right to vote. If there is another source that guarantees that right, what is it?

 

[poncho]

You've said that more than once here. The constitution does not guarantee anyone the right to vote. If there is another source that guarantees that right, what is it?

The cartridge box.

 

[Havensdad]

You've said that more than once here. The constitution does not guarantee anyone the right to vote. If there is another source that guarantees that right, what is it?

Try BOTH Article I section II, and the fifteenth amendment.... "The right of citizens of the United States to vote..."

 

[Salty]

Try BOTH Article I section II, and the fifteenth amendment.... "The right of citizens of the United States to vote..."

Where in Article I, sec II does it say "Right....to vote"
unless I missed it.


The 15th says
"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude"

The 19th says
"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."

Actually, those two amendments do not give the right to vote - they only ensure a person is not denied the right based on the the conditions as stated above.

Actually prior to the amendments, women (for example) were not prohibited to vote by Federal law - possibly by state or Commonwealth - the 19th only, as stated above, states the right to vote cannot be denied based on sex.

 

[Alcott]

Try BOTH Article I section II, and the fifteenth amendment.... "The right of citizens of the United States to vote..."

Huh? Article I Section II establishes the House of Representatives and the only way in which it even alludes to a right to vote is using "electors" as a subject. And the 15th Amendment names 3 bases upon which the right to vote cannot be denied, as do 3 other amendments. A reason that right cannot be denied does not guarantee a right to anyone.

 

[Havensdad]

Where in Article I, sec II does it say "Right....to vote"
unless I missed it.


The 15th says
"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude"

The 19th says
"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."

Actually, those two amendments do not give the right to vote - they only ensure a person is not denied the right based on the the conditions as stated above.

Actually prior to the amendments, women (for example) were not prohibited to vote by Federal law - possibly by state or Commonwealth - the 19th only, as stated above, states the right to vote cannot be denied based on sex.

LOL. What wonderful logic. If I tell you "Your right to vote cannot be denied," I am acknowledging that you have a RIGHT TO VOTE.

Article I, Section II states:

"chosen every second Year by the People of the several States"


Not to mention the 26th amendment gives the "right to vote" to all persons 18 years of age and older.

Also, the 24th amendment forbids charging money for voting; so unless you are going to hand out I.D.'s for free, you would be violating this amendment, as well.

 

[Salty]

Article I, Section II states:

"chosen every second Year by the People of the several States"

Well, if you take that to the extreme
1) than children of ANY age should not be denied the right to vote.
2) than convicted prisoners should not be denied the right to vote
3) than a person who moved from California to Virginia the day before the election should not be denied the right to vote
4) then the mentally retarded should not be denied the right to vote
5) than illegal aliens should not be denied the right to vote

You see, all the above are people!!!

 

[Havensdad]

Well, if you take that to the extreme
1) than children of ANY age should not be denied the right to vote.
2) than convicted prisoners should not be denied the right to vote
3) than a person who moved from California to Virginia the day before the election should not be denied the right to vote
4) then the mentally retarded should not be denied the right to vote
5) than illegal aliens should not be denied the right to vote

You see, all the above are people!!!

Children are also denied the right to pursue happiness. That does not make it any less a right. By your definition, there are no rights, just privileges "graciously granted" by our government!