Waiting to have children after marriage

Headcoveredlady,
Thank you very much,
Dan

 

This tells me that the non-Catholic churches are more able to adapt to what is available than the Catholic churches. And what I mean by 'adapt' is, apply Scripture to the world we live in instead of living in the past. Obviously the other churches wouldn't have a ruling on ABC before it existed. But unlike the Catholic church they evidently realized it's totally irrational to say NBC is ok and ABC is not. Either it's ok to try to actively manage when you have children or it isn't. I'm still waiting for you to show from Scripture wwhy NBC is ok and ABC isn't.

That's totally irrelevant, imo. I don't care what they do or think. I care about what is Biblical.

If they eat meat, does that mean I am not supposed to? If they don't does that mean I should?

I don't decide what God wants from me by looking at non-Christian groups and doing the opposite

Then again, it's irrelevant to the church and to Christians. Obviously the church can have one without the other, since conservative Christian churches accept non-abortifacent ABC and do not accept abortion.

All irrelevant. Let's talk about Scripture and let's talk about Christians. The world does according to what they believe. They always have. So what?

Helen/AITB

 

"This tells me that the non-Catholic churches are more able to adapt to what is available than the Catholic churches."
ABC has been around since before the time of Christ. The Didache 2:2(circa 100) says that "you shall not use potions. You shall not procure abortion, nor destroy a newborn child." Now this is not inspired scripture but is accepted as an early church teaching. The "potions" refer to chemical contoctions that ended pregnancy or made pregnancy unlikely. In this case the adaptation was a complete change in moral teaching.

"Obviously the other churches wouldn't have a ruling on ABC before it existed." Well they did and taught so for about 400 years. If you read Catholic apologetic works prior to 1930 you find that there is little or no mention of birth control. Why? Well, everyone at that time, Protestant and Catholics agreed that it was wrong.
BTW, the Comstock laws and other laws prohibiting the sales of contraceptives were passed by Protestant legislatures, not Catholic.

"I don't decide what God wants from me by looking at non-Christian groups and doing the opposite." No but I don't take my moral teachings from groups that have a primary aim to kill people either.

"Obviously the church can have one without the other, since conservative Christian churches accept non-abortifacent ABC and do not accept abortion."
Non-abortifacient ABC leaves just barrier methods. I am not familiar with any churches other than the Catholic one that don't allow IUD, pill, Norplant, etc. I am sure some must exist someplace but if so I have yet to run across one. I have had some interaction with conservative Christians but have yet to come across one that was against the use of ABC--abortifaceint or otherwise. In fact, a good friend and Baptist I know hadn't ever heard that the pill can be abortifacient.

It is difficult to speak of the church when speaking of Protestant churches since many are independent and hence may have differing policies.

 

It seems to me that the quote you gave really is about abortion, not ABC, fwiw.

Anyway, how about we set that aside because I still don't understand how you can think NBC is moral and ABC isn't. Can you explain your own reasoning, please?

That's not really true, is it?

Anyway I would hold to what is Biblical and not be swayed just because some group that doesn't believe the Bible happens to hold to the same behavior.

Yes, I think so. So can you explain why they are wrong, please, if NBC is ok so therefore it IS ok to actively avoid conception?

Actually, I've heard several conservative Christians say they consider it unacceptable because it's abortifacent. On discussion boards. Maybe it depends who you talk to...

True. But most Christians who hold to the Bible being true and authoritative tend to reason similarly, from the Bible.

And btw, Merry Christmas!

Helen/AITB

[ December 24, 2002, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: AITB ]

 

Here is a link to a site that says where some churches stand on abortion...
http://www.pregnantpause.org/people/wherchur.htm

The Roman Catholic Church
has continuously and steadfastly opposed the legalization of abortion and has supported virtually all meaningful pro-life legislation and public policies. The bishops have testified before Congress on numerous occasions pleading for restoration of respect for all human life. The National Conference of Catholic Bishops has prepared several pastoral letters clearly defining the Catholic Church’s pro-life position. Most dioceses have active respect life offices and parish pro-life committees.
Many dioceses are beginning to establish Project Rachel programs to assist women (and men) who are recovering from postabortion syndrome. And a large number of dioceses also maintain hotlines and provide services to help women with problem pregnancies.

The Lutheran Church -- Missouri Synod (LCMS)
has passed a series of resolutions beginning in 1971 opposing abortion on demand and supporting the restoration of legal protection to the unborn child. It has urged all agencies of the LCMS to "continue to give testimony to its pro-life stance to all levels of government in the U.S." The LCMS has called for development of pro-life educational material for all age levels. The LCMS has vehemently opposed the so-called "Freedom of Choice Act" (FOCA) and strenuously supported the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (PBA Ban Act.)

The United Church of Christ (UCC)
has strongly supported the legalization of abortion since 1971. The UCC supported FOCA and strongly opposed the PBA ban to the point of joining the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League (NARRAL) in a statement affirming President Clinton’s veto of the PBA Ban Act in 1996. The UCC has also called for the church to support abortion in any national health care bill.

