Waiting to have children after marriage

[AITB]

Originally posted by Bro. Adam:
On large families- I think it is wonderful for those who have large families and can afford it.

And I'd say it takes more than that, actually. I'd say if they can't care for each child emotionally as well as being able to provide food, clothes and a roof over their heads, then I can't see God being delighted that they have so many children...

I'm not saying they can't. I'm just saying if they can't...

Helen/AITB

 

[trying2understand]

It seems that many do not understand my point.

I did not say that a married couple is required to start having children immediately.

I did not say that a married couple must have as many children as fast as they possibly can.

What I did say is that if a couple goes into a marriage agreeing to not have chlidren for "at least five years",it may be a better idea to just wait a while before getting married.

IMO using drugs, surgery, of pieces of latex to prevent having children that would come from God otherwise is not cooperating with God's plan.

If one claims to have faith and trust in God, if one believes that God will provide what one needs, why such little trust when it comes to having children?

For that person, it seems that trusting God is left to situations where one doesn't feel like they have much control anyway, like when someone is sick. But the things that you feel you can control some how are no longer left to God.

Ron

[ December 10, 2002, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
IMO using drugs, surgery, of pieces of latex to prevent having children that would come from God otherwise is not cooperating with God's plan.

But, is it ok to for Christians to use drugs so we don't die from illnesses?

Helen/AITB

[ December 10, 2002, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: AITB ]

 

[IlovetheBible]

To each his own. If someone waits a period of time to get married then there is no way they will have these children you presume to think God want them to have. I really don't see you coming up with any good points...

[edited because I'm running on 2 1/2 hours of sleep and almost nothing I write is making much sense the first time]

[ December 10, 2002, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Bro. Adam ]

 

[SaggyWoman]

I have not spoken with my someday hubby about this, but I do not plan to use birth control when I get married.

THis is due to many factors, among which is that I am slowly passing child bearing years.

 

[Born Again Catholic]

Baptistforever

All of Christianity was united for 1900 years, teaching the evils of contraception. In the 1930's the Anglicans made an exception in extreme circumstances and soon most of Christianity abandoned the teaching. Contraception was illegal in some states as late as the 1950's.

One organization "The Birth Control League" was extremely successful in convincing the public that the decision to have sex and procreate children did not have anything to do with one another.

With that mindset established they went on to the next logical step. Abortion. If you just wanted to have sex and not have children why should you be penalized for it if your method failed, just get an abortion.

Ofcourse they had to change there name from the "Birth Control League" to "Planned Parenthood" as they all but won the battle among christians on contraception.

[ December 15, 2002, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]

 

[IlovetheBible]

Well...welcome aboard vocal new one.

Catholics have never really bothered to search the Bible out much on sex. Or so it seems, either that or they are just flatly ignoring the majority of what it has to say. But never fear! I'll provide you with some food for thought:

What is sex for?

-> Procreation: Genesis 1:28, Deuteronomy 7:13,14

-> Recreation and Release: Song of Songs 4:10-13, Proverbs 5:18-19

-> Communication: Genesis 2:24

Yes! Sex is for procreation, but the current Catholic view on contraception has done far more harm than good, as we can see in the 10-14+ children families where the parents can't afford the children and are on welfare, unable to raise up their children in a godly home.

And to think that Planned Parenthood came up with the idea is...uninformed. Contraception a sin? Not in the Bible, and the Lord Almighty is a good enough authoritative source for me!

 

[Born Again Catholic]

Helen

I just noted your post

"If you think it's wrong to avoid conception do you also think it's wrong to accept medical treatment if you're sick? Is that thwarting God's will also?"

I am not sure you have deeply thought about this comparison.

Medical treatment is designed to save a life.

Contraception is designed to prevent or destroy life.

The two are not similar at all one is pro-life one is anti -life. This is the kind of cultural brainwashing that Planned Parenthood promoted since its inception that fertility and pregnacy should be treated as a disease not a gift from God.

Bro Adam

Thank you for your welcome, I have been around for a while but don’t get a chance to post that much.

If you have time before I more fully address your post I am interested in knowing what contraceptive methods you believe are permissible and why? Am I safe in assuming you would be against all methods which cause women to have abortions such as the Birth Control Pill ? Although it is not its primary way of preventing conception the Pill causes the womens uterus to become uninhabitable through chemical means. A fertilized egg could not attach and the baby would be aborted. The women would only notice a slightly bloodier than normal discharge. Some studies estimate up to 8,000,000 chemical abortions per year are caused by the pill and most women never know.

I did want to clear up one other point. Contraceptive devices and potions have been around in various cultures since well before the time of Christ, I never suggested Planned Parenthood came up with the idea of contraception they were just a successful promoter of it just as they are a successful promoter of abortion not the inventor of it. In fact if some Christian groups hadn’t caved in on the issue of Contraception in the 1930’s the Birth Control League/Planned Parenthood probably would have never gotten the chance to promote it so successfully.

God Bless

[ December 15, 2002, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

So, then, you as a Catholic, would be against birth control, knowing that if you/your wife did become pregnant that the child would be severly damaged due to certain medications that you were on, so that you/your wife could remain healthy?

In your opinion, so it seems, that preventable damage shouldn't be damaged because you want to be intimate as a married man, and because you want to intimate as a married man you should use no form of birth control?

~Teresa~

[ December 16, 2002, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: baptistforever ]

 

[IlovetheBible]

BAC-

There are several different means of contraception. Whether one chooses to use a condom or a pill- the rate is about the same- only about 3% of woman get pregnant while using them. Using a condom is completely safe with really no chance of any medical problems, and if God decides you're going to get pregnant anyway- well there are no chemicals in the womans body to harmfully affect the fetus. The pill is also very safe to use. And I'm not talking about RU-486, the abortion pill! There are several pills that interupt the egg-cycle causing an egg not to be released. Also, it causes a buildup of a mucas membrane in the uterus so the sperm cannot travel very far upwards. So using the pill is not killing any eggs- which is not a soul anyway, merely preventing it from being released. I got this information from WebMD and the CDC websites.

The other means of birth control are early withdraw, though this isn't as effective, or having the mans or womans tubes cut/tied. This of course pretty much permantely renders the person sterile and only should be used if the couple no longer wants children.

Hope this helps some!

 

[Helen]

Isn't it strange that children, defined in the Bible as a blessing from the Lord, are a blessing we want to control? Like God doesn't know what He is doing?

Since when is our intelligence or timing greater/better than His?

Maybe questions about birth control should also be asked of the many, many women who have used it and who have ended up sterile as a result...?

 

[Born Again Catholic]

Teresa,

Yes. As christians we face many difficult situations which test our faith. It is similar to asking someone if they are against abortion even in the case of rape. Unequivocally yes. But just because a situation could make a moral choice more difficult it does not change the morality of the situation.

Saying that there are several methods of Natural Family Planning which would could be morally practiced in such a circumstance. The typically involve a virtue promoted throughout the Bible self-control.

God Bless

Dennis

 

[IlovetheBible]

Helen,

Yes children are a blessing from the Lord, and of course the Lord's timing is better than ours. But by saying that we can't make decisions for ourselves in our lives leads us down a very dangerous road. Similar to the snake handlers who believe you must hold to a poisonous snake and if it is God's will it won't bite you, or saying if you are sick, you can't get medical attention, because if it is God's will you will get better.

Notice that so far, I am the only one who has presented scripture for my stance so far. The Bible backs up our view. Sex is for procreation, no one doubts that. I want children for sure. Sex is also for please and release. There is no reason two people cannot get married, prepare a suitable home, and bring children into that home. Like you said- children are a blessing from the Lord.

Marriage is two people working towards the will of God. But this goes beyond sex and having children. To think of marriage in terms of sex is very narrow minded IMHO. There is so much more to it than that.

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by Helen:
Isn't it strange that children, defined in the Bible as a blessing from the Lord, are a blessing we want to control? Like God doesn't know what He is doing?

Since when is our intelligence or timing greater/better than His?

With all due respect, I don't think that's the issue. I see it more as "Is this an area in which God has given us freedom of choice and is happy for us to exercise it?" Because I do think He gives us that freedom of choice in various areas of our lives. I suppose the answer cannot be yes unless there are ways of limiting conception that are not inherently sinful.

Maybe questions about birth control should also be asked of the many, many women who have used it and who have ended up sterile as a result...?

If we're going to ask that question we ought also to talk to the women who died in childbirth, who weren't aware they could have chosen not to have baby after baby, or to stop when it became medically dangerous for them - but we can't, because they're not just sterile, they're dead.

As for your comments, BAC, you can think I've been brainwashed by Planned Parenthood if you wish. Nevertheless I've never been exposed to what they say so in fact it was coincidental if my medical analogy is one they use.

What I believe is that we need to seek God's will in light of what's available in the age we live in. The Bible doesn't address what man has invented in the last 2000 years. But that doesn't mean every invention is 'sinful'. God allowed them to be invented and the challenge to us, I believe, is to ask Him to examine our hearts and show us our motives for availing ourselves of such things. It seems to me that a husband who insists on physical intimacy with his wife and insists on no birth control even when they've been advised that another pregnancy for her would be life-threatening, is being rather selfish both towards his wife and his current children. I don't see how God can delight in that sort of behavior.

And I return to one of my original points - either most married Christians I know have used some sort of birth control or they aren't together much intimately (which is against 1 Cor 7) or they are unusually unable to conceive, based on the number of children they have.

And, I also think it's very sad when children grow up unloved because their parents had them but were not able or not willing to meet their normal emotional needs. God works all things together for good to those that love Him. But that never means 'so go ahead, be foolish and let God pick up the pieces'.

Having said that, I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from not trying to limit the number of children they have - you do as you believe God has led you to do! But I don't see them as 'more godly' than those who prayerfully conclude "We truly believe we can't manage more children than this". If that's lack of faith then - that's between them and God as far as I'm concerned. He can just their hearts and I'll let Him decide whether their motives are acceptable to Him or not. And...they will stand because He's able to make them stand...Romans 14 (Not that I'm calling them 'those whose faith is weak' - I'm saying this to anyone else who would designate them that way!)

Helen/AITB

 

[Born Again Catholic]

Bro Adam

Lets think about the medical information you presented.

You correctly state that the pill interupts the egg cycle and effects the sperms ability to fertilize the egg. You also state that 3% of the women using the pill get pregnant.

Do you see the incompleteness of what you found? If 3% of women using the pill get pregnant then you must realize that with some women on the pill the egg is released and is fertilized creating a human being? Do you believe that every fertilized egg/baby of women on the pill results in a known preganacy?

Obviously it does not . So what is happening when it doesn’t result in a pregnancy. What those sites failed to mentioned is that Birth Control Pills change the lining of the uterus making it inhospitable to life, making it difficult for a baby/fertilized egg to implant, instead it is aborted and a women only notices a heavier than normal discharge. Those few babies (the 3% you mentioned) that do implant with women on the pilll and lead to pregnancy are like those miracle babies who survive abortion attempts.

If you have a wife or family member on the pill see if they can get the pharmacist to give them a copy a the physicians guide for the particular pill they are on, the patients reference will not include the information that confirms this. The physicians guide will usually have language that refers to making implantation of the fertized egg more difficult. But sometimes they are hard to get.

There was one incredible protestant web site that took the time to post scanned copies of the physician guides for many popular forms of BC pills as well as scans of relevant medical text books and numerous studies. Their report was over one-thousand pages long, unfortunately I have misplaced the address but I did find one protestant site "Protestants Against Birth Control" which provides a little info. http://www.prolifewisconsin.org/bc1.htm.

But I am not against contraception just because the most commonly used types are abortafacients, I just happen to find those especially offensive. I am against all types of contracption. We will discuss Biblical support for this belief soon.

God Bless

[ December 16, 2002, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]

 

[Born Again Catholic]

In a video I watched Kimberly Hahn gave an example of another type of sinful behavior that is not so entrenched in our society that might be more helpful in understanding atleast a part of the Catholic prospective.

The Romans used Vomatoriums. They would get together with friends and family and gorge themselves on food, then go to a corner of the Vomatoriums and vomit it out in to a receptacle. Then they would go back and gorge themselves on more delicasies and repeat the process again and again. They were just trying to constantly satiate there selfish desires in eating these fine foods without dealing with the natural consequences of the action. How many of many of us would say this would be a moral or virtuous act.

This is similar to contraceptive sex. To avoid the natural purpose of God's gift of sex men "vomit" out there sperm in a selfish act just so he could enjoy the pleasure of the act without the natural consequences. All acts of contraception try to do the same whether the device catches the sperm into a receptacle(condoms) or destroys the sperm or the egg or a fetus or mames the linning of the uterus. Through contraceptive sex the world has created its own Sexual Vomitoriums.

Both acts designed to satisfy our selfish carnal desires, we do not praise the lord in performing such an act.

 

[Rev. Joshua]

Life is a precious gift from God, and it is not ours to control. Therefore, the next time I go skydiving, I'm not going to wear a parachute. I wouldn't want to imply that I know better than God when I should die.



Having children is a wonderful blessing, for which one sacrifices many other wonderful blessings. Some people should do it sooner, others later, many others never.

Joshua

 

[AITB]

Born Again Catholic, I have a question.

Is it sinful for a husband and wife to be physically intimate on days when it's not possible for the wife to get pregnant?

Helen/AITB

 

[Karen]

AITB has made a number of good points.

There are many women, including me, who have been told by their doctors that death was a real possibility from becoming pregnant again.
I would not have had an abortion if I HAD become pregnant, nor did we use methods that we had researched and had scruples about. However, we also used the common sense that we think God expected us to use. Modern medicine and birth control enables many married people to have more choices than celibacy or imminent death.

Karen

 

[IlovetheBible]

Here are the serious fallacies in your Catholic thought:

1) You see childbearing as a consequence. I see it as a blessing.
2) You see any idea of contraception as abortion. I see it as a well thought out decision. Abortion is the destruction of life. If there is no life to begin with, there is no destruction of life. Cells die in your body all the time. In fact you are shedding thousands of skins cells as you sit there reading this. An egg and sperm cell are just that. Cells. It is only when the two join and become a human do we have life.
3) The purposeful destruction of life is sinful (Though shall not kill). The appropriate preparation for life is not sinful.
4) I also find your equation of vomiting with two people becoming one to be disgusting and unbiblical. There is no comparison.