Waiting to have children after marriage

[Born Again Catholic]

Bro Adam

I tried to addreess your last post to the best of my ability, your comments will be in bold if I figure out how to do it.

Here are the serious fallacies in your Catholic thought :

If you find fallacies in the Catholic belief against contraception, then you find find the fallacies in the united teaching of all Christians for 1900 years until 1930, including Baptists. It is really not just a Catholic issue, and many non-Catholics groups are starting to reconsider and remember there previuos position on this.

Many on this board are Calvinists his commentaries on the subject are very strong. In fact if you look hard enough you can find writings of virtually all the reformers on the subject. All speaking out against contraceptive styles of sex.

1) You see childbearing as a consequence. I see it as a blessing.

Incorrect. When you follow the natural order of things the consequence is a blessing, in this case children. People who contracept are purposely trying to avoid a blessing from God children, why. The primary purpose of contracption is to avoid children, that may be to burdensome for you to deal with this is not Biblical thought. Throughout the Bible children (esp large numbers) and fertility are looked on as a blessing. Infertility and barrenness are looked on as accursed but you promote a theology in which it is a blessing for women to make themselves barren for extended periods of time. Why do you teach barrenness is a good thing?

2) You see any idea of contraception as abortion. I see it as a well thought out decision. Abortion is the destruction of life. If there is no life to begin with, there is no destruction of life. Cells die in your body all the time. In fact you are shedding thousands of skins cells as you sit there reading this. An egg and sperm cell are just that. Cells. It is only when the two join and become a human do we have life.

Incorrect. Apparently you haven’t read my posts. Rubbers would not be an abortafacient (cause abortions) but the Birth Control Pills most women are on do. Are you saying it is ok for a baby/fertilized egg to be aborted, If so how do you distinguish your beliefs from those who support abortion through the morning after pill, the net result is the same fertilized eggs are aborted from the mother for women taking normal birth control pills as well as the morning after pill.

3) The purposeful destruction of life is sinful (Though shall not kill). The appropriate preparation for life is not sinful.

Amen, but we would disagree on what is appropriate preparation. We are given a gift whereby we participate in the creation of being made in the image of God. No act of procreation can be successful unless God participates in the act. An egg and a sperm do not have a soul, this must come from God.

An act of love between two people which is open to the creation of another being which may give praise and glory to God is a beautiful act. And God in his wisdom makes such an act pleasurable for us but to take this gift from God and say “I only desire the physical pleasure from the act” is hedonistic, just like the Romans who used the Vomitoriums only desiring the pleasure from food. The position is anti-life.

Would you also consider sodomy a natural expression of love between a man and his wife or a sinful act? Christians prior to 1930 would put Sodomy and Onanism (contraceptive sex) in the same bucket, And act of selfishness whose primary purpose is carnal pleasure not to serve the Lord.

The Bible condemns every unnatural act of infertlile sexwhere a man’s seed is wasted in a selfish act designed to seek carnal pleasure rather than to serve God.

1)Male homosexual intercourse (Lev 20:13);13
2)Male/animal bestiality (Lev 20:15); 15 ".
3)Withdrawal (Wasting seed) (Gen 38:8-10).

Never is such an act of wasting seed in an infertile act blessed yet you promote it, why.

4) I also find your equation of vomiting with two people becoming one to be disgusting and unbiblical. There is no comparison.

Actually there is a strong comparison both are primarily designed to satisfy carnal pleasure rather than follow the natural order of things the Bible gives us an example of a similar sexual act Gen 38:8-10

Genesis 38
8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

Onan killed by God in Genesis 38:9-10 for withdrawing and thereby wasting his seed to avoid conception.

After changing the consistent teaching of all Christianity in 1930 some Christians have had to come up with a knew interpretation, as this is a problem verse for them. (In fact I believe Calvin specifically addresses this verse in his commentary on Genesis 38 in speaking against contraception) so instead they argue that Onan was killed for not giving his wife children , but this argument is reallly hollow as in Levirate law the punishment for this was a form of public humiliation not death see(Dt 25:7-10).

7 And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother.8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her;9 Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house.10 And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.

[ December 17, 2002, 03:59 AM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]

 

[IlovetheBible]

Good Evening.

Let's get started with addressing the Genesis problem. I figured we would end up addressing Onan at some point in time.