The Southern Baptist Convention
initially called for legislation in 1971 that would allow for the possibility of abortions under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe to fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother. In 1976, the convention changed its position to oppose abortions used as a means of birth control. In 1980, the convention strengthened its position by supporting legislation and/or a constitutional amendment prohibiting abortion except to save the life of the mother. In recent years the Southern Baptist Convention has taken an active leadership role in supporting pro-life legislation, including backing the PBA Ban Act and opposing FOCA and other pro-abortion measures. The convention has also developed a broad range of pro-life educational material for all levels, including a comprehensive pro-life Sunday school curricula and materials for Sanctity of Life Sunday in January.

American Baptist Churches
leaves abortion policy to local churches and individuals. A resolution adopted in 1988, updated in 1994 and accepted as current policy, "acknowledges diversity of ... convictions within our fellowship," making no distinction between those who believe that human life begins at conception (with the consequence that abortion is immoral), and those who believe it can be morally acceptable based on "compassion and justice." This relativism gives no protection to the unborn child, and little guidance to women and men who must live with the consequences of their choice.

Presbyterian Church in America (PCA)
"has taken a very strong pro-life position, believing that the unborn child is a human being whom God is creating." The position paper of 1978, which is also accepted as the current position, expresses a clear understanding of the sanctity of human life. "Abortion is the intentional killing of an unborn child between conception and birth. ... Scripture leaves no doubt about the continuity of personhood that includes the unborn child, and therefore, under the Sixth Commandment, prohibits shedding innocent blood." At the 1996 General Assembly, PCA strongly condemned partial-birth abortions "as a murderous and horrifying practice and a grave offense against almighty God," and petitioned the President and Congress "to act in accord with this Biblical standard."

The Presbyterian Church (USA)
historically opposed abortion. As recently as 1965, it said, "The fetus is a human life to be protected by the criminal law from the moment when the ovum is fertilized ... As Christians, we believe that this should not be an individual decision on the part of the physician and the couple. ..." In 1970 the PCUSA issued a study report which regarded abortion as help for unwanted pregnancies and in 1972 language regarding "personal choice" and "responsible decision" regarding abortion began to appear in church documents.
In 1983, the PCUSA General Assembly adopted a policy which affirmed abortion as a "stewardship responsibility." PCUSA today actively supports the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC, formerly known as the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights, or RCAR). In 1992, after restudying the issue, the General Assembly adopted a new policy which states that "there is a basis in our tradition not only for a woman’s difficult choice for abortion, but also for the preservation of the lives of the unborn because they are human beings made in God’s image." In 1997, the PCUSA broke with other pro-abortion churches to become the first major mainline denomination to take a position expressing "grave moral concern" about partial-birth abortions.

The United Methodist Church
began in the early 1970s to view abortion as a "choice". The United Methodist position in favor of abortion has been so strong that two of its institutions helped organize and affiliate with the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights. For many years RCAR used office space in the United Methodist Building which is located across the street from the U.S. Supreme Court. In both 1996 and 1997 the United Methodist Church publicly supported President Clinton’s veto of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act. While the 1996 United Methodist Church’s Book of Discipline still maintains a strong pro-abortion position, it now includes wording recognizing the "sanctity of unborn human life." It further states, "We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection."

The Episcopal Church
as late as 1958 held a strong pro-life position, stating, "Abortion and infanticide are to be condemned." In 1967, the 62nd General Convention of the Episcopal Church supported abortion law "reform," to permit the "termination of pregnancy" for reasons of life, rape, incest, fetal deformity, or physical or mental health of the mother. In 1982, the 66th General Convention condemned the use of abortion as a means of gender selection and non-serious abnormalities.
By 1988, the 69th General Convention had developed a position that stated, "All human life is sacred. Hence it is sacred from its inception until death." The statement goes on to call for church programs to assist women with problem pregnancies and to emphasize the seriousness of the abortion decision. In 1994, the 71st General Convention expressed "unequivocal opposition to any ... action ... that [would] abridge the right of a woman to reach an informed decision about the termination of her pregnancy, or that would limit the access of a woman to a safe means of acting upon her decision." In 1997, at the 72nd General Convention, the delegates approved a resolution that did not condemn partial-birth abortions but expressed grave concerns about the procedure, "except in extreme situtions."

The Evangelical Lutheran of Church in America (ELCA)
is a union of three smaller Lutheran denominations which merged in 1988. Each had different views on on abortion. In 1990, the ELCA adopted a statement that accepts abortion but only as a "last resort" in the most extreme circumstances. The statement goes on to say that it opposes abortion ist except in the cases of "clear threat to the life of the woman", "extreme fetal abnormality" incompatible with life, and in cases of rape and incest. Beyond these cases "this church neither supports nor opposes" other abortion-restricting legislation. At the ELCA's 1997 convention, a resolution to restrict ELCA funding of abortions to the three cases stated above was rejected 70%-30%. The ELCA funds elective abortions in the church’s health care coverage for pastors and professional church workers, and some Lutheran-affiliated hospital perform elective abortions.

Orthodox Churches
have consistently maintained strong opposition to legalization of abortion and support virtually all pro-life legislation. Various bishops and of priests have testified at hearings ty, and have attended pro-life conventions, rallies, and marches. The Orthodox Church in America made a public statement opposing President Clinton’s veto of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act.

Independent Bible Churches and Evangelical Churches
have usually maintained a pro-life position based on biblical teaching. Since these churches are not part of formal associations or structures, they do not have denominational statements or resolutions on the abortion issue. But the great majority would support pro-life legislation and oppose continued abortion on demand.
=========
Dan again......
Abortion and ABC are like any other moral issue in that once you accept it for any reason you soon will accept it for all reasons. Both gained acceptance based on hard cases (rape, incest, life of mother for abortion) (life of mother, too many kids, etc for ABC) Now ABC is enshrined as a right with compulsive coverage in some areas. Kids have a constitutional right to abortion while they need a parent's permission to have an aspirin at school. Abortion is firmly grasped my many churches and allowed in hard cases by others. Soon the hard cases will slide down the slippery slope and join their sister churches in error. Same for the ABC accepting churches. They have moved from "only in hard cases" to the current "it is the responsible thing to do." Soon their compassion will require the possibility of the abortion back up as well.

I must say I have been enlightened by this discussion.

 

Wow just peaking around some of these "brush" threads - and I just agreed with Bro. Adam

May God forgive me

Headcoveredlady - EVERY Good and Perfect gift comes from God?

That is such a misuse of Scripture and I hope this verse explains why

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

what What WHAT - Us evil men giving good gifts to our children !?! But that violates James 1:17

17. gift . . . gift—not the same words in Greek: the first, the act of giving, or the gift in its initiatory stage; the second, the thing given, the boon, when perfected. As the "good gift" stands in contrast to "sin" in its initiatory stage (#Jas 1:15), so the "perfect boon" is in contrast to "sin when it is finished," bringing forth death (#2Pe 1:3).

The fact that your husband provides for you is a good thing; a good gift - Something he does - It is motivated by love (hopefully) which is of God - but that does not negate his role in giving it to you

 

Ok, let me try this another way.

Q: Why can my husband work?

A: Because God gave him the means to do it.

Q: Who created our sustanence?

A: God.

Q: Who promised to provide our needs in Matt 6:33 if we were seeking first His kingdom and His righteousness?

A: God.

HCL

 

If that's your Biblical reason can you give me the verse(s) you're thinking of?

I think you are disregarding that thoughtful people don't change their position on an issue thoughtlessly.

Helen/AITB

 

Wait...

Stop...

When did this discussion become one on abortion? I don't know many if any Christians that promote the destruction of life. However, I know many Christians who promote the godly fostering of life by waiting to have children until they can raise them up in a godly home.

Shalom

 

"If that's your Biblical reason can you give me the verse(s) you're thinking of?"

That is called biblical observation.

"I don't know many if any Christians that promote the destruction of life."
No, but many allow it via the use of abortifacients and their acceptance of abortion for hard cases. Hard cases which soon go soft. See most mainline Protestant churches positions 50 yrs ago and you will see the same that you may hold now. But soon your church may follow down the slippery slope. Hope not, but once the camel gets his nose under your tent it is too late.

 

The phrase may be overused, but I have witnessed firsthand God providing for college students during my college days.

I knew many students who's very presence in school was a miracle considering their financial situation.

In fact, my father never made more than forty-five thousand a year and my mother never worked while I was in high school and college. Yet, my brother and I went to college at the same time for two years. My father also payed a mortgage, supported my mom and two younger sisters. But my father had faith that God would provide, and guess what, He did. My two younger sisters just finished college, so that's two more.

He also worked harder than any man I've ever known.

HeadCoveredLady is not quoting cliches, she is exhibiting faith.

Paul

 

Paul,
Thank you so much for sharing your testimony here. I was blessed to hear how God has worked in your family's life.

I too have seen God provide when it seemed there was no way. There was a time a while ago when we moved to a new area, my husband wanted a second car for himself. We also had many other expenses to be concerned about so this was just one more.

He kept telling me he was going to look for a car and we were going to pay cash, (we try to avoid debt.) I kept crying that we did not have any money to buy another car and we should not even try.

Well, right across the street from the hotel we were staying at there was a car for sale. We saw the price tag and it was a very good price. That day when I checked the mail there was a check for the amount of the car plus a few cents.

I have seen the Lord provide like this in many ways through my years as being His child.

HCL

 

I believe the Lord does provide for all our needs.......not our greeds.

One year I wanted to work with the Bible Club Movement in Philadelphia. The BCM accepted me as a worker, but the US government decided I could not take the job of a US citizen and therefore I could not work in the USA.

Determined, I made arrangements to pay the BCM one dollar per month to come to work. This satisfied the US government, but meant I would have nothing for school.

When I came back to Canada, I went straight to the registrar's office and said I would have to find a job to pay my tuition. He nodded in agreement and allowed me to register in advance.

He called me in the next day and said, "Your tuition, room and board and all your books are covered." As it turned out, the BCM decided to send a contribution to the college in my name. Yes, the Lord does provide.

I think we must be prepared to WAIT upon the Lord, and sometimes we must WORK with the Lord, but He does provide.

Cheers,

Jim