Genesis 38
8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

Onan recieved a command from Judah to be with his brothers wife so she would have children. He withdrew himself and because he did not fulfill that which Judah had asked him to fulfill he was killed. There are several problems to applying this idea to today and saying that because of Onan's sin, all contraception is condemned.

You have to remember that we are looking at a very different cultural time. If we are to hold that contraception is sinful due to this passage we must also hold that it is sinful for a man not to marry his brothers wife when he dies and cause her to bear children. Does the Catholic church hold to this? Likewise we must address all of the events in the Old Testament like this in equal stature- when something happens to someone in the OT we must also equally as much apply it to our lives. If contraception is sinful due to Onan disobeying Judah, then equally as much would it not also be sinful to send our Davids to fight our Goliaths? And while we are at it, should we also not be adhearing to all Levitical law?

Infertility and barrenness are looked on as accursed but you promote a theology in which it is a blessing for women to make themselves barren for extended periods of time. Why do you teach barrenness is a good thing?

I admit that if I was promoting barrenness as a blessing that would be wrong, but instead you are choosing to twist my words to meet what you see fit in your own mind that you believe I am saying.

Let me ask you this: Woman can naturally give birth to children by about the age of 14 (sometimes younger). Is it not dreadfully sinful by Catholic thought for a woman not to be married and birthing children by the time of her first period. To delay marriage is to promote bareness because the woman who is capable of giving birth is not.

Or let's look at this another way- each time a woman has her period an egg cell is being destroyed and another life is not being created. Is it not sinful for this to happen?

It is merely your person opinion that someone who chooses to get married and prepare an acceptable home for children is sinful. It is not the Bible that teaches this.

Are you saying it is ok for a baby/fertilized egg to be aborted, If so how do you distinguish your beliefs from those who support abortion through the morning after pill, the net result is the same fertilized eggs are aborted from the mother for women taking normal birth control pills as well as the morning after pill.

No. I am not saying it is okay for a baby to be aborted.

And God in his wisdom makes such an act pleasurable for us but to take this gift from God and say “I only desire the physical pleasure from the act” is hedonistic, just like the Romans who used the Vomitoriums only desiring the pleasure from food. The position is anti-life.

No it is not. I have already quoted the Bible clearly giving instruction that sex is both for procreation AND/OR for pleasure AND/OR for release. To desire to marry soley for the purpose of pleasure with no thought of ever giving birth you may possibly be able to squeeze a case from scripture that it is sinful, but even then you'd be pretty hard up to do so.

Would you also consider sodomy a natural expression of love between a man and his wife or a sinful act?

No, I would not consider it a natural expression of love. Let me ask you this- do you as a Catholic see any other purpose for a marriage than procreation?

The Bible condemns every unnatural act of infertlile sexwhere a man’s seed is wasted in a selfish act designed to seek carnal pleasure rather than to serve God.

Then you must also agree that each time a man and wife make love and do not bear a child it is a sinful act.

[ December 17, 2002, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Bro. Adam ]

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by Bro. Adam:
Then you must also agree that each time a man and wife make love and do not bear a child it is a sinful act.

Perhaps BAC thinks it's ok as long as they did nothing to prevent conception.

However, I want to know whether being physical intimate on days when conception is impossible counts as doing something to prevent conception or not and he/she has chosen not to answer that, so far.

Helen/AITB

 

[pdp27]

My wife has just gotten off the pill because of a couple of reasons, including the fact that it can cause abortions of a conceived egg. In fact, the morning after pill is nothing more than a high dose birth control pill.

I find it interesting that BAC is against all forms of contraception as a Catholic since almost all my information about alternative forms of contraception have come from Catholic websites.

We found a method that we are comfortable with as a form of contraception and are using it. And after we plan on having two or three children, we will continue to use it to prevent more unplanned pregnancies. If God decides to intervene and blesses us with more than we plan, my wife and I are perfectly comfortable with that.

Financially, it would be unwise for my wife and I not to plan for when and how many children we have if my wife is to stay home with the kids and we save for their college.

As far as sex without procreation being a sin, God says the marriage bed is undefiled(Heb 13:4). Also, Paul says it is better to be married than to burn(I Cor 7:8-9). Obvioulsy not because marriage itself curbs desire, but because the act of marriage does.

Just to restate, I am completely open to God changing my plan. If he blesses me with a child or children on his timetable, I would be overjoyed. But, there is nothing wrong with having a plan.

 

[Headcoveredlady]

PDP,
Funny you talk about financially not being ready for children. I was just teaching this to my children this morning. I was telling them how I thought before I was married and had children that it would cost tons of money to raise children. I learned it doesn't. Of course God promises in Matt 6:33 if we are seeking first His kingdom and righteousness all these things wil be added unto you, (food and clothing.)

It could cost alot to raise children but the Lord is so giving and generous. He has been to us. Breastfeeding is free, cloth diapers are the cheapest, (we do not use them but they are an option,) homemade clothes are not only beautiful but inexpensive, baby equipment can be bought at yard sales, friends from church usually are very generous when someone has a baby. God is so good! He does provide for His children.

HCL

 

[pdp27]

HCL,

Thank you for the tips and the encouragement. I'm sure in my mind, I'll never feel totally ready financially, but who ever is. That is where my faith and trust in God will take care of us.

I am more concerned with my wife staying home. It'll be tough, but I know it will happen with sacrifices.

Paul

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Amen Paul,
I want to cheer you and your wife on! You can do it. God will make a way. He has for us. My husband is not rich but God has given us the Word and shown us how to wise stewards of the money my husband works for. YOur wife can be a tremendous help BY STAYING HOME. In that she won't have to pay for work clothes, can shop cheaper, make food from scratch, no babysitters, no extra car, etc. God is good.

HCL

 

[Jette]

I was telling them how I thought before I was married and had children that it would cost tons of money to raise children. I learned it doesn't.

Hi HCL!

Wait until they start college! I won't tell you how much we've spent on my daughter's first two years of college, (you might faint, hehe) but to give you an idea of the expense, last semester her books cost $750 (and they were used books!) Arrrgghhhh!

Have a good evening,
Jette

 

[IlovetheBible]

Wow- you mean you pay for your kids to go to college. You must be very financially blessed. My parents have too many children to be able to pay for any of us to go to college so we pay for ourselves.

 

[Headcoveredlady]

If Jesus calls them to attend college He will also provide the money. My Jesus is a very rich man.

HCL

 

[IlovetheBible]

Relying on God for your needs is one thing. Waiting for a handout is quite another. As long as you are working for/towards your needs/goals, faith that Christ will provide is fine. He definitely gave me a good job- but I had to spend the countless hours filling out apps., turning in resumes and going to interviews.

[ December 18, 2002, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Bro. Adam ]

 

[Jette]

Hi Adam,

Nice to meet you. I've read of some of your struggles (I don't post much, but read often) and am very impressed with how you've sought God throughout.

I wish only the best for you and your future wife.

Anyway, yes, my husband and I decided when we had children that college was something we would hope to be able to provide if at all possible. Between student loans, scholarships (which my daughter works very hard to maintain) and money that we have saved since the birth of our children, we are able to help with college expenses. We only have two children and it's still a struggle, but one we gladly accepted when they were born.

My daughter has always wanted (I mean since she was just a tiny girl!) to be a veterinarian and we pray she someday accomplishes her goal.

Again, it was a pleasure meeting you, Adam.

Jette

 

[DanPC]

Brother Adam said "Using a condom is completely safe with really no chance of any medical problems, and if God decides you're going to get pregnant anyway- well there are no chemicals in the womans body to harmfully affect the fetus. The pill is also very safe to use. And I'm not talking about RU-486, the abortion pill! There are several pills that interupt the egg-cycle causing an egg not to be released. Also, it causes a buildup of a mucas membrane in the uterus so the sperm cannot travel very far upwards. So using the pill is not killing any eggs- which is not a soul anyway, merely preventing it from being released."

You may want to see the article by Pastor Alcorn on the birth control pill. He thought like you but investigated the pill and was very surprised to find out it can be abortifacient.
http://www.epm.org/bcp5400.html
I have read an insert for the pill from a friend and it says it works by 1--preventing ovulation 2--thickening cervical mucous 3--making lining of uterus thinner so implantation is less likely to take place.
Implantation takes place after fertilization--hence the pill can be abortifacient.
There is some evidence that condoms do have side effects. Apparently some women develop anti-bodies that make it more difficult to achieve pregnancy when they frequently use condoms. I'd have to look some more for that info.
Merry Christmas,
Dan

 

[DanPC]

Karen wrote "There are many women, including me, who have been told by their doctors that death was a real possibility from becoming pregnant again."

You might consider another doctor. I have a friend who has at least 4 kids after her doctor told her the same thing. She had cancer and heart problems but came through them fine. Doctors are averse to bad outcomes (lawsuits) and give advice that is frequently too conservative based on the facts. Very few women die in childbirth in the US and of those many of the deaths were not preventable.

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by DanPC:
Karen wrote "There are many women, including me, who have been told by their doctors that death was a real possibility from becoming pregnant again."

You might consider another doctor. I have a friend who has at least 4 kids after her doctor told her the same thing. She had cancer and heart problems but came through them fine. Doctors are averse to bad outcomes (lawsuits) and give advice that is frequently too conservative based on the facts. Very few women die in childbirth in the US and of those many of the deaths were not preventable.

Statistics mean nothing when it's your life at risk. It doesn't matter if it's as low as 1 in a trillion if you're likely to be that one.

I can see why someone like Karen wouldn't want risk to her life just because some other Christians think she and her husband are 'sinning' to use birth control...

Helen/AITB

 

[DanPC]

I believe the point is that dying during childbirth is very rare in the West and that doctors are anything but infallible in their predictions. In Karen's case the doctor may have been right. I would suggest a second opinion from a doctor that treats childbirth as a normal body function, not a disease or potential lawsuit.

Edited to add: If it is a sin then it would not be permissible even if the consequence were death, would it?

[ December 22, 2002, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: DanPC ]

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by DanPC:
I believe the point is that dying during childbirth is very rare in the West and that doctors are anything but infallible in their predictions. In Karen's case the doctor may have been right. I would suggest a second opinion from a doctor that treats childbirth as a normal body function, not a disease or potential lawsuit.

It sounded to me like you were trying to push her into finding a doctor who'd let her risk her life, just to satisfy the opinions of other Christians. But maybe I read too much into what you were saying. Yes, I know that doctors can be wrong. But with no knowledge of her own doctor or her condition, you are making a lot of assumptions to think all the doctor cares about is not getting sued.

Edited to add: If it is a sin then it would not be permissible even if the consequence were death, would it?

How about turning that around and saying, how can it not be a sin to ignore expert advice and go ahead and risk your life for no reason, since birth control is available? That's not very respectful to her husband, or children if she has children. We don't live in a vacuum, able to make our own choices regardless of the effect they have on the already born people around us.

One thing that irritates me about some pro-life people is that they can appear to value unborn babies more than the people who are pregnant. I think that sucks. I think Christians often have screwed-up priorities.

Helen/AITB

 

[DanPC]

How about turning that around and saying, how can it not be a sin to ignore expert advice and go ahead and risk your life for no reason, since birth control is available? ----

Well say Presdident Bush needed a heart to live as his is in bad shape. And you are the only match in the world that would work. Would it be a sin for you not to give yours up?
Wrong is wrong and circumstances can not make a wrong action correct--though they may limit culpabililty. If contraception is wrong no one can use it for any reason. (There are natural ways of avoiding pregnancy that are about 99% effective--she may have tried these. Plus they don't have the abortifacient quailities of hormonal birth control nor the moral aspects either)

 

[LAWC]

This ought to be a subject between a man and his wife and the LORD. We all agree to "keep the marriage bed undefiled" Heb 13:4. Sex is between a man and his wife and God, by telling others how they should decide on this issue is coming in between the marriage bed of someone else. My decision for or for not birth control is between my husband and God. Not you all.

 

[AdoptedDaughter]

Originally posted by abbeygal:
This ought to be a subject between a man and his wife and the LORD. We all agree to "keep the marriage bed undefiled" Heb 13:4. Sex is between a man and his wife and God, by telling others how they should decide on this issue is coming in between the marriage bed of someone else. My decision for or for not birth control is between my husband and God. Not you all.

While certain issues should be kept between man and wife, the discussion that was first at hand was a discussion about whether is it thwarting God's will (or a sin) to wait after marriage to have children (by usuing contraceptives)...

So, while how many kids, and when you have them may be something to discuss between you and your husband, the issue of contraceptives is one that can be discussed considering there are two views and one is that they are a sin....do you want to sin if you don't know something is sinful, but you're not aware of it? Well..that's the point to this thread. To discuss whether or not it is sinful